Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[The_Glue]

Made a 1.075 IPA with 5% crystal, 10% wheat, non-flocculating yeast and damn i think it will look pretty ugly in the glass, i think only light yellow beers look pretty when murky. I am thinking about gelatin fining but i wonder what will happen to the mouthfeel.

 

[kaz4121]

Hop haze is principally tannins and proteins formed in the mash that are bonded with polyphenols from dry hopping. Some of that haze will also be yeast+proteins, iso-alpha, and other organic compounds. However, as a whole, hop oils do not contribute to mouthfeel or haze in the same way that these other compounds do. A clear beer (pre-dry hop) is not an indication of a lack of yeast, protein, or tannin in suspension; the haze produced after dry hopping is evidence that those compounds were present in the original beer.

Why is this important: hop haze is not an indication of pure hoppiness or hop oil concentrations, as some breweries would have us believe. Actually, a lot of that haze contains compounds that detract from the overall hop character of the beer. Some of the perceived "hoppiest" brews actually have moderate oil concentrations, but have high amounts of polyphenols, humulinones, iso-alpha, organic acids, yeast, ect, that mimic what we think of as hop flavor. A certain IIPA from Vermont is the poster child for this. We can test this via GCMS and HPLC.

Ideally, we'd be all be making our IPA's clear if we really cared about hop oils. Cloudy beer has more to do with production limitations than what is actually better for the taste of the product. Lastly, the longer you dry hop, the more polyphnols you get.

So to translate; hop haze is, in fact, due to polyphenols binding with tannins and proteins and not due to excessive hop oils? AND this binding (read: haze) can actually detract from the overall hop oil impact?

 

[Leeds1]

Brewed this Thursday the 24th.

10lbs. Superior Pale Ale Malt
1.75lbs Flaked Oats

Wyeast 1318
OG 1.049

1oz Magnum FWH
1oz each of Simcoe, Mosiac and Citra Hopstand at 170 for 30 minutes.

Used distilled water and added salts back to it for:
Calcium-87
Magnesium-8
Sodium-43
Sulfate-68
Chloride-128
Bicarbonate-115

This thing took off like a rocket and blew the stopper before I got a chance to put a blowoff tube on it. I've never had a beer start this fast.

3 days fermentation at 62F then moved to 70 and added another oz each of Simcoe, Mosiac and Citra while primary is still active. Hoping to move this to a keg by Thursday/Friday and will keg hop with 1oz of Mosiac and 2oz. of Citra. This is the first time I've ever played with water chemistry and I'm hoping this thing turns out awesome, I know it smells good right now.

 

[zwiller]

So to translate; hop haze is, in fact, due to polyphenols binding with tannins and proteins and not due to excessive hop oils? AND this binding (read: haze) can actually detract from the overall hop oil impact?

Yes, that is my take on it, but not everyone agrees (last sentence of study). http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2010.tb00788.x/pdf

 

[Gerry_P]

I didn't have time to read this whole thread so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant, but has anybody suggested dextrine malt/carapils for mouthfeel?

 

[Kiichi]

I didn't have time to read this whole thread so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant, but has anybody suggested dextrine malt/carapils for mouthfeel?

Found little to no mention so I brought it up, but got no comments IIRC.

I definetly find it adds and use it in most of my brews. Better head, better mouthfeel, etc.

Not the deciding factor, but a good contribution and I recon part of the puzzle.

 

[Oldsock]

Used distilled water and added salts back to it for:
Calcium-87
Magnesium-8
Sodium-43
Sulfate-68
Chloride-128
Bicarbonate-115

For pale/hoppy beers I usually try to keep the sodium and bicarbonate as low as possible. I've got ~100 PPM of carbonate in my water and I dilute 50% with distilled to lower it. I'd get it to zero if I wasn't too lazy to buy 18 gallons of distilled for a batch. Sodium tends to clash with sulfate at high levels, not that you have a huge amount of either. Out of curiosity, why add those salts?

 

[Gerry_P]

Found little to no mention so I brought it up, but got no comments IIRC.

I definetly find it adds and use it in most of my brews. Better head, better mouthfeel, etc.

Not the deciding factor, but a good contribution and I recon part of the puzzle.

