Advice on all grain equipment.

[Remos112]

After a lot of succesfull extract brews I decided to take the plunge into AG. brewing but I need some advice.

My local brewshop has an incredibly good deal on a all grain starters kit
This kit is 349 euro's and contains literally everything to start a AG brew.
However I am a bit worried about the brewing kettle. It is an Arsegan 27L 2000W unit with thermostat.

Is this enough power for a 24Liter boil size? It does not seem like a whole lot of power.
Also the wort cooler is a plate heat exchanger with 12 plates, is this enough to quickly cool +/- 24 liters in respectable time?

Alternatively I am think about a 230V 3000w induction plate, but the heater alone is 149 euro's so te complete setup would be a lot more expensive.
But if it gives much better results I am willing to invest some more I could go for a bigger wort cooler too if this would be recommended.

I'll look forward to your opinions/suggestions.
Thanks in advance
Remi

 

[z-bob]

2000W is not much. I recently bought a 1650W immersion heater to supplement my kitchen stove that was having trouble bringing about 20 liters to a boil. The stove plus the heater easily boils 24 liters now, but if I turn off the stove the heater by itself can't maintain the boil.

On the other hand, the Arsegan kettle might be insulated, and that makes a big difference.

 

[dyqik]

I don't think you'll get a lot of responses here, as this kind of kettle is very uncommon in the US, where most of the posters here are from.

I guess the kettle is this one?

That should be OK, although a little slow to get to the boil. Insulating the kettle and keeping the lid on should help it get up to temperature quicker. You could boil with the lid partially on (open enough to let some steam and DMS escape), but 2 kW should be enough to get reasonable boil-off from an open, insulated kettle. I run my kettle at about 2.2-2.4 kW, uninsulated and open, to get 10-15% boil off in an hour. You won't want to boil hard on a 24L batch, because boil-over is a real risk in a kettle not much bigger than your batch.

The plate chiller sounds a little undersized, but the area of the plates matters as well as the number of them.

 

[Remos112]

2000W is not much. I recently bought a 1650W immersion heater to supplement my kitchen stove that was having trouble bringing about 20 liters to a boil. The stove plus the heater easily boils 24 liters now, but if I turn off the stove the heater by itself can't maintain the boil.

On the other hand, the Arsegan kettle might be insulated, and that makes a big difference.

Thanks for your reply! The insulation of the kettle is a good point, I'll try to find out if they already did that.

 

[Remos112]

I don't think you'll get a lot of responses here, as this kind of kettle is very uncommon in the US, where most of the posters here are from.

I guess the kettle is this one?

That should be OK, although a little slow to get to the boil. Insulating the kettle and keeping the lid on should help it get up to temperature quicker. You could boil with the lid partially on (open enough to let some steam and DMS escape), but 2 kW should be enough to get reasonable boil-off from an open, insulated kettle. I run my kettle at about 2.2-2.4 kW, uninsulated and open, to get 10-15% boil off in an hour. You won't want to boil hard on a 24L batch, because boil-over is a real risk in a kettle not much bigger than your batch.

The plate chiller sounds a little undersized, but the area of the plates matters as well as the number of them.

Thanks, that's the kettle indeed, it goes under the name Brewferm as well. I guess they are all the same just rebranded. Hmm sounds like it should work fine. perhaps just buy the set and see how it goes? I can always upgrade in the future. Also the 24l is based on a 23 L all grain kit I've seen for sale, I usually do about 20 Liter fermentations to keep some headroom in my 25 Liter fermenter.

 

[augiedoggy]

The size and most importantly the length of the plate chiller matters most... A 10 plate shirron chiller cools as well as a shorter 30 plate chiller... The shorter chillers are cheaper so that what a lot of people sell.

 

[Remos112]

I don't think you'll get a lot of responses here, as this kind of kettle is very uncommon in the US, where most of the posters here are from.

I guess the kettle is this one?

That should be OK, although a little slow to get to the boil. Insulating the kettle and keeping the lid on should help it get up to temperature quicker. You could boil with the lid partially on (open enough to let some steam and DMS escape), but 2 kW should be enough to get reasonable boil-off from an open, insulated kettle. I run my kettle at about 2.2-2.4 kW, uninsulated and open, to get 10-15% boil off in an hour. You won't want to boil hard on a 24L batch, because boil-over is a real risk in a kettle not much bigger than your batch.

