Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[zwiller]

Sadly i have never seen RO or distilled water around these parts in europe sold in big quantities. (i could get distilled in pharmacies for like 15$ per gallon but that is too expensive) (also RO machines are almost unheard here, i am jelly in so many ways of you US guys)

On the other hand this lime method looks pretty good. I am planning a brewday on the weekend, should i try this alkalinity reduction method with heat (boiling) instead of lime until i can get food grade lime?

Does the CaCl or CaSO4 into water to get enough calcium ---> 10 minute boil ---> 1 day settling time ---> racking from the top method works?
The lime method looks much cheaper and easier but pickling lime is quite rare here and i only found chemistry shops selling it.

Sorry glue, didn't know... Lime is the way to go, even if it's pricey as a little goes a long way. Your strategy for boiling looks sounds but the actual reaction is not perfect. How hard/long to boil, reaction requires CO2, etc. Yes, the Ca salts should easily dissolve and help the reaction. I only tried lime and even that was "fun". Some more info: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=5792.0

 

[rideincircles]

Subscribing. My initial take on reading this thread would be to use some cultured HF yeast and see what can be duplicated, and how it differs in comparison to 1318 in a side by side batch.

I would do that if I could, but HF is a little too far of a drive from Texas. Even if I stayed with my brother in DC, it would still be a 9 hour drive. I don't see any chance of making it up there anytime soon.

Aside from that, I am just starting on adjusting my water profiles and plan on a 10 gallon batch of a heady clone next so I have been taking a lot of notes to upgrade my brewing processes for this one. I will probably knock out a porter after that and plan on trying 1450. I used that once way back, but have much more knowledge and better processes now.

If there was a TLR for this thread, what would be the best summary? 2:1 chloride to sulfate ratio works well, 1318 is close but not exact to the HF yeast, mouthfeel is the main goal with these hoppy beers with lots of hops around 170 degree hop stand.

I will come back to this thread for my next IPA, but I think I need to dive back into the Heady discussion otherwise its an information overload since water chemistry is new to me. I will be kegging an extract 20 minute APA tonight that I am using Conan yeast on and it had a 30 minute hop stand. My last version of it got me 1st at bluebonnet out of 42 pale ales, but I continue tinkering with it and want to see how it differs with those changes. I plan on going all grain in my next few batches, it was just the easy option to brew after Burning Man.

Keep at it.

 

[Colbizle]

Subscribing. My initial take on reading this thread would be to use some cultured HF yeast and see what can be duplicated, and how it differs in comparison to 1318 in a side by side batch.

I would do that if I could, but HF is a little too far of a drive from Texas. Even if I stayed with my brother in DC, it would still be a 9 hour drive. I don't see any chance of making it up there anytime soon.

Aside from that, I am just starting on adjusting my water profiles and plan on a 10 gallon batch of a heady clone next so I have been taking a lot of notes to upgrade my brewing processes for this one. I will probably knock out a porter after that and plan on trying 1450. I used that once way back, but have much more knowledge and better processes now.

If there was a TLR for this thread, what would be the best summary? 2:1 chloride to sulfate ratio works well, 1318 is close but not exact to the HF yeast, mouthfeel is the main goal with these hoppy beers with lots of hops around 170 degree hop stand.

I will come back to this thread for my next IPA, but I think I need to dive back into the Heady discussion otherwise its an information overload since water chemistry is new to me. I will be kegging an extract 20 minute APA tonight that I am using Conan yeast on and it had a 30 minute hop stand. My last version of it got me 1st at bluebonnet out of 42 pale ales, but I continue tinkering with it and want to see how it differs with those changes. I plan on going all grain in my next few batches, it was just the easy option to brew after Burning Man.

Keep at it.

Most commercial brewers (I'd wager 5BBL and up) can't do hopstands below 200F.

CL/S04 ratios are IMO crap since 200:100 SO4:CL would not taste the same as 20:10.

Not sure if 1318 being the answer but could be close? Pulling dregs is tough since the yeast are sometimes stressed and could be mutated by the time you harvest/populate them. He may be using his own mutated version at this point. Who knows?!

 

[kevink]

Most commercial brewers (I'd wager 5BBL and up) can't do hopstands below 200F.

Can you elaborate on that? I have no experience with commercial systems, but I'm curious.

 

[Colbizle]

Can you elaborate on that? I have no experience with commercial systems, but I'm curious.