Yep. Used in proper amounts, say 5% or so, it improves those things without adding any other grain flavors, which might make it a better choice than, say, oats in certain beers. I don't know how I missed it, but OP says he tried c-pils which I assume is carapils. OP, how much did you use in your recipe?

 

[kaz4121]

I didn't have time to read this whole thread so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant, but has anybody suggested dextrine malt/carapils for mouthfeel?

It was brought up in the earlier posts (by others, including me, specifically). Using dextrin malt is a method that could possibly be used to emulate the silky mouthfeel of Hill Farmstead, but it is speculated that this is not the primary means they use to achieve it.

Regardless, I have experienced great mouthfeel enhancement with 10-15% flaked oats, but still lacking that signature HF feel.

 

[Leeds1]

For pale/hoppy beers I usually try to keep the sodium and bicarbonate as low as possible. I've got ~100 PPM of carbonate in my water and I dilute 50% with distilled to lower it. I'd get it to zero if I wasn't too lazy to buy 18 gallons of distilled for a batch. Sodium tends to clash with sulfate at high levels, not that you have a huge amount of either. Out of curiosity, why add those salts?

I saw the post below earlier in the thread and just decided to try to get close to that, I know my Na is a little higher than the quoted level.

Water:
Using in mash and sparge water-
Gypsum .2 gr/gallon
CaCl .6 gr/gallon
Epsom .1 gr/gallon
Canning salt .2 gr/gallon

RO= 60%, Tap = 40% (your water may vary)

Ca = 96
Mg = 12
Na = 28
Sulfate = 67
Chloride = 135
Bicarbonate = 128



At any rate, that is my latest (and favorite so far) of the ones I have been brewing. Just put two others on tap and have a couple more fermenting...... all fairly similar though as I have been really pleased with this general process lately.

I know the adjuncts are "cheating" and that is not how Hill Farmstead and some others do it...... but, like I said, I am chasing the final result, and this seems to get me there.

This is the first time that I've ever played with water chemistry at all, but after having some Tree House/Trillium/Tired Hands IPAs I just had to see if I could brew something close. The good thing is that this is a base to go off of and can tweak future 'northeast' IPAs now that I have a better understanding of water chemistry. Were you happy with the early, still actively fermenting, dry hop addition to the Northeast IPA that you made?

 

[Braufessor]

I saw the post below earlier in the thread and just decided to try to get close to that, I know my Na is a little higher than the quoted level.



This is the first time that I've ever played with water chemistry at all, but after having some Tree House/Trillium/Tired Hands IPAs I just had to see if I could brew something close. The good thing is that this is a base to go off of and can tweak future 'northeast' IPAs now that I have a better understanding of water chemistry. Were you happy with the early, still actively fermenting, dry hop addition to the Northeast IPA that you made?

Yes - this has become my basic "go-to" 5.5% type APA/IPA. Really, i keep the water the same now in all of them. Grain bill stays pretty standard. Hopping schedule is standard - although I vary the types of hops from batch to batch.

One thing I am trying for the first time with a batch right now, is this:
Added my first dry hops at Day 6 (like normal) to the primary. Day 10-12 I am going to cold crash the primary and add gelatin to it to drop everything out that I can (yeast in particular). I am the going to transfer (the hopefully clear) beer to my secondary/dry hopping keg with the second dry hop for 2-3 days and transfer to the serving keg.

Just curious if I will still get the hazy, full mouth feel, etc dropping the yeast out.

Probably start the cold crash tomorrow night.

** I use lactic acid to offset the bicarbonate and get mash ph in the 5.45 range. I don't know why, but my beers just seem better when I don't use 100% RO water. I know it runs counter to most of what I read about eliminating the bicarbonate entirely...... but, for whatever reason, I like the beers better where I only use 60% RO and use lactic to get mash pH lined up.

 

[Leeds1]

Yes - this has become my basic "go-to" 5.5% type APA/IPA. Really, i keep the water the same now in all of them. Grain bill stays pretty standard. Hopping schedule is standard - although I vary the types of hops from batch to batch.