The plate chiller sounds a little undersized, but the area of the plates matters as well as the number of them.

Thanks, that's the kettle indeed, it goes under the name Brewferm as well. I guess they are all the same just rebranded. Hmm sounds like it should work fine. perhaps just buy the set and see how it goes? I can always upgrade in the future. Also the 24l is based on a 23 L all grain kit I've seen for sale, I usually do about 20 Liter fermentations to keep some headroom in my 25 Liter fermenter.

 

[Remos112]

I went ahead and ordered the kit, there was a 2nd option wich costed 30 euro's more, but it had a 24 plate cooler instead of the 12 plate cooler.
If all goed well I will have my first all grain brew going this weekend.
I ordered an Arsegan all grain kit "Duvels nat" (The devils juice) As it has every ingredient sorted and it has a clear step to step manual. I will let you guys know how it turns out. I for one am very excited

 

[stz]

I've a little 20 plate 44kW heat exchanger. I'm sure it is one of those, though it might be actually be little larger, 24 plate or something? The take home message is while most people would consider it quite undersized for chilling wort in a single pass at full speed and I know one guy with the same who added a second chiller, under real world use that isn't actually a problem for me.

It will whirlpool quite happily at full speed getting me down to 85C-79C in under 10 minutes on a 50L batch and throttled back on the pump will allow me to fill FV's at a rate of around 3L per minute straight down from boiling to 19C for pitching. I don't consider 20-30m to collect irrespective of a whirlpool (the whirlpool simply means I can collect faster and use the same amount of water overall) to be a problem.

The water coming out of the plate chiller is between 60-70C. For me, while I understand that ideally it comes out at the same temperature as the wort for maximum efficacy, this isn't the end of the world. The price jump on larger models is crazy. Also everybody saying size and thus surface area and contact time is more important than number of plates is correct.

 

[Remos112]

I've a little 20 plate 44kW heat exchanger. I'm sure it is one of those, though it might be actually be little larger, 24 plate or something? The take home message is while most people would consider it quite undersized for chilling wort in a single pass at full speed and I know one guy with the same who added a second chiller, under real world use that isn't actually a problem for me.

It will whirlpool quite happily at full speed getting me down to 85C-79C in under 10 minutes on a 50L batch and throttled back on the pump will allow me to fill FV's at a rate of around 3L per minute straight down from boiling to 19C for pitching. I don't consider 20-30m to collect irrespective of a whirlpool (the whirlpool simply means I can collect faster and use the same amount of water overall) to be a problem.

The water coming out of the plate chiller is between 60-70C. For me, while I understand that ideally it comes out at the same temperature as the wort for maximum efficacy, this isn't the end of the world. The price jump on larger models is crazy. Also everybody saying size and thus surface area and contact time is more important than number of plates is correct.

I will only do small batches for now, and haven't really thought about how to control the temperature. I guess putting a thermometer in front of the outlet and use the tap-valve as a throttle? This plate cooler however advertises as being capable of cooling 40-50 liters of wort in about ten minutes. Should be fine for my +/- 20 liter batches I would think.

 

[stz]

Yeah you can get fancy installing probes and things.

I've got a female threaded T piece on the hot side of the outlet of one counterflow plate chiller with a threaded thermowell screwed into one side with the probe connected to a PID which gives live display of the output temperature.

The original plan was to use the PID to also regulate pump voltage and flow rate to automate maintaining a steady temperature, but as the fermenters are jacketed with individual heating and cooling lines you get read temperature there and can throttle the input pump manually with a ball or gate valve. 9/10 it is set right from habit with only minor adjustment to suit.

I tend to hang another probe in the kettle and use the discrepancy between the two to get an idea of where I am when recirculating. Like if I shoot for a constant 83C on the outlet I'll usually find I stabilise at 85C in the kettle, but now I know the system better it isn't as essential, I just recirculate with the cold water on until I'm 2C below my target temperature. Switch off the cold water and make my additions while still recirculating and once that is done and the lid is on switch off the pump for the desired duration.

