Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

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JJ900

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Another good option to use up Azacca hops is to make a Victory Hop Ranch clone, 9%ABV. There is an HBT thread for it. I make a lighter 7% version with equal parts Mosaic and Azacca in a 60/15/5/flameout/dryhop schedule and I think its a better beer at this ABV.
 

kchomebrew

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I've done many NE style IPA/Pale ales and have used everything from US04, WY 1098, WLP007, WY1318, Gigayeast Conan, Omega Conan, and Imperial Organic Conan and it seems like to me that there is only marginal difference on all these yeasts with the right grain bill (plenty of oats and wheat), proper Ca:Cl:So4 ratio, and proper dry hopping techniques (rouse the dry hop additions). My preference is 1098 or 1318 or, sometimes a blend of the two and I think both work nicely but each works better with different hop profiles.

So my thought I had this AM was trying the above technique with a chico strain. Has anyone done this ? And I mean with like 20%+ of grain bill being flaked oats/wheat and with above described water profile and dry hop techniques ? I know the consensus is that the english strains provide fruity esters that work with the dry hops, but would be interesting to see if the finished product is still hazy and displays a nice hop profile. I'd imagine you'd get a more restrained yeast profile, which could be interesting in a NE style to see how that presents itself. Not that the yeast profile in a finished NE style is undesirable. Just curious what it would be like. I'm wondering if this is what Lawson's is doing since they've been on record noting use of Chico and it's clearly a different type of haze/hop profile than the other NE breweries.....almost looks like some of the heavier hopped Toppling Goliath beers, but I'm fairly certain they are using an english strain (WLP 002 ?). I've never seen any posts about using US05 with NE style Ca:Cl:So4 ratios and heavy oat/wheat based grain bills.
 

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I've done many NE style IPA/Pale ales and have used everything from US04, WY 1098, WLP007, WY1318, Gigayeast Conan, Omega Conan, and Imperial Organic Conan and it seems like to me that there is only marginal difference on all these yeasts with the right grain bill (plenty of oats and wheat), proper Ca:Cl:So4 ratio, and proper dry hopping techniques (rouse the dry hop additions). My preference is 1098 or 1318 or, sometimes a blend of the two and I think both work nicely but each works better with different hop profiles.

So my thought I had this AM was trying the above technique with a chico strain. Has anyone done this ? And I mean with like 20%+ of grain bill being flaked oats/wheat and with above described water profile and dry hop techniques ? I know the consensus is that the english strains provide fruity esters that work with the dry hops, but would be interesting to see if the finished product is still hazy and displays a nice hop profile. I'd imagine you'd get a more restrained yeast profile, which could be interesting in a NE style to see how that presents itself. Not that the yeast profile in a finished NE style is undesirable. Just curious what it would be like. I'm wondering if this is what Lawson's is doing since they've been on record noting use of Chico and it's clearly a different type of haze/hop profile than the other NE breweries.....almost looks like some of the heavier hopped Toppling Goliath beers, but I'm fairly certain they are using an english strain (WLP 002 ?). I've never seen any posts about using US05 with NE style Ca:Cl:So4 ratios and heavy oat/wheat based grain bills.
I just used 1272 for a series of beers - it was fantastic. I liked it as much.... maybe even more???? than Conan which has been my standby for the last couple years.
I have been using a slightly "bigger" version of this recipe;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

OG in the 1.055-1.060 range
40% each of Golden Promise and 2 Row.
7.5% Flaked Oats
5% Flaked Barley
2.5% each of Flaked wheat, wheat and honey malt

140:70 Sulfate: Chloride (or maybe 1:1 ratio in the 100-140 range). pH around 5.4 for mash and kettle.

Hopping schedule as outlined in OP.

But, yeah - the 1272 was really great.

hops.jpg
 

BreezyBrew

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I just used 1272 for a series of beers - it was fantastic. I liked it as much.... maybe even more???? than Conan which has been my standby for the last couple years.
I have been using a slightly "bigger" version of this recipe;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

OG in the 1.055-1.060 range
40% each of Golden Promise and 2 Row.
7.5% Flaked Oats
5% Flaked Barley
2.5% each of Flaked wheat, wheat and honey malt

140:70 Sulfate: Chloride (or maybe 1:1 ratio in the 100-140 range). pH around 5.4 for mash and kettle.

Hopping schedule as outlined in OP.

But, yeah - the 1272 was really great.
What temp did you end up fermenting at?
 