One thing I am trying for the first time with a batch right now, is this:
Added my first dry hops at Day 6 (like normal) to the primary. Day 10-12 I am going to cold crash the primary and add gelatin to it to drop everything out that I can (yeast in particular). I am the going to transfer (the hopefully clear) beer to my secondary/dry hopping keg with the second dry hop for 2-3 days and transfer to the serving keg.

Just curious if I will still get the hazy, full mouth feel, etc dropping the yeast out.

Probably start the cold crash tomorrow night.

** I use lactic acid to offset the bicarbonate and get mash ph in the 5.45 range. I don't know why, but my beers just seem better when I don't use 100% RO water. I know it runs counter to most of what I read about eliminating the bicarbonate entirely...... but, for whatever reason, I like the beers better where I only use 60% RO and use lactic to get mash pH lined up.

I did add another 3oz of hops 72hrs into fermentation, the airlock smells wonderful right now. I'm going to give it a few more days and then cool it back down to 65F before transferring to a keg where it will get another 3oz of hops. I also used some lactic acid to help get the mash pH down to 5.4. Bru'n Water is pretty nifty once I understood how to use it.

 

[irishrover32]

Yes - this has become my basic "go-to" 5.5% type APA/IPA. Really, i keep the water the same now in all of them. Grain bill stays pretty standard. Hopping schedule is standard - although I vary the types of hops from batch to batch.

One thing I am trying for the first time with a batch right now, is this:
Added my first dry hops at Day 6 (like normal) to the primary. Day 10-12 I am going to cold crash the primary and add gelatin to it to drop everything out that I can (yeast in particular). I am the going to transfer (the hopefully clear) beer to my secondary/dry hopping keg with the second dry hop for 2-3 days and transfer to the serving keg.

Just curious if I will still get the hazy, full mouth feel, etc dropping the yeast out.

Probably start the cold crash tomorrow night.

** I use lactic acid to offset the bicarbonate and get mash ph in the 5.45 range. I don't know why, but my beers just seem better when I don't use 100% RO water. I know it runs counter to most of what I read about eliminating the bicarbonate entirely...... but, for whatever reason, I like the beers better where I only use 60% RO and use lactic to get mash pH lined up.

im planning on trying something similiar however i have not had good results cold crashing after dry hopping in primary i think its to do with leaving the hops in them extra 2 days which gives me a lot of grassyness ( i use a lot of hops so anything more than 5 days is negative). so for my next brew ill dry hop on day 5 of primary, then transfer with a mesh bag over my racking cane to a keg to keep hops out, then add another dry hop in the keg for 5 days, then remove the dry hop bag from keg and cold crash with gelatin, leave it 3 days and then trasfer to a serving keg. that way i have full temp control over the dry hops and how long they stay in

 

[The_Glue]

im planning on trying something similiar however i have not had good results cold crashing after dry hopping in primary i think its to do with leaving the hops in them extra 2 days which gives me a lot of grassyness ( i use a lot of hops so anything more than 5 days is negative). so for my next brew ill dry hop on day 5 of primary, then transfer with a mesh bag over my racking cane to a keg to keep hops out, then add another dry hop in the keg for 5 days, then remove the dry hop bag from keg and cold crash with gelatin, leave it 3 days and then trasfer to a serving keg. that way i have full temp control over the dry hops and how long they stay in

I am firmly in the 4-5 days dryhop camp but on my last brew which was inspired by this thread i left my dryhops (2013 Nelson Sauvin) in one of the fermenters for 3 weeks @ 70F before kegging and it had zero grassiness.
I dunno what happened there, will stick to the usual 4-5 days.

 

[irishrover32]

I am firmly in the 4-5 days dryhop camp but on my last brew which was inspired by this thread i left my dryhops (2013 Nelson Sauvin) in one of the fermenters for 3 weeks @ 70F before kegging and it had zero grassiness.
I dunno what happened there, will stick to the usual 4-5 days.

I think sometimes it can come down to the variety used. What did you dry hop with?

 

[The_Glue]

I think sometimes it can come down to the variety used. What did you dry hop with?