But yeah, a T junction is a really easy way to fit a thermowell if you are bothered. It is also a really snazzy way with a valve to fit a low level bleed for the system if you are going with fixed hose or hard pipe.

 

[johnwpowell]

Be prepared that it may not end at 349 as after each brew you will probably want something else or upgrade something that came in the starter kit. The only regrets I have is spending more on things because I bought the cheaper version first and then replaced it with something I'd be happy with for many years. If you are sure about this hobby then consider investing. If you are still testing the waters, get the kit.

 

[Remos112]

Be prepared that it may not end at 349 as after each brew you will probably want something else or upgrade something that came in the starter kit. The only regrets I have is spending more on things because I bought the cheaper version first and then replaced it with something I'd be happy with for many years. If you are sure about this hobby then consider investing. If you are still testing the waters, get the kit.

I do realise this, and you are probably spot on, the plan is to do my first brew on sunday just to get the hang of it, get familliar with the equipment and such. and to see where the restrictions of this kit lie, good change is things will be upgraded along the way

 

[Remos112]

So today was brewing day and I learned a lot. I started with crushing the grains in a mill, and this turned out to be a lot more work then I expected. Then the mashing. I mashed in 20l of strike water as per instructions. And I heated another kettle with 5 l sparge water thinking this would be more then enough to reach a boil size of 24 liters. Boy was I wrong. After the sparging I noticed the kettle was way to empty to be even 20l (the kettle has no scale of any kind so this was just guessing) So I decided to run some extra (colder then ideally) water through it until I felt comfortable it would be close to enough. Then the boiling which went without a problems, the cooling went pretty well too, as long as I would let the fluid go through slow enough. I ended up with +/- 18 liters of 1060wort, target was 20 liters 1064 so not to far off target Og.

Two important lessons I learned today, I need alot more sparging water next time, and I need to create some kind of measuring stick to see how much fluid really is in the kettle.

I will let you know how the beer turns out when it's ready!

 

[Remos112]

I took a hydrometer sample today and it went from 1.060 down to 1.008 in less then a week. Very pleased with this progress, the sample smelled amazing too. Will let it sit 2 more weeks in the fermenter before bottling but I'm looking forward to it already!

 

[Gravity]

If it comes standard with the kit wouldn't worry to much about it. It may not be the most desirable, however it will get the job done. I think at this point you're probably looking for experience and to transition into AG. You can always buy individual components yourself and build your own system as most of us have done over the years.

 

[Remos112]

If it comes standard with the kit wouldn't worry to much about it. It may not be the most desirable, however it will get the job done. I think at this point you're probably looking for experience and to transition into AG. You can always buy individual components yourself and build your own system as most of us have done over the years.

Spot on! I did my first brew with the kit last week and already I have learned a lot! have another kit planned for next week, and the 22nd I have a "Kwak beer clone" day scheduled. This will be from scratch, but I am thouroughly enjoying it, (it is time consuming though).

 

[65C]

And I heated another kettle with 5 l sparge water thinking this would be more then enough to reach a boil size of 24 liters. Boy was I wrong. After the sparging I noticed the kettle was way to empty to be even 20l (the kettle has no scale of any kind so this was just guessing)

I use 34.5L for a 5KG grain to get 23L

strike with 2.5L for every 1KG grain - so 12.5L for 5KG, with strike water at 77C to get to 68C mash

I'll then do two 11L sparges at 77C

that will give me 29L in the boiler, I'll lose 4L in the boil and 2L in the hops (I usually give them a squeeze to get the last bit out)

carboy finishes up around 22-24L and I'll get 35+ bottles or something from that

 

[MSK_Chess]

After a lot of succesfull extract brews I decided to take the plunge into AG. brewing but I need some advice.

My local brewshop has an incredibly good deal on a all grain starters kit
This kit is 349 euro's and contains literally everything to start a AG brew.
However I am a bit worried about the brewing kettle. It is an Arsegan 27L 2000W unit with thermostat.

Is this enough power for a 24Liter boil size? It does not seem like a whole lot of power.
Also the wort cooler is a plate heat exchanger with 12 plates, is this enough to quickly cool +/- 24 liters in respectable time?

