Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[irishrover32]

I wonder about 1318 for the yeast??

im using this in my next brew and using a similiar malt bill to what shaun might use, should finish around 1.014, gonna shoot for alkalinity in the upper 40's and use a 1:1 ratio of sulfate to chloride and keep them low around the 70's ppm


Boil Size: 28.30 l
Post Boil Volume: 23.00 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l
Bottling Volume: 23.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.061 SG
Estimated Color: 5.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 37.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 83.3 %
0.50 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.3 %
0.50 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 15EBC (7.0 SRM) Grain 3 8.3 %
10.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 4 9.5 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 5 -
20.00 g Centennial [8.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 4.1 IBUs
20.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 6.2 IBUs
10.00 g Chinook [12.70 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 3.0 IBUs
70.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 5.0 Hop 9 10.0 IBUs
30.00 g Centennial [8.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 5 Hop 10 2.8 IBUs
10.00 g Chinook [12.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 5.0 Hop 11 1.4 IBUs
1.0 pkg London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) [124. Yeast 12 -
60.00 g Simcoe [9.00 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
30.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
15.00 g Chinook [12.70 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
40.00 g Simcoe [9.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
20.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
15.00 g Chinook [12.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs

 

[Colbizle]

I wonder about 1318 for the yeast??

I've been using 1318 with good results. Had no trouble hitting my target estimated FG. One thing to mention is that it does contribute a ever so slight residual sweetness even in the absence of a residual sugars or a high FG. Very soft strain. Right now I have two other beers fermenting with it (third generation). I'm wondering if the characteristics will change with multiple generations. We will see.

 

[Colbizle]

Interesting thread. I recently had the chance to try several HF beers, and they do live up to the hype. The mouthfeel is unique and helps set these beers apart.

My perspective is that chasing a specific ionic water profile with the hopes of achieving that mouthfeel is misguided. Water is important, but I believe he was referring more to getting the correct mash/kettle/final pH than a specific mineral content. Based on the comments about chloride, I think best practice would be to focus on achieving the correct pH with mostly CaCl2 and/or acid additions. Based on things we know about other famous Vermont brewers, I would say to shoot for a low pH (5.2 - 5.3 in the kettle).

I have to believe ultimately though that the mouthfeel is more attributable to yeast strain perhaps aided by a high mash temp. We know some of these beers have a relatively high final gravity. The unfiltered appearance and the knowledge that they use a house English/Conan-derivative yeast strain seems to support this. Unless they're lying, the posted grain bills show no adjuncts/flaked grains.

If one could get the beer regularly, I would think that a full anion/cation analysis and a successful culture of the house yeast pitched into a simple pale ale recipe would provide a great deal of insight.

Any takers?

Shaun has stated multiple times he prefers more chloride than other brewers think to put it. What you've mentioned has already been discussed in lengths earlier in the the thread. Will just a specific mineral profile be the end all be all? No, but it is a significant contributing factor with regards to yeast, ph, mash temp ect. We know that. A low mash ph is 5.2-5.3 will result in a thinner, crisper mouth feel. High mash ph 5.4-5.5 will give a rounder and fuller mouthfeel.

 

[g-star]

Shaun has stated multiple times he prefers more chloride than other brewers think to put it. What you've mentioned has already been discussed in lengths earlier in the the thread. Will just a specific mineral profile be the end all be all? No, but it is a significant contributing factor with regards to yeast, ph, mash temp ect. We know that. A low mash ph is 5.2-5.3 will result in a thinner, crisper mouth feel. High mash ph 5.4-5.5 will give a rounder and fuller mouthfeel.

Take it easy chief, I was just offering my perspective. Knock yourself out if you think the chloride is a key parameter.

Would also like to know your source with regards to a high mash pH giving a "rounder and fuller mouthfeel". Mash pH is important for conversion, but the final beer pH is what will be what determines the acidity/flavor relationship. This can be adjusted in the kettle, irrespective of whatever pH you mash at.

 

[Colbizle]

Take it easy chief, I was just offering my perspective. Knock yourself out if you think the chloride is a key parameter.

Would also like to know your source with regards to a high mash pH giving a "rounder and fuller mouthfeel". Mash pH is important for conversion, but the final beer pH is what will be what determines the acidity/flavor relationship. This can be adjusted in the kettle, irrespective of whatever pH you mash at.