Ya for sure. My friend owns a brewery in southern minnesota and I go down there and help when I can. At the commercial level the mass size of the kettle and immense surface area of the wort doesn't allow the wort to cool down much less than a few degrees once they kill the flame or steam. So for example, on his system after the boil is over, we cut the flame, toss in the whirlpool addition hops and then we use a big mash paddle to get the whirlpool going. He also has a pump that aids the whirlpool as well. We whirlpool for about 15 minutes so we can get a nice tight trub cone in the middle of the kettle. Then after the whirlpool is over we let the wort rest for about 20-25 minutes to settle everything out. By this time the kettle is still reading about 211-210F. Then after the rest we proceed to "knock out", so we hook up the heat exchanger and start pumping the wort through it which has a backflow and oxygen stone hooked up to it. It takes him up to 2 full hours to completely knock out and by the end of the knock out the remaining wort in the kettle is still above 200F. After that we hookup a corny filled with fresh yeasties and pump that into the tank and then start cleaning. OMG there's so much cleaning haha.

But one could ask, why not just run the wort through the heat exchanger after knock out and then do the whirlpool (you know like us homebrewers can do)?. Well for one, you do not want to risk clogging the heat exchanger, it has a sh*t load of plates and if you clog that sob you'll spend the next 2-3 hours taking it apart and cleaning every plate and putting it back together all the while your precious wort is sitting above 200F. So I'd assume most other commerical breweries forgo that and just do a big whirpool addition and/or use a hopback as well.

But every brewery's operations are slightly different and this is just the way my friend's brewery does it.

Hope that helps.

 

[kevink]

Hey, thanks! I guess with that equipment it's not possible, but what if you had just one more vessel? Knock out directly to the other vessel but only slightly cool the wort to 140 or 150, or whatever you're going for, and then do your hop stand. After the hop stand, make one more pass through the chiller on the way to the fermentation vessel. It seems doable if you have another vessel, I would think.

 

[mbbransc]

I'm pretty sure HF pasteurizes and rep itches bottling yeast. Don't think you can harvest from their bottles. At least not current bottles.

 

[brewski09]

I'm pretty sure HF pasteurizes and rep itches bottling yeast. Don't think you can harvest from their bottles. At least not current bottles.

I've heard the same

 

[Callacave]

I'm pretty sure HF pasteurizes and rep itches bottling yeast. Don't think you can harvest from their bottles. At least not current bottles.

I think what people are referring to is Shaun's hoppy beers, which are not bottled, and use a regular sacch strain. Making it difficult because of how little yeast you could harvest from a growler. Shaun only bottles his Saison/Farmhouse Ales, and the occasional Porter or Imperial Stout.

If I remember correctly he said they used have the same microbes in the bottled Farnhouse beers that were from fermentation/souring, but a while back switched to something else for carbonation/conditioning.

Never heard of them pasteurizing before re-pitching, and I have my doubts, but it could be possible.

 

[mikeroesoft]

The closest I've come to an HF beer wrt flavor, color and mouthfeel is this...

Mash at 158F for 60mins raise quickly to 168F and hold for 10-15 mins
Target OG = 1.053 - FG 1.013

6.5 gallons - efficiency is unknown - 60 min boil
86% Fawcett Pearl
10% Weyermann Carafoam
4% Weyermann Munich (next time I will try C10 as I think it will be closer to the real deal)

0.1oz Galaxy 14.8%aa @FWH
0.1oz Galaxy @60mins

Whirlfloc and servomyces @ 15mins

5oz of Galaxy @FO, lid on, hold 10 mins begin cooling. Took 35 more mins to get to pitching temp with IC in August when tap water was 69F

rehydrated US05

Ferment at 64F for 14 days

3.5oz Galaxy at dry hop - *key* Transfer from primary to purged dry hop keg via auto-siphon into 'beverage out' post. Fill slowly from the bottom up. (See Bear-Flavored DH keg contraption). DH under 30psi of pressure for 5 days. Transfer by pushing beer with CO2 via the 'out' post of DH keg into 'out' post of purged serving keg. Force carb.

Water profile
Ca=65ppm
Mg=10ppm
Na=45ppm
Cl=90ppm
SO4=130ppm

mash pH 5.29 @ room temp.