Nelson Sauvin from the 2013 harvest

 

[hopsandhops]

I've been dry hopping longer the last few brews because of adding them on day 4-5 and 1318 taking so long and I haven't experienced anything negative. I've had great aroma with relatively small dry hops and I've been wondering if it's the longer contact or the adding during active ferment to scrub o2

 

[Kiichi]

Has anyone heard of or had this beer called fatamorgana by omnipollo ? I saw it at my local liquor store (they carry a ton of craft beer) and wasn't going to buy it since it was 6.99$ for one 12oz bottle! :O but I had a change of heart when I picked it up and noticed how murky looking it was. This brewery also did a collab with tired hands on another beer I saw on beer advocate. Maybe they swapped yeasties?!

Anywho, the beer did have a very very soft mouthfeel. Not evaporating Per se but soft. The appearance was on pare with HF, tired hands and Tree house. Aroma and flavor was kinda weak but after looking at the bottle it expires this month. So I suspect it was 5-6 months at this point. Still really tasty!

Finally got word from Omnipollo (they were busy with beer festivals and such). BBF on that one is 1 year from bottling. So how impressive was that for a 1 year old IPA?^^

 

[BreezyBrew]

I know it runs counter to most of what I read about eliminating the bicarbonate entirely...... .

I found this comment interesting. So you are saying in the literature, eliminating the bicarb entirely has a positive effect on taste?

I'm brewing a fairly straight ahead APA this weekend. I have been playing around in Bru'n water and seeing how your numbers work with straight RO. Since my experience with even 15% of my tap water, the hops came out harsh, I have gone RO.

I'm finding with the Ca, SO4, and Cl in your range, the estimated mash pH ends up being around 5.6. I can bring the pH down to a good level, but that virtually eliminates the Bicarbonate. I'm unclear if it helps or hurts the final taste in the beer.

 

[Braufessor]

I found this comment interesting. So you are saying in the literature, eliminating the bicarb entirely has a positive effect on taste?

I'm brewing a fairly straight ahead APA this weekend. I have been playing around in Bru'n water and seeing how your numbers work with straight RO. Since my experience with even 15% of my tap water, the hops came out harsh, I have gone RO.

I'm finding with the Ca, SO4, and Cl in your range, the estimated mash pH ends up being around 5.6. I can bring the pH down to a good level, but that virtually eliminates the Bicarbonate. I'm unclear if it helps or hurts the final taste in the beer.

I use lactic acid to get my pH in line (5.35-5.45).

In regard to bicarbonate...... I have never read anywhere, by anyone that leaving alkalinity in the water is desirable in any way (for an IPA/APA). EVERYTHING I have read suggests 40 or below...... and, if you are diluting with RO..... just go all RO and eliminate any bicarbonate at all.

That said....... I have really liked my beers with 60-80% RO and 20-40% filtered tap water (my tap water is about 270 bicarbonate). That definitely goes against conventional wisdom and what I have read. I will likely do some "head to head" beers in the winter with 100% RO vs. 60-80% RO with the same recipe, process to revisit this.

Make sure any tap water you use is filtered or you account for chlorine/chloramine that is in it..... that will ruin an IPA in a hurry.

 

[The_Glue]

Sadly my last IPA was soured by the phosporic acid. (~350 hco3, 5.2 mash ph) It needed too much acid, the mash water tasted like lemons. (I also added that much acid to the sparge water, my reasoning behind that was I thought that my post-boil ph would creep up too much if I would dump in a lot of that alkaline water into the boil)
It seems like i need to boil my water before brewing. I wish i could calculate somehow how much Ca i need to put in my water to get most of the alkalinity out.

 

[bierhaus15]

Figured I'd post the results of the HF Edward and water sample I analyzed a while ago.

Basically, their water is hard-ish. Estimated ALK is around 150ppm. This is within range of what I have heard from others, including an interview somewhere which had it around 140ppm. Granted, don't know if they treat this with acid or just salts.

As for pH, came out to 4.48 and suspended yeast was very high - I didn't both counting the cells, since there were so many - accounting for that nice cloudy appearance. Hop oils were overall quite moderate via GCMS, with notable myrcene and caryophellene concentrations, which correlate with the green/grassy character of the beer. IBU was high 40's. Didn't do HPLC, but obviously there is some big polyphenols in the beer. Sorta bitter, grassy, not a great defined hop character. Bit muddled.

Still had an airy mouthfeel.

 

[kaz4121]

Figured I'd post the results of the HF Edward and water sample I analyzed a while ago.