Not sure why you're getting defense, you gave your opinion and I just said the info you provided has already been discussed earlier in the thread. I understand this is becoming a lengthy thread so it's likely most people are not going to read it thoroughly but just skip to the new material. I didn't say chloride was the "key" per se but it is definitely a contributing factor. I really enjoy the info that Martin B has provided regarding water and he recommends 5.4 for hoppy styles and a better mouthfeel. https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

I've never adjusted in the kettle post mash because my kettle ph ends up being where it should be. I'd assume if you missed your mash ph by such great lengths that the damage has been done and adjusting kettle ph won't contribute much but I'm open to hearing more on this topic.

Cheers.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

I've never adjusted in the kettle post mash because my kettle ph ends up being where it should be. I'd assume if you missed you mash ph by such great lengths that the damage has been done and adjusting kettle ph won't contribute much but I'm open to hearing more on this topic.

Cheers.

Same here.

 

[zwiller]

If your water is very low alkalinity, you'll be fine, but if not, the results are disastrous. With my water (90ppm alkalinity) I have to acidify sparge or final pH ends up too high. Beer is "flat/tubby/dull" whatever... This a very common problem with beers I judge. Acidifying sparge keeps beer tasting like beer and not like homebrew, if you catch my drift.

I really like g-stars idea of low mash pH with high mash temps. In my mind, that would make a beer like you guys describe. In addition, I can vouch of the low pH is crisper and higher pH is softer. Spent alot of time testing that out. It's legit. What's missing from the conversation is the yeast strain's impact on pH. This is also a factor. IE chico is well known to produce less acid so you must help mash lower or the beer will end up too high >4.5.

 

[Callacave]

I've used 1318 and handful of times, and at first the esters were a little too high. This is reportedly the strain Shaun uses, but I'm still not convinced yet. My last brew with this strain I fermented cooler than usual to help reduce esters. I think it was in the low 60's, which at first I could still pick up those familiar esters, but as time went on seemed to blend better with the beer, or at least became less noticeable to me.

Of late I've been using a hybrid Maine beer co dregs mixed with 1056, and getting good results. The mouthfeel on my last beer has been amazing, but I must confess there was a pound of flaked barley in there, but I also steeped the hell out of it, and the finishing pH was around 4.40. Combined with a sulfate and chloride level of 175/100 made for what I feel was an amazing flavor and mouthfeel, although I think it was just a little too harsh from the mineral content. I think the next iteration will be with an even softer profile like some others are doing.

I think I'm learning that you don't need a high sulfate level for hops to come through as long as your saturating the wort with plenty of late hops, and keeping proper pH all the way to the glass.

 

[Colbizle]

I've used 1318 and handful of times, and at first the esters were a little too high. This is reportedly the strain Shaun uses, but I'm still not convinced yet. My last brew with this strain I fermented cooler than usual to help reduce esters. I think it was in the low 60's, which at first I could still pick up those familiar esters, but as time went on seemed to blend better with the beer, or at least became less noticeable to me.

Of late I've been using a hybrid Maine beer co dregs mixed with 1056, and getting good results. The mouthfeel on my last beer has been amazing, but I must confess there was a pound of flaked barley in there, but I also steeped the hell out of it, and the finishing pH was around 4.40. Combined with a sulfate and chloride level of 175/100 made for what I feel was an amazing flavor and mouthfeel, although I think it was just a little too harsh from the mineral content. I think the next iteration will be with an even softer profile like some others are doing.

I think I'm learning that you don't need a high sulfate level for hops to come through as long as your saturating the wort with plenty of late hops, and keeping proper pH all the way to the glass.

I'm curious, what is low 60s.. like 63-64F? Wyeast's website states 64F - 74F as the standard range so I'm interested on low it can go and still produce favorable results.

"you don't need high sulfate level for hops to come through as long as your saturating the wort with plenty of late hops"

^ Me too! I'm finding that an immense amount of flavor/aroma can be achieved by large dry hop additions as well.

 

[Callacave]

I'm curious, what is low 60s.. like 63-64F? Wyeast's website states 64F - 74F as the standard range so I'm interested on low it can go and still produce favorable results.