TheHairyHop

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I've used wlp644 and it's good. I'm looking for more of that peach flavor that Conan puts out, however. I've got some hybrids from suregork that I'm trying to ramp up atm
 

kchomebrew

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I just used 1272 for a series of beers - it was fantastic. I liked it as much.... maybe even more???? than Conan which has been my standby for the last couple years.
I have been using a slightly "bigger" version of this recipe;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

OG in the 1.055-1.060 range
40% each of Golden Promise and 2 Row.
7.5% Flaked Oats
5% Flaked Barley
2.5% each of Flaked wheat, wheat and honey malt

140:70 Sulfate: Chloride (or maybe 1:1 ratio in the 100-140 range). pH around 5.4 for mash and kettle.

Hopping schedule as outlined in OP.

But, yeah - the 1272 was really great.

Anchor Liberty strain. Interesting. I believe I read about that. Do you know where 1272 stems from ? I'd assume Conan was derived from Boddingtons and some sort of drift over time created Conan. Seem to recall reading Greg Noonan sourcing from some English strain and producing Conan. But interested to know if 1272 maybe branched from Boddingtons or something similar
 
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Has anyone tried this approach (i.e. water profile, large percentage of oats/wheat, etc.) for different styles of beer besides IPA's to get that soft, pillowy mouthfeel? I've been thinking of trying it with either a stout or Irish red recipe and just wondering if someone else has had any luck in doing so.
 

lilbova3

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Has anyone tried this approach (i.e. water profile, large percentage of oats/wheat, etc.) for different styles of beer besides IPA's to get that soft, pillowy mouthfeel? I've been thinking of trying it with either a stout or Irish red recipe and just wondering if someone else has had any luck in doing so.

I've done it with a stout and shared with a really really great fellow homebrewer and the first thing he commented on was the soft mouthfeel.

Basically comes down to what you want the finished product to be like.
 
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I've done it with a stout and shared with a really really great fellow homebrewer and the first thing he commented on was the soft mouthfeel.

Basically comes down to what you want the finished product to be like.
So did you just do a 1:2 Sulfate:Chloride with a mash pH of 5.4 and use about 10-20% of oats/wheat?
 

bierhaus15

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Anchor Liberty strain. Interesting. I believe I read about that. Do you know where 1272 stems from ? I'd assume Conan was derived from Boddingtons and some sort of drift over time created Conan. Seem to recall reading Greg Noonan sourcing from some English strain and producing Conan. But interested to know if 1272 maybe branched from Boddingtons or something similar
The Anchor yeast (BRY97) is believed to be one of the Ballantine strains (their top-cropping 'ale' strain). Interestingly, Chico/BRY96 is also Ballantine and there is some evidence it was their bottom cropping "beer" strain. Anchor got their yeast from Siebel.

Regardless, Conan is not a 1318 or 1272 derivative. Conan (1188) is closest to NCYC1187, or Ringwood. I have not seen genetic testing, but in lab trials they both behave almost exactly for acid production, flocculation, diacetyl, ect. It would make sense Conan is Ringwood related as well, since that was a widely used yeast in Vermont when the VPB was getting started.
 

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Anyone else think hop oils in suspension have something to do with it? I split my last batch in half, so the first half only received one round of dry hops, and the second half got an additional 1 oz per gal keg hopped. I noticed the half with the additional keg hops had a thicker, richer mouth feel than the half without it. My wife also commented on the same thing without me asking her anything about it.

Edit : To be clear, the whole batch got dry hopped in primary, during active fermentation. Then half was left alone and half was dry hopped a second time in the serving keg. More hops is more better.
 

TheHairyHop

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Anyone else think hop oils in suspension have something to do with it? I split my last batch in half, so the first half only received one round of dry hops, and the second half got an additional 1 oz per gal keg hopped. I noticed the half with the additional keg hops had a thicker, richer mouth feel than the half without it. My wife also commented on the same thing without me asking her anything about it.

Edit : To be clear, the whole batch got dry hopped in primary, during active fermentation. Then half was left alone and half was dry hopped a second time in the serving keg. More hops is more better.
yes. there are hypotheses thinking that it also helps to dry hop while yeast are still in suspension as well. It would be interesting to do a three way split batch in that vein.
 

couchsending

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Ha anyone else here built of starters from dregs of their hoppy beers on tap? Growlers from the brewery? I'm fermenting a beer now with yeast I harvested from a 750 of S&S9. It definitely doesn't seem to perform anything like 1318 which I know a lot of people think is their yeast...