The color and aroma of this beer was very much in line with HF style pale ale. The mouthfeel requires a little tweaking but is pretty close. Next I will try C10 instead of munich. If that doesn't do it, then I will start reducing the SO4 and increasing the Cl but need to keep Ca very close for pH purposes. For salts, I find less is more when making a delicate beer. I have learned that the hard way.

For the record I have tried high chloride and didn't care for it. I have also tried 1318, Conan and WLP007. US05, with the method I described above gave me good results.

 

[Braufessor]

3.5oz Galaxy at dry hop - *key* Transfer from primary to purged dry hop keg via auto-siphon into 'beverage out' post. Fill slowly from the bottom up. (See Bear-Flavored DH keg contraption). DH under 30psi of pressure for 5 days. Transfer by pushing beer with CO2 via the 'out' post of DH keg into 'out' post of purged serving keg. Force carb.

+1^^^^

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/09/how-i-dry-hop-my-ipas-with-no-oxygen.html

 

[Mer-man]

Did anyone try oats?

 

[gotbags-10]

Did anyone try oats?

Uh yeah been discussed at length in this thread

 

[RunDadRun]

You can call me lazy or just ignore me....but pouring through 53 pages of developing narrative is tough. I have followed this thread for a couple months and really just have one question...

For those who have chased this goal a while...what kind of water profile are you targeting? Any general concensus?

 

[jammin]

You can call me lazy or just ignore me....but pouring through 53 pages of developing narrative is tough. I have followed this thread for a couple months and really just have one question...

For those who have chased this goal a while...what kind of water profile are you targeting? Any general concensus?

Chloride heavy is the theme with fairly low sulfate. Most of this has been hypothesis and reported results have been mixed. I'm sure others will be able to chime in with a more insight than myself

 

[irishrover32]

I think around 100 cl 60 sulphate and 140 chloride, and then whatever bicarbonate u need to hit 5.35 mash PH that's wat I took from braufessors post who said it worked well for him I used that on my last brew so I'll se how it goes.

 

[Braufessor]

I would say post #276 has pretty much what I have been doing in exact detail. Not saying it is perfect or anything.... but I have been pretty happy with the beers. Hoping to do some more experimenting over the next 2-3 months when I have a little more free time.

In general though -
Calcium in the 100 range
Chloride in the 120-140 range
Sulfate in the 60-70 range

Using Lactic Acid (2-3 ml in 5 gallons of mash water) (1-1.5ml in spare water) for pH purposes as I have not been starting with 100% RO..... usually 60-80% RO and the rest is carbon filtered tap water that is high in bicarbonate.

I have been getting Mash pH in the 5.35-5.45 range

 

[irishrover32]

I would say post #276 has pretty much what I have been doing in exact detail. Not saying it is perfect or anything.... but I have been pretty happy with the beers. Hoping to do some more experimenting over the next 2-3 months when I have a little more free time.

In general though -
Calcium in the 100 range
Chloride in the 120-140 range
Sulfate in the 60-70 range

Using Lactic Acid (2-3 ml in 5 gallons of mash water) (1-1.5ml in spare water) for pH purposes as I have not been starting with 100% RO..... usually 60-80% RO and the rest is carbon filtered tap water that is high in bicarbonate.

I have been getting Mash pH in the 5.35-5.45 range

thanks braufessor i tried this on mY

 

[irishrover32]

I would say post #276 has pretty much what I have been doing in exact detail. Not saying it is perfect or anything.... but I have been pretty happy with the beers. Hoping to do some more experimenting over the next 2-3 months when I have a little more free time.

In general though -
Calcium in the 100 range
Chloride in the 120-140 range
Sulfate in the 60-70 range

Using Lactic Acid (2-3 ml in 5 gallons of mash water) (1-1.5ml in spare water) for pH purposes as I have not been starting with 100% RO..... usually 60-80% RO and the rest is carbon filtered tap water that is high in bicarbonate.

I have been getting Mash pH in the 5.35-5.45 range

thanks braufessor i tried this on mY LAST IPA SO LOOKING FORWARD TO TRYING IT ILL KEEP YOU POSTED woops caps lock

 

[Roadie]

In general though -
Calcium in the 100 range
Chloride in the 120-140 range
Sulfate in the 60-70 range

Your chloride/sulfate ratio is basically 2. I've historically used .19 (50 chloride and 267 sulfate) for IPA's so this is a new concept for me and I'll have to give it a try. This reversal is supposed to still enhance hoppiness while giving the beer a more silky mouthfeel?