"you don't need high sulfate level for hops to come through as long as your saturating the wort with plenty of late hops"

^ Me too! I'm finding that an immense amount of flavor/aroma can be achieved by large dry hop additions as well.

Just checked my notes. I fermented at 64, then after 3 days ramped to 66, then the day after to 68 to help finish out. The beer finished at 1.012. A Little lower than I wanted, and my sulfate/chloride additions ended up being 195/43. The beer is definitely more crisp, and more drying on the tongue compared to my recent brews with less sulfate and more chloride.

Maybe going lower to 60 would help reduce the esters even more? Maybe like someone said earlier, Shaun could be using some hybrid form of Conan. He initially used it, but switched shortly after opening.

For my next brew I'm definitely keeping it simple like Shaun does, and just doing some Rahr Pale and crystal. Want to see how pH, late hops and softer water contribute to mouthfeel.

I'm heading up to VT visit some of the wife's family in a couple of weekends, so of course I'll be making a trip to HF. It'll be a good recalibration of the taste buds to see how close I've been coming on my latest brews.

 

[g-star]

I've never adjusted in the kettle post mash because my kettle ph ends up being where it should be. I'd assume if you missed your mash ph by such great lengths that the damage has been done and adjusting kettle ph won't contribute much but I'm open to hearing more on this topic.

Cheers.

You should at least take some readings. If your water is even moderately alkaline, the sparge will bring the final kettle pH up as much as 0.2 - 0.3 units if you are brewing a pale beer with little in the way of crystal malts and not acidifying. Thus you may be mashing at 5.2, but end up with a kettle pH near 5.5, which can result in a less "bright" tasting beer.

 

[The_Glue]

Interestingly this thread makes me want to brew my first "low-mineral" brew.
All of my previous beers had a really rough bitterness.
My water contains (in ppm) 90 Ca, 50 Mg, 50 SO4, 10 Cl, 460 (!) HCO3 by default.
Despite this i always added some gypsum to get up to 300ish ppm in SO4.
I add then some phosporic acid to get down the mash to 5.4ish ph.

Now during the boil my boil-off rate is around 33%. So i think in the finished beer i end up with 300 Ca, 75 Mg, 450 So4, 15 Cl.

Should i forget about the sulfate addition and try to lower my boil off rate while trying some out some of the other tips in the topic?

I am even thinking about trying out DME to avoid most of the mash problems but then i am not sure about how to set the water ph.

 

[Callacave]

You should at least take some readings. If your water is even moderately alkaline, the sparge will bring the final kettle pH up as much as 0.2 - 0.3 units if you are brewing a pale beer with little in the way of crystal malts and not acidifying. Thus you may be mashing at 5.2, but end up with a kettle pH near 5.5, which can result in a less "bright" tasting beer.

I emailed Sean Lawson a while back, and he keeps his mash pH around 5.4-5.6 (room temp) for everything he does. His beers are pretty amazing. I usually target around 5.4, and acidify my sparge to 5.5. I know lower pH can typically produce "brighter" flavors, but I think there might be a trade off regarding mouthfeel. Plus, the Pales and IPAs I've been making lately don't lack in the "bright" department.

I think flavor enhancement is really in the finished pH of your beer, and starting out at a certain point in your mash can certainly influence that, as well as the strain of yeast from what I've read, and I'm really staring to buy into the idea of saturating your wort with hops via steeping can help with that mouthfeel that we're all after.

 

[Colbizle]

You should at least take some readings. If your water is even moderately alkaline, the sparge will bring the final kettle pH up as much as 0.2 - 0.3 units if you are brewing a pale beer with little in the way of crystal malts and not acidifying. Thus you may be mashing at 5.2, but end up with a kettle pH near 5.5, which can result in a less "bright" tasting beer.

I do.

I use phosphate to bring my sparge water to 5.5.

Notes from my last brew session:
Mash ph ranging from 5.35 - 5.45
Final mash ph 5.4
Kettle ph 5.42
Pre-Fermentation ph 5.15

We'll see how this finishes after fermentation.

 

[Colbizle]

I emailed Sean Lawson a while back, and he keeps his mash pH around 5.4-5.6 (room temp) for everything he does. His beers are pretty amazing. I usually target around 5.4, and acidify my sparge to 5.5. I know lower pH can typically produce "brighter" flavors, but I think there might be a trade off regarding mouthfeel. Plus, the Pales and IPAs I've been making lately don't lack in the "bright" department.