I also built up dregs from one of the farmhouse ale bottles I got (can't remember which) and I definitely got a lot of wine yeast. It has that trademark cherry smell that comes from BM-45 I believe.. there is definitely Brett in there too but clearly no brewing yeast as the wine yeast kills all of it.
 

Braufessor

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Ha anyone else here built of starters from dregs of their hoppy beers on tap? Growlers from the brewery? I'm fermenting a beer now with yeast I harvested from a 750 of S&S9. It definitely doesn't seem to perform anything like 1318 which I know a lot of people think is their yeast...

I also built up dregs from one of the farmhouse ale bottles I got (can't remember which) and I definitely got a lot of wine yeast. It has that trademark cherry smell that comes from BM-45 I believe.. there is definitely Brett in there too but clearly no brewing yeast as the wine yeast kills all of it.
I built up dregs from a bottle of Arthur and a bottle of Dorothy. I blended the two yeasts into one starter. I had a saison I fermented with Yeast Bay Saison Blend..... regular "Saison Flavor." However, I then bottled it in 750ml bottles and added some of the Hill Farmstead yeast to each bottle. The beer really transformed in the bottle..... citrus, tart, lemony..... reminded me a lot of Arthur. I am still waiting on it to carb up better at this point.

I since have used that yeast in another Saison as a primary fermentation strain. I just moved it from fermenter to conditioning/secondary keg after 18 days in primary (gravity 1.010). I have to say, I was not super impressed with it out of primary. It was ok. However, it certainly did not taste like the saison where I used it for bottling. Have to see where it goes from here. May end up adding Brett C. to it or something in a couple weeks if it does not seem like flavor is coming around a little better.
I will definitely add it at bottling again though to see if I can replicate the first results in regard to flavor:mug:
 

couchsending

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I built up dregs from a bottle of Arthur and a bottle of Dorothy. I blended the two yeasts into one starter. I had a saison I fermented with Yeast Bay Saison Blend..... regular "Saison Flavor." However, I then bottled it in 750ml bottles and added some of the Hill Farmstead yeast to each bottle. The beer really transformed in the bottle..... citrus, tart, lemony..... reminded me a lot of Arthur. I am still waiting on it to carb up better at this point.

I since have used that yeast in another Saison as a primary fermentation strain. I just moved it from fermenter to conditioning/secondary keg after 18 days in primary (gravity 1.010). I have to say, I was not super impressed with it out of primary. It was ok. However, it certainly did not taste like the saison where I used it for bottling. Have to see where it goes from here. May end up adding Brett C. to it or something in a couple weeks if it does not seem like flavor is coming around a little better.
I will definitely add it at bottling again though to see if I can replicate the first results in regard to flavor:mug:
What did you mash at? Did you think it would go much further? You can ferment beer with BM-45 but it won't go that low cause it can't eat the maltitriose. Maybe the Brett could have eaten a bunch more of the residual sugar to get it that low. I haven't fermented a beer with Wine yeast yet but have been doing a lot of research over the last month on wine yeast so I'm not sure what attenuation you could get with it but I would think if you mashed low, and added some sugar you could get to 1.010 with wine yeast and Brett.

If people haven't listened to the Brewing Network podcast from 2008 with Shea Comfort (aka The Yeast Whisperer) I would highly highly suggest it. Hands down the most interesting podcast I've ever listened to on brewing! Learned a lot about wine yeast, blending, and especially oak.
 

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I have about 5PPM og sulfates in my water. I just add a bit of CaCl to maybe 10PPM, easy on the carbonation, and I get a pretty smooth mouthfeel. I don't understand why you would add up to 180ppm of sulfates if you're after a smooth mouthfeel. If your water is high in sulfates you maybe should try RO water. Its not about the relationship caso4/cacl, but how much you have.

A beer with high amounts of both will feel full, round, sweet-ish at the impact, and dry out at the end. If it dries out it's not smooth imo.
 

couchsending

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Malt contributes a ridiculous amount of sulfate and chloride.. no way you could tell the difference in 10ppm...
 

Callacave

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I have about 5PPM og sulfates in my water. I just add a bit of CaCl to maybe 10PPM, easy on the carbonation, and I get a pretty smooth mouthfeel. I don't understand why you would add up to 180ppm of sulfates if you're after a smooth mouthfeel. If your water is high in sulfates you maybe should try RO water. Its not about the relationship caso4/cacl, but how much you have.