 

[irishrover32]

Your chloride/sulfate ratio is basically 2. I've historically used .19 (50 chloride and 267 sulfate) for IPA's so this is a new concept for me and I'll have to give it a try. This reversal is supposed to still enhance hoppiness while giving the beer a more silky mouthfeel?

as said before hoppieness depends entirely on the amount of hops you add to the beer. I think its apparent now that mineral additions dont enhance malt or hop but in fact alter the mouthfeel making it sharper or creamier. i think people like the idea of a sharp crisp hoppy beer and believe creamieness is just for stouts but infact they can be interchanged to make some great different beer.

 

[RunDadRun]

I just wanted to say thanks to anyone who responded. I know that in some forums it is cardinal sin to ask or re-ask questions without checking previous forum posts for answers. Just another sign that the HBT community rocks.

 

[Braufessor]

Your chloride/sulfate ratio is basically 2. I've historically used .19 (50 chloride and 267 sulfate) for IPA's so this is a new concept for me and I'll have to give it a try. This reversal is supposed to still enhance hoppiness while giving the beer a more silky mouthfeel?

I have done that ratio as well..... with 50ish chloride and 250 Sulfate. It makes a good/great IPA. Probably more traditional - crisp, assertive hop presence.

I think the 2:1 Chloride: Sulfate tends to make a more rounded, smoother hop presence. Personally, I think it works well with a full, rounded mouthfeel type IPA.

I would not say it is necessarily "better" than the traditional approach. But, it is different, and I like it..... as do lots of other people.

 

[TxBigHops]

You can call me lazy or just ignore me....but pouring through 53 pages of developing narrative is tough. I have followed this thread for a couple months and really just have one question...

For those who have chased this goal a while...what kind of water profile are you targeting? Any general concensus?

By the way, if you don't want to have to page through 50+ pages, you know you can change your default to 40 posts per page. Makes some of these monster threads a bit more manageable to me.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I just spent a ton of time catching up on this thread. I should maybe not leave it so long next time. Here's my thoughts on all of that reading:

- We probably can't all exactly replicate HF's mouthfeel every time. I'm happy with very good, and I think there's enough in the thread to get there.
- So what if HF (et al) don't do it? Adjuncts, maltodextrin, carapils - go to town. Make it work for you!
- Braufessor is the man!
- Yeast is probably the biggest factor you can use to improve mouthfeel, there's several options (including Conan, London Ale III (1318), Antwerp Ale), and there are probably even more good options we haven't hit on yet.
- Carbonation disappeared as a theme, but I still think it matters. And I'll take that to my grave!

Only thing we have here in the Midwest is zombie dust.

Most egregiously offensive post ever. There are so many kick ass IPAs in the Midwest that I can't even. Can't. Even.

 

[jammin]

Most egregiously offensive post ever. ... Can't. Even.

 

[brewski09]

Most egregiously offensive post ever. There are so many kick ass IPAs in the Midwest that I can't even. Can't. Even.

Thank you

 

[gotbags-10]

Sorry maybe should've clarified. At least in Indiana that's the only big IPA. Sure there's Bells, goose island , Founders and a few others but nothing that blows me away. all the Big famous ones are on the east and west coast. I didn't know I had it in me to make the most offensive post ever! [emoji3]

 

[Barley_Bob]

Sorry maybe should've clarified. At least in Indiana that's the only big IPA. Sure there's Bells, goose island , Founders and a few others but nothing that blows me away. all the Big famous ones are on the east and west coast. I didn't know I had it in me to make the most offensive post ever! [emoji3]

I guess it is pretty easy to be offensive on the internet.

There are some extremely good IPAs here. Zombie Dust (and others by 3F) obviously, and of course Founders and Bells. But there's a lot more going on, and I don't think it'll be long before folks are talking about the "big famous ones" here. Revolution's flagship Anti-Hero is fantastic, and it headlines several other excellent options. Spiteful's Selfies are for Wieners blows me away (seriously that good), and Half-Acre has some great options by all accounts (I've only had a couple of their's, and they weren't their best). Domaine Dupage's Wobble is very good, and rates very well. Tallgrass is not my favorite of the above, but it doesn't stop me from buying 8-Bit on occasion, and I know it has a loyal fan base. If you haven't had some of these, then let me be the first to tell you - you have bright days ahead, my friend.

 

[Braufessor]

- Braufessor is the man!

Ha! Speaking of offensive posts....