I think flavor enhancement is really in the finished pH of your beer, and starting out at a certain point in your mash can certainly influence that, as well as the strain of yeast from what I've read, and I'm really staring to buy into the idea of saturating your wort with hops via steeping can help with that mouthfeel that we're all after.

"I did some research and experimentation with this last summer while working on my book. I think the desired target range is 4.1 to 4.5, with the tradeoff being between flavor and stability. The higher the pH, the better the flavor. The lower the pH, the better the (microbial) stability. Above 4.5, you start to get into food safety issues (i.e., stuff can grow in it). Lowering the pH does make the beer seem thinner, and eventually starts getting tart. I only used phosphoric acid (it's an ingredient in soft drinks as a flavor enhancer).

When the pH of beer is above 4.6 or so, it does have a bland taste, sort of like underseasoned (undersalted) food. Adding phosphoric acid did improve the flavor, to a point. Like salting food, there is an optimal point and it's somewhat subjective. Going too far means you start tasting the flavor enhancer and not the enhanced flavor. The flavor impact was different based on the serving temperature as well. Measuring at room temperature and then tasting at the colder serving temperature can result in over-adjusted beer. The desired final pH is also affected by the flavor profile (beer style) of the subject beer; there isn't one magic pH where all beers taste best.

I did find that finished beer did buffer pH change quite a bit. Certainly more so than RO water. Another way of illustrating that adding acids to adjust pH is not something with an easy linear formula. You have to add and test carefully, at least until you've neutralized the buffer and start moving the pH."

- Gordon strong

Taken from:
http://discussions.probrewer.com/sh...pH-at-different-points-in-the-brewing-process

 

[Colbizle]

Interestingly this thread makes me want to brew my first "low-mineral" brew.
All of my previous beers had a really rough bitterness.
My water contains (in ppm) 90 Ca, 50 Mg, 50 SO4, 10 Cl, 460 (!) HCO3 by default.
Despite this i always added some gypsum to get up to 300ish ppm in SO4.
I add then some phosporic acid to get down the mash to 5.4ish ph.

Now during the boil my boil-off rate is around 33%. So i think in the finished beer i end up with 300 Ca, 75 Mg, 450 So4, 15 Cl.

Should i forget about the sulfate addition and try to lower my boil off rate while trying some out some of the other tips in the topic?

I am even thinking about trying out DME to avoid most of the mash problems but then i am not sure about how to set the water ph.

50 So4 and 10 CL probably would produce a fine hoppy beer if you want to try not adding anything other than simply phosphoric acid to bring your mash ph down to a PH of 5.4.

FWIW, I brewed a double IPA that took 3rd place in the IIPA category in the minnesota mash out this year with zero water additions and target mash ph of 5.4. I have fairly low mineralized soft water.

"Should i forget about the sulfate addition and try to lower my boil off rate while trying some out some of the other tips in the topic? I am even thinking about trying out DME to avoid most of the mash problems but then i am not sure about how to set the water ph"

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, I usually just collect enough of wort to accommodate my boil off rate. I use beersmith which has served me well, Sounds like you have some boil off and efficiency issues. You may want to start a new thread and maybe we can help you nail down your issue there.

Cheers!

 

[LakesideBrewing]

Hey all,

I'm using Wyeast 1318 for the first time after reading this thread. I usually use Conan for my DIPA's but thought I'd give 1318 a try on a recipe that I've done multiple times. My question is about dry hopping when using 1318. This strain is a true Top Cropper! After one week There is still a thick, 3 inch krausen on top with no signs of dropping. What do you guys do? Cold crash, rack first, or just throw the dry hops right on top?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Callacave]

Hey all,

I'm using Wyeast 1318 for the first time after reading this thread. I usually use Conan for my DIPA's but thought I'd give 1318 a try on a recipe that I've done multiple times. My question is about dry hopping when using 1318. This strain is a true Top Cropper! After one week There is still a thick, 3 inch krausen on top with no signs of dropping. What do you guys do? Cold crash, rack first, or just throw the dry hops right on top?