A beer with high amounts of both will feel full, round, sweet-ish at the impact, and dry out at the end. If it dries out it's not smooth imo.
You're missing the point of how Shaun approaches his beers. It's not just about a smooth/full mouthfeel. His beers have this pillowy soft mouthfeel. So fuller body, but fades, and doesn't linger. Plus, none of the flavors are harsh like a lot of other NEIPA beers can be. It's more than just minerals.
 

mikeroesoft

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You're missing the point of how Shaun approaches his beers. It's not just about a smooth/full mouthfeel. His beers have this pillowy soft mouthfeel. So fuller body, but fades, and doesn't linger. Plus, none of the flavors are harsh like a lot of other NEIPA beers can be. It's more than just minerals.
Absolutely. Many people think the key is paying attention to one or two process variables when in fact it's the whole process. Shaun Hill has an immense skill. He was a very well regarded brewer long before he started up Hill Farmstead.
 

mikeroesoft

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I would be worried about contamination building up yeast from growlers. The taps at the brewery are likely cleaned quite regularly, but I don't imagine they're sanitized after every fill. Not to mention the growlers not being sanitized.

I agree with you on the yeast not being 1318. It wouldn't surprise me if he's using more than one yeast strain but I can't confirm.
 

mikeroesoft

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I built up dregs from a bottle of Arthur and a bottle of Dorothy. I blended the two yeasts into one starter. I had a saison I fermented with Yeast Bay Saison Blend..... regular "Saison Flavor." However, I then bottled it in 750ml bottles and added some of the Hill Farmstead yeast to each bottle. The beer really transformed in the bottle..... citrus, tart, lemony..... reminded me a lot of Arthur. I am still waiting on it to carb up better at this point.



I since have used that yeast in another Saison as a primary fermentation strain. I just moved it from fermenter to conditioning/secondary keg after 18 days in primary (gravity 1.010). I have to say, I was not super impressed with it out of primary. It was ok. However, it certainly did not taste like the saison where I used it for bottling. Have to see where it goes from here. May end up adding Brett C. to it or something in a couple weeks if it does not seem like flavor is coming around a little better.

I will definitely add it at bottling again though to see if I can replicate the first results in regard to flavor:mug:

Pitching HF dregs in secondary will be alright as long as there is nothing left for the bottling yeast to consume. Pitching a starter built from HF dregs into primary will give you a beer that's been fermented primarily by their bottling strain.

I do know that he's used 1118 at some point for bottle conditioning. I would doubt it's used for all the bottled beers, but some.
 

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You're missing the point of how Shaun approaches his beers. It's not just about a smooth/full mouthfeel. His beers have this pillowy soft mouthfeel. So fuller body, but fades, and doesn't linger. Plus, none of the flavors are harsh like a lot of other NEIPA beers can be. It's more than just minerals.
I've never had one of those beers.. :(

I was more about the sulfate PPM. I know there's a lot more to a good beer than just the minerals, but i was a bit ??? when I read the high sulfate content and ending up with a beer which this thread is about. I might be wrong, but I don't associate high so4 content with a pillowy beer.
 

specharka

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As an update, a highish FG and krausening seems to go a long way for me. Still haven't nailed this though
Dorothy finishes @ 1.006 and Table Dorothy @ 1.004. It’s not a highish FG you should be chasing. Everett finishes really high but that’s an entirely different demon.

As an aside I built up a starter from both of those beers and don’t think there’s any viable Saccharomyces left in my culture. It attenuated from 1.046 -> 1.007 within 6 weeks but there’s little, if any mouthfeel there. The pH did drop like crazy, down to 3.5 before dry hopping (this is in 27 IBU wort too). Thinking I might just have Brett + LAB left based on observations alone.

Gonna reuse the culture cuz there’s some amazing lemon and citrus esters here, but I am gonna have to co-pitch a saison strain next time, probably 3726 or 3724.
 

TheHairyHop

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Dorothy finishes @ 1.006 and Table Dorothy @ 1.004. It’s not a highish FG you should be chasing. Everett finishes really high but that’s an entirely different demon.

As an aside I built up a starter from both of those beers and don’t think there’s any viable Saccharomyces left in my culture. It attenuated from 1.046 -> 1.007 within 6 weeks but there’s little, if any mouthfeel there. The pH did drop like crazy, down to 3.5 before dry hopping (this is in 27 IBU wort too). Thinking I might just have Brett + LAB left based on observations alone.