Alternatively I am think about a 230V 3000w induction plate, but the heater alone is 149 euro's so te complete setup would be a lot more expensive.
But if it gives much better results I am willing to invest some more I could go for a bigger wort cooler too if this would be recommended.

I'll look forward to your opinions/suggestions.
Thanks in advance
Remi

In my opinion 27 litres is borderline. Most recipes are for 23 litres, you will probably lose 4 to 5 litres during boil so for a typical 23 litre batch you will need at very least 27 litres pre biol wort. Sure you can always readjust the recipes, but you will be making 20 litre batches for sure. 2kw is ok. I have a 2.4Kw concealed element in my mash tun/boil kettle and its holds a very splendid rolling boil. Essentially its a converted tea urn with a false bottom. It holds thirty litres MAX. What else do you get for your 350 euros?

This is my 30L 2.4Kw boiler here which cost a mere £80 (91 Euros) All I did was take out the tap and fit a ball valve.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004EAERSS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Remos112]

Good info guys! I ordered myself another all grain kit called oak royale for practice. I also ordered ingredients for a following up brew all by myself. Very excited by the new way of brewing. Ps, bottled my last partial boil extract brew today. The end of an era, but it feels good!

 

[65C]

Remos - I found kits expensive and underwhelming (too few hops) - buying some grain and some hops was <50% the price - also once I started getting the components I could start to change the recipes to what I want

 

[Lefou]

Agreed.
I've never bought a complete kit.
Even when doing extract, all my ingredients were purchased individually. Some online providers of kits are nice enough to advertise their grain bills and yeasts before buying and I've compared their ingredient choices with mine. It was a learning experience, especially when learning what grains went into certain styles.

 

[johnwpowell]

I disagree. Northern brewer recipe kits are the same price as buying the ingredients.

 

[MSK_Chess]

By buying in bulk one saves a fortune on shipping.

 

[Remos112]

Remos - I found kits expensive and underwhelming (too few hops) - buying some grain and some hops was <50% the price - also once I started getting the components I could start to change the recipes to what I want

Exactly what I am planning for later brews. I've seen what bulk grain costs and it put a big smile on my face!

 

[65C]

Exactly what I am planning for later brews. I've seen what bulk grain costs and it put a big smile on my face!

kits got me to 40-50% of my normal shop bought beer costs

moving to bulk got me to 20%

I'm re-using yeast cakes, not doing any water mods except ph but using more hops than in most local bottled beers and in the kits

the biggest upside is that I'm now making some brews which are just how I like them - very bitter and earthy with no caramels - it feels good I can produce that from local tap water for 1/5th the price I was paying before and it gets me away from a screen for a few hours

 

[Kharnynb]

looking nice, for brewing and estimating boil/final sizes, software works well, I tend to use brewersfriend free windows "app".
https://www.brewersfriend.com/windows/

Bonus is that it has better Finnish and german grain lists than most commercial software.

As for those electric kettles, they are much cheaper if you buy them from german Amazon, where they are sold as gluhwein heaters.

 

[Remos112]

Thanks for all the feedback guys! The kit I have ordered was 24,95(euro's) and will make 20 liters of Oak Royale beer. It has everything needed including very clear instructions wich I think is a pretty good deal, and a lot cheaper than extract. The brew after that will be a Kwak-clone and I already ordered grains hops the lot. this is cheaper still. Will post some pictures in the future if all goes well!

 

[Remos112]

Took another hydro sample and the beer fermented all the way down to 1.004 og was 1.060, I am very pleased with this result. The manual says siphon it to a secondary and put it away in a cold spot for a few weeks to "lager". I don't have a strong desire to do this as it could airrate or infect the beer. Would putting the primary in a cooler place for a week be a good idea? Or should I just let it be and bottle it after 3 weeks primary like I usually do.

 

[Lefou]

Wow, looks like you got a nice, dry result!
Personally, I never keep my ales on the yeast more than three weeks, but that's because I don't have the capability to refrigerate before bottling and I drink the beers without much aging. My approach to certain styles might change if I had a means to lager.
If you don't want to refrigerate, you don't have to.