Thanks,
Mike

Yeah, that sucker loves to stick around forever. 1318 always seems to ferment quickly for the first couple of days, then take its sweet time till it's finally done on the second week.

I usually just gently push krausen aside and drop the hops right in, giving them a gentle stir to get them wet.

 

[Colbizle]

Yeah, that sucker loves to stick around forever. 1318 always seems to ferment quickly for the first couple of days, then take its sweet time till it's finally done on the second week.

I usually just gently push krausen aside and drop the hops right in, giving them a gentle stir to get them wet.

My experience has been the same. I also top crop the yeast, its so much easier and cleaner then trying to wash it.

 

[Callacave]

So just got back from our trip to VT to visit family. Grabbed a handful of growlers and bottles from Hill Farmstead, as well as some pints of HF at some local establishments.

I'm not through all of my growlers yet, and will be giving some to friends, but I think we're definitely on the right track flavor/aroma/mouthfeel wise with this discussion. I just poured my Nelson/Simcoe IPA after having a Legitimacy from HF, and the mouthfeel is definitely very similar. HF brews are super cloudy from being saturated with hop oils, and I'm getting the same from my beers.

Like I said previously I will go a little softer on the water profile for my next brew just to see the outcome, but it feels great to be nailing this one, and getting extremely close to what HF is producing!!

Don't be afraid to throw a serious amount of hops after the boil, and steep for a good chunk of time, along with a decent amount of chloride and a lower than you would expect level of sulfate. No need to go above 175. It'll just dry out the beer, and suck out that full/airy/pillowy mouthfeel we're all after.

 

[Colbizle]

So just got back from our trip to VT to visit family. Grabbed a handful of growlers and bottles from Hill Farmstead, as well as some pints of HF at some local establishments.

I'm not through all of my growlers yet, and will be giving some to friends, but I think we're definitely on the right track flavor/aroma/mouthfeel wise with this discussion. I just poured my Nelson/Simcoe IPA after have a Legitimacy from HF, and the mouthfeel is definitely very similar. HF brews are super cloudy from being saturated with hop oils, and I'm getting the same from my beers.

Like I said previously I will go a little softer on the water profile for my next brew just to see the outcome, but it feels great to be nailing this one, and getting extremely close to what HF is producing!!

Don't be afraid to throw a serious amount of hops after the boil, and steep for a good chunk of time, along with a decent amount of chloride and a lower than you would expect level of sulfate. No need to go above 175. It'll just dry out the beer, and suck out that full/airy/pillowy mouthfeel we're all after.

Wow Callacave that is really awesome to hear. So cool that you got to experience all that and then even do a comparison! I'm so jealous yet grateful that you're willing to share your results. Solid work!

Well that does explain his haze then.., it's not the yeast per se but heavy late additions and dry hop additions. Cool!

 

[Colbizle]

So just got back from our trip to VT to visit family. Grabbed a handful of growlers and bottles from Hill Farmstead, as well as some pints of HF at some local establishments.

I'm not through all of my growlers yet, and will be giving some to friends, but I think we're definitely on the right track flavor/aroma/mouthfeel wise with this discussion. I just poured my Nelson/Simcoe IPA after having a Legitimacy from HF, and the mouthfeel is definitely very similar. HF brews are super cloudy from being saturated with hop oils, and I'm getting the same from my beers.

Like I said previously I will go a little softer on the water profile for my next brew just to see the outcome, but it feels great to be nailing this one, and getting extremely close to what HF is producing!!

Don't be afraid to throw a serious amount of hops after the boil, and steep for a good chunk of time, along with a decent amount of chloride and a lower than you would expect level of sulfate. No need to go above 175. It'll just dry out the beer, and suck out that full/airy/pillowy mouthfeel we're all after.

Also, any thoughts on his house yeast strain?

 

[The_Glue]

So just got back from our trip to VT to visit family. Grabbed a handful of growlers and bottles from Hill Farmstead, as well as some pints of HF at some local establishments.

I'm not through all of my growlers yet, and will be giving some to friends, but I think we're definitely on the right track flavor/aroma/mouthfeel wise with this discussion. I just poured my Nelson/Simcoe IPA after having a Legitimacy from HF, and the mouthfeel is definitely very similar. HF brews are super cloudy from being saturated with hop oils, and I'm getting the same from my beers.

