Advice please for my Setup

[WhiteRhyno]

Hi all,

So I have just made the switch from BIAB to a 3 vessel, single tier setup, and I would appreciate some advice on the rig. I am 2 brews down, and I have a stack of questions so this will probably be long winded

The 3 vessel setup was a second hand one I found online, where the previous brewer was running it as a 3 tier, and I have now switched it to single tier, with the rig made out of some old office shelving I had laying about.
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Me being me, I decided to make it complicated, and I am running the S/S counterflow as a HERMS, run through the HLT via 1 of 2 25w pumps. I have started monitoring the temp before return to the tun via an inline thermometer (Calibrated against Thermapen)
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I have been continually recirculating through the HERMS, using a copper sparge ring to try and evenly distribute the sweet wort back in the mash tun. I dont have the flow cranked up at all, just a slight "dribble". I have found that I need to have the HLT around 4-5°C hotter than mash temp to counter for heat loss during the recirc. This also requires continual monitoring, which I dont mind at this stage, to ensure I dont go under or over on temp. I know a RIMS would make it a lot easier, but this is what I have for now.
Also running a FB in the tun
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I have been fly sparging, total time it took to sparge and ready for boil was 2 hours, 10Gal batch.

My first brew on this rig (biermunchers Centennial Blonde) went ok, just time consuming which is to be expected.
My 2nd brew was Timbrewz India Red Ale, where I thought everything was going along swimmingly, with my temps bang on (66°C) throughout the mash, PH spot on (5.3, I also use water additions), and a mashout of 76, where I use the HERMS to bump it up (HLT @ 82ish)
Thing is I missed my OG by something chronic. Aiming for 1.060 pre-boil, was 1.053. Ended up OG of 1.058 post boil (should of been 1.068).
I had 80% eff dialled into Beersmith, ended up more like 68% I will dial it back to 75% next time which should help with some consistent numbers, but I was expecting better.

I have been trying to think where I have gone wrong. Questions as follows:

1. Could it be channelling in the tun. Copper ring sits just below or on wort level.
2. Is there an issue using the HERMS setup I have, where I am heating the wort up too much before it gets back into the mash tun.
3. When I am recirculating, whats a good flow rate? Just a light flow, half open or full bore
4. Am I taking too long to fly sparge? If so, would that affect efficiency??
5. Regarding the type of counterflow chiller I have, anyone have efficiency issues with this model when using it to chill? I am not blown away with it at all. I also have a S/S immersion that I chuck in at start of knock out, then when it is down to 30°Cish, I then put it into an ice bucket inline with the counterflow, but it then takes ages to get down the last 10°. Seems the immersion is doing most of the work. Ground water temp is around 22°
6. Regarding my BK, where should my pickup be? I guessing I might have it too low? Basically it is hard down. Transferred a stack of trub into the ferm. Should it be rotated up slightly higher?View media item 70789
7. Given I am running a HERMS, is it best to stay with the single infusion, or have a more varied mash schedule?
8. Am I on the right track with the setup. Any other pointers you might have would be appreciated

I probably have a stack more questions, but that will do for now.
Appreciate any valuable insights you all can give.

Cheers
Ryan

 

[SEndorf]

I just posted a similar scenario on a different thread.
Your only two brews in to Beersmith on a new system.
You missed what Beersmith predicted, so the immediate (and logical response) is "Where did I screw up??"
Before you over analyze your errors, consider that Beersmith is software. And like all software it's GIGO. (Garbage in garbage out)
First concentrate on the setup inputs in beersmith. Improper volumes, boil off, PBV, trub, losses, etc.. etc... will drastically change what is presumes to predict as your gravities.
Usually it will take several brew sessions to dial this in. Don't take Beersmith as gospel until you're confident it's set up to your unique system and processes.

 

[WhiteRhyno]

Thought I had my volumes fairly down packed, although my boil off does seem to be under than what is actually happening.

That said, I am compensating for temperature differentials with my volume numbers. Now I am thinking Beersmith factors this sort of thing in as well, so may end up with a discrepancy. Would I be better to just measure with the ruler, then do a standard volume calculation?

 

[Deadalus]

2. I don't know, I have my Herms coil in the HLT. But an interesting question. Can you stick a small dial thermometer in the return flow from the counterflow coil? Also, can you fill up the coil with water and then measure the volume? You could then estimate how fast the nash is passing through the coil. Not sure if that's helpful.

4. Going slow is helpful usually. I use a Phil's sparge arm, which is a rotating sprayer arm. I get really good efficiency I feel with it. Looking at your ring, I am guessing that a slow rate is merely light dripping and the sparge water may not be migrating throughout the bed. Are you keeping a layer of water on top, 1-3 cm? I go as slow as I can to keep the arm spinning and sparge until I hit my preboil volume.

6. That's where mine is. I do get a bit of trub, but it is at least mostly out of the trub that collects in the rounded bottom.

 

[WhiteRhyno]

2. I don't know, I have my Herms coil in the HLT. But an interesting question. Can you stick a small dial thermometer in the return flow from the counterflow coil? Also, can you fill up the coil with water and then measure the volume? You could then estimate how fast the nash is passing through the coil. Not sure if that's helpful.

4. Going slow is helpful usually. I use a Phil's sparge arm, which is a rotating sprayer arm. I get really good efficiency I feel with it. Looking at your ring, I am guessing that a slow rate is merely light dripping and the sparge water may not be migrating throughout the bed. Are you keeping a layer of water on top, 1-3 cm? I go as slow as I can to keep the arm spinning and sparge until I hit my preboil volume.

6. That's where mine is. I do get a bit of trub, but it is at least mostly out of the trub that collects in the rounded bottom.

2. I don't know, I have my Herms coil in the HLT. But an interesting question. Can you stick a small dial thermometer in the return flow from the counterflow coil? Also, can you fill up the coil with water and then measure the volume? You could then estimate how fast the nash is passing through the coil. Not sure if that's helpful.

4. Going slow is helpful usually. I use a Phil's sparge arm, which is a rotating sprayer arm. I get really good efficiency I feel with it. Looking at your ring, I am guessing that a slow rate is merely light dripping and the sparge water may not be migrating throughout the bed. Are you keeping a layer of water on top, 1-3 cm? I go as slow as I can to keep the arm spinning and sparge until I hit my preboil volume.

6. That's where mine is. I do get a bit of trub, but it is at least mostly out of the trub that collects in the rounded bottom.

Cheers bud.
Yeah not sold on this counterflow chiller, really interested to hear from others that have this type

Always try and keep a layer on top of the mash. I keep the manifold under the layer a little to try and minimize splashing, although maybe I am overthinking this part...

I do have a chronical which helps, dump out over the course of a couple days when the thick sludge settles.

Appreciate your input bud, helps being able to talk your setup over with others

 

[brewdude88]

Fly sparge is a pita and leads to inconsistency. I have had some success with it, but I can get a consistent 80%+ with a simple batch sparge ( I do recirc the batch sparge to clear wort and heat to 168F). I have found a refractometer very useful to watch the batch sparge gravity to let it recirc until it has maxed on what it will pick up in fermentables.

This has decreased my brew days by 1 hour easy.

Just my .02 cents worth.