Where did you have that analyzed? And for how much?

I have some HF and other commercial beers I'd like to send out for analysis too if the price is right

 

[Leeds1]

.

Double post.

 

[Leeds1]

Brewed this Thursday the 24th.

10lbs. Superior Pale Ale Malt
1.75lbs Flaked Oats

Wyeast 1318
OG 1.049

1oz Magnum FWH
1oz each of Simcoe, Mosiac and Citra Hopstand at 170 for 30 minutes.

Used distilled water and added salts back to it for:
Calcium-87
Magnesium-8
Sodium-43
Sulfate-68
Chloride-128
Bicarbonate-115

This thing took off like a rocket and blew the stopper before I got a chance to put a blowoff tube on it. I've never had a beer start this fast.

3 days fermentation at 62F then moved to 70 and added another oz each of Simcoe, Mosiac and Citra while primary is still active. Hoping to move this to a keg by Thursday/Friday and will keg hop with 1oz of Mosiac and 2oz. of Citra. This is the first time I've ever played with water chemistry and I'm hoping this thing turns out awesome, I know it smells good right now.

This beer just 2nd in a local home brew fest competition. It's hazy, but not murky, soft and just damn good for a low alcohol IPA. Easily the best beer I've ever made and I can't wait to tweak this recipe even more.

 

[atom]

This beer just 2nd in a local home brew fest competition. It's hazy, but not murky, soft and just damn good for a low alcohol IPA. Easily the best beer I've ever made and I can't wait to tweak this recipe even more.

congrats! what competition?

 

[mosaicbrewer]

Also wondering what category, and congrats, always feels good when you get positive feedback like that

 

[zwiller]

Sadly my last IPA was soured by the phosporic acid. (~350 hco3, 5.2 mash ph) It needed too much acid, the mash water tasted like lemons. (I also added that much acid to the sparge water, my reasoning behind that was I thought that my post-boil ph would creep up too much if I would dump in a lot of that alkaline water into the boil)
It seems like i need to boil my water before brewing. I wish i could calculate somehow how much Ca i need to put in my water to get most of the alkalinity out.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alkalinity_reduction_with_slaked_lime

Although boiling and lime (best) works, I think they are a PITA. I would just cut 3:1 (distilled:tap) with distilled or even just build from 100% distilled > KISS. You need to be under 120ppm HCO3 to keep flavor contribution of acids to a minimum (Noonan)

 

[The_Glue]

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alkalinity_reduction_with_slaked_lime

Although boiling and lime (best) works, I think they are a PITA. I would just cut 3:1 (distilled:tap) with distilled or even just build from 100% distilled > KISS. You need to be under 120ppm HCO3 to keep flavor contribution of acids to a minimum (Noonan)

Sadly i have never seen RO or distilled water around these parts in europe sold in big quantities. (i could get distilled in pharmacies for like 15$ per gallon but that is too expensive) (also RO machines are almost unheard here, i am jelly in so many ways of you US guys)

On the other hand this lime method looks pretty good. I am planning a brewday on the weekend, should i try this alkalinity reduction method with heat (boiling) instead of lime until i can get food grade lime?

Does the CaCl or CaSO4 into water to get enough calcium ---> 10 minute boil ---> 1 day settling time ---> racking from the top method works?
The lime method looks much cheaper and easier but pickling lime is quite rare here and i only found chemistry shops selling it.

 

[g-star]

I use lactic acid to get my pH in line (5.35-5.45).

In regard to bicarbonate...... I have never read anywhere, by anyone that leaving alkalinity in the water is desirable in any way (for an IPA/APA). EVERYTHING I have read suggests 40 or below...... and, if you are diluting with RO..... just go all RO and eliminate any bicarbonate at all.

That said....... I have really liked my beers with 60-80% RO and 20-40% filtered tap water (my tap water is about 270 bicarbonate).

At pH 5.4, > 95% of any bicarbonate present has been converted to H2CO3, which in turn is in a dynamic equilibrium with dissolved CO2(g). So chemically, the end result is essentially identical whether you start with 100% RO or a blend of RO and tap water.

Whatever difference in taste you perceive, it is not due to the presence of bicarbonate.