Like I said previously I will go a little softer on the water profile for my next brew just to see the outcome, but it feels great to be nailing this one, and getting extremely close to what HF is producing!!

Don't be afraid to throw a serious amount of hops after the boil, and steep for a good chunk of time, along with a decent amount of chloride and a lower than you would expect level of sulfate. No need to go above 175. It'll just dry out the beer, and suck out that full/airy/pillowy mouthfeel we're all after.

So what did you do in terms of water profile, ph adjusting, malts etc. This thread gets confusing.

 

[Callacave]

Also, any thoughts on his house yeast strain?

I'm pretty convinced it's not 1318. It's something that's more neutral, and doesn't get in the way, or if he's using an English strain it's got to be fermented cool enough to reduce any esters to a minimum. Wonder if it's just a slight variation on Chico? Not sure. On my last beer I used 1056 with some Maine Beer Co dregs thrown in for good measure. I wouldn't hesitate to use whatever strain you like.

The difference in his beers are how dialed in they are to me. Perfect amount of flavor and aroma, the right bitterness for the style. Anybody can throw in a bunch of hops and have flavor up the wazoo, but to me it can be fatiguing on the tongue. His beers make you want to come back for more.

A little off topic, but he didn't have anything dark on tap at the time. I love his Porter, Everett. To me it drinks more like a stout, but is so damn awesome. I also had one of his saison's, Anna on tap. Such a treat. Never had it on tap before because he usually bottles most of it.

 

[Callacave]

So what did you do in terms of water profile, ph adjusting, malts etc. This thread gets confusing.

My last IPA I had a water profile of 175 sulfate and 100 Chloride. I initially thought it was too minerally, but now it's tasting great to me. I think I'm going to go a touch lower on the chloride next time, and the same with sulfate.

Keep the malts simple. Some Pale and a touch of Crystal is fine. My last beer had some flaked barley, so next time I'm going to eliminate it to see how the mouthfeel is affected.

Mash pH was 5.4, with a final pH of 4.4. The final pH can vary depending on yeast strain and any other factor. I didn't adjust the final pH, just got lucky where it ended up.

 

[ejf063]

subscribed.....

 

[Braufessor]

Great info callacave. So, what would you do with hopping at this point? If you were going to brew a beer knowing what you know now, what is your next move?

**Everett is AWESOME by the way..... my favorite porter ever. It has a VERY high finishing gravity 1.030 range I believe.

I have 5 beers at various stages right now where I experimented with water, pH, chloride/sulfate, etc. I am really optimistic after tasting my first two - A citra IPA (only about 5.7%abv) and an Amber ale. All the beers used Conan yeast.

The citra is about 5 days on gas. The amber is going into a keg momentarily.

The main thing I changed in these beers is this:
1.) I did not go 100% RO like I often do. I went about 50-60% carbon filtered tap water..... this gives me a bicarbonate value of 150-180. I used about 2-4ml of lactic acid in the mash and a bit less in the sparge water to bring mash pH into range.
2.) Cut way back on sulfate - all the beers I brewed recently were in the 70-100ppm of sulfate. Chloride I increase up to 70-150 in various batches.

pH's all roughly fell in this range:
*Mash = 5.36-5.42
*Kettle = 5.38-5.46
*Post Boil = 5.25-5.35
*After fermentation= Citra and Amber were both 4.45

In general, with all of them, I put in a single bittering of 1-1.5 ounces of warrior for 60. Then I put in 6-14 ounces of hops at the end. Usually 2-4 at flame out, 3-5 for a long steep/stand under 180 degrees, and 2-3 in dry hop toward the end of primary ferment around day 5-7.

The citra IPA and Amber are both really good - at least to my tastes. They are full bodied, somewhat hazy (not crazy though). No harshness or sharpness to the hop bitterness. More tropical and fruity.

I just brewed a Citra/Galaxy following the above..... but the big difference is I went 70 sulfate and 150 chloride. Kept that bicarbonate up around 150 again. Much cloudier post boil than any of my normal beers.... (high chloride= cloudiness????) Really looking forward to seeing how the next ones come out (Heady clone, Citra/Simcoe/Columbus APA, and this citra/galaxy.) Gonna do one more in this realm (Citra/Mosaic) before evaluating my next move.

 

[Callacave]

Great info callacave. So, what would you do with hopping at this point? If you were going to brew a beer knowing what you know now, what is your next move?

**Everett is AWESOME by the way..... my favorite porter ever. It has a VERY high finishing gravity 1.030 range I believe.

I have 5 beers at various stages right now where I experimented with water, pH, chloride/sulfate, etc. I am really optimistic after tasting my first two - A citra IPA (only about 5.7%abv) and an Amber ale. All the beers used Conan yeast.

The citra is about 5 days on gas. The amber is going into a keg momentarily.

The main thing I changed in these beers is this:
1.) I did not go 100% RO like I often do. I went about 50-60% carbon filtered tap water..... this gives me a bicarbonate value of 150-180. I used about 2-4ml of lactic acid in the mash and a bit less in the sparge water to bring mash pH into range.
2.) Cut way back on sulfate - all the beers I brewed recently were in the 70-100ppm of sulfate. Chloride I increase up to 70-150 in various batches.

pH's all roughly fell in this range:
*Mash = 5.36-5.42
*Kettle = 5.38-5.46
*Post Boil = 5.25-5.35
*After fermentation= Citra and Amber were both 4.45

In general, with all of them, I put in a single bittering of 1-1.5 ounces of warrior for 60. Then I put in 6-14 ounces of hops at the end. Usually 2-4 at flame out, 3-5 for a long steep/stand under 180 degrees, and 2-3 in dry hop toward the end of primary ferment around day 5-7.

The citra IPA and Amber are both really good - at least to my tastes. They are full bodied, somewhat hazy (not crazy though). No harshness or sharpness to the hop bitterness. More tropical and fruity.

I just brewed a Citra/Galaxy following the above..... but the big difference is I went 70 sulfate and 150 chloride. Kept that bicarbonate up around 150 again. Much cloudier post boil than any of my normal beers.... (high chloride= cloudiness????) Really looking forward to seeing how the next ones come out (Heady clone, Citra/Simcoe/Columbus APA, and this citra/galaxy.) Gonna do one more in this realm (Citra/Mosaic) before evaluating my next move.

I think you're right on track with your hop additions Braufessor. Sounds like you're making some killer hoppy ales. For my last two brews I've been bittering with Hopshots at 60, and tossing in 8 oz at 140F for 30 min, holding the temp there the whole time. My next move is probably going to be steeping at 170F, and/or flameout and 170F. Maybe I'll just split a batch and try both.

I did do just a flameout addition a few brews ago, and let it sit covered for 30 min. To me it produced a more cleaner hop flavor for lack of a better term? Not the super cloudy, juicy ones I have from a 140F steep. I think I also used less hops, so I'm sure that's contributing. I think it's so much fun to try different steeping temps. You can coax different flavors from the same hops just by changing the temp.

I see that you use lactic for pH adjustments. I know from this forum it isn't the most most neutral flavor out of all of the options. I started out with lactic, but now use phosphoric because it's the most neutral tasting. Not that it would make any noticeable difference to your beers, but might be a worthwhile tweak?

 

[The_Glue]

My last IPA I had a water profile of 175 sulfate and 100 Chloride. I initially thought it was too minerally, but now it's tasting great to me. I think I'm going to go a touch lower on the chloride next time, and the same with sulfate.

Keep the malts simple. Some Pale and a touch of Crystal is fine. My last beer had some flaked barley, so next time I'm going to eliminate it to see how the mouthfeel is affected.

Mash pH was 5.4, with a final pH of 4.4. The final pH can vary depending on yeast strain and any other factor. I didn't adjust the final pH, just got lucky where it ended up.

Thanks! What is your boil off rate? Mine is around 33% so if i would start with 175/100 sulfate/chloride brewing water i would end up around 240/150 in the fermenter (post boil)

 

[Callacave]

Thanks! What is your boil off rate? Mine is around 33% so if i would start with 175/100 sulfate/chloride brewing water i would end up around 240/150 in the fermenter (post boil)

I use Bru'n Water for my mineral additions. It will calculate the amount to add based off your batch volume.

I try to keep my boil off rate around 1gal/hr

 

[Braufessor]

I see that you use lactic for pH adjustments. I know from this forum it isn't the most most neutral flavor out of all of the options. I started out with lactic, but now use phosphoric because