Gonna reuse the culture cuz there’s some amazing lemon and citrus esters here, but I am gonna have to co-pitch a saison strain next time, probably 3726 or 3724.
I think that there is more than one thing going on for the mouth feel. From my experience, HF beers do not universally have a fantastic pillowy character. The lower FG ones tend to be missing the full experience. While I'm not insisting that a decent FG is mandatory, it sure helps.
 

couchsending

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Dorothy finishes @ 1.006 and Table Dorothy @ 1.004. It’s not a highish FG you should be chasing. Everett finishes really high but that’s an entirely different demon.

As an aside I built up a starter from both of those beers and don’t think there’s any viable Saccharomyces left in my culture. It attenuated from 1.046 -> 1.007 within 6 weeks but there’s little, if any mouthfeel there. The pH did drop like crazy, down to 3.5 before dry hopping (this is in 27 IBU wort too). Thinking I might just have Brett + LAB left based on observations alone.

Gonna reuse the culture cuz there’s some amazing lemon and citrus esters here, but I am gonna have to co-pitch a saison strain next time, probably 3726 or 3724.
They bottle with wine yeast. I've had success pitching their dregs in secondary but would hesitate cofermenting in primary. There's
no real reason to. Their Brett strain (or whatever it is) produces a decent amount of acid on it's own so it's possible that there actually
isn't any LAB in there. PH of most of their standard saisons is around 3.9. I'm sure someone has streaked dregs out on different media to determine this but I don't know if I've read that anywhere.

Their hoppy beers all definitely finish a little high. I believe Edward is 1.014 as is Walden which is only 4%. To me the mouthfeel is a combo of a lot of variables. Step mashing, water, pitch rate, natural carbonation (although I'm starting to second guess this at times), final gravity, etc.
 

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They bottle with wine yeast. I've had success pitching their dregs in secondary but would hesitate cofermenting in primary. There's
no real reason to. Their Brett strain (or whatever it is) produces a decent amount of acid on it's own so it's possible that there actually
isn't any LAB in there. PH of most of their standard saisons is around 3.9. I'm sure someone has streaked dregs out on different media to determine this but I don't know if I've read that anywhere.

Their hoppy beers all definitely finish a little high. I believe Edward is 1.014 as is Walden which is only 4%. To me the mouthfeel is a combo of a lot of variables. Step mashing, water, pitch rate, natural carbonation (although I'm starting to second guess this at times), final gravity, etc.
Sure there is. I’ve fermented a rye farmhouse ale with 100% Arthur dregs before and it turned out fabulous. Best Saison I’ve ever made. Takes less time to attenuate and develop that characteristic light hay aroma.

I’ve also built starters from their clean beers (canned dregs from S+S #8) and the resulting beers were all between 77-79% AA. Think my hoppy wheat actually finished spot on 1.014. I just meant comparatively speaking they’re not “full” beers like most NEIPA recipes. I read a survey on CB&B where a few commercial NEIPAs were compared and WeldWerks Juicy Bits finished lowest @ 1.015.
 

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Most Tree House beers finish below 1.014, and they're nearly the king of fluffy IPA mouthfeel. The trend of NEIPAs finishing above that is incorrect practice IMO. For example, I never had a NEIPA (New England is my first home) with lactose in it. In Colorado, it's pretty hard to find one without. It was my mistake to not provide specifics when I said "highish FG". I think anything above 1.015/8 is a bit too high
 

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They bottle with wine yeast. I've had success pitching their dregs in secondary but would hesitate cofermenting in primary. There's
no real reason to. Their Brett strain (or whatever it is) produces a decent amount of acid on it's own so it's possible that there actually
isn't any LAB in there. PH of most of their standard saisons is around 3.9. I'm sure someone has streaked dregs out on different media to determine this but I don't know if I've read that anywhere.

Their hoppy beers all definitely finish a little high. I believe Edward is 1.014 as is Walden which is only 4%. To me the mouthfeel is a combo of a lot of variables. Step mashing, water, pitch rate, natural carbonation (although I'm starting to second guess this at times), final gravity, etc.
Why are you second guessing the natural carbonation?
 

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How would you define natural carbonation? And would it be different and / or better, than say krausening?
 

couchsending

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Natural carbonation is everything that not force carbonated.

krausening
Capping primary fermentation
Adding sugar or wort
Etc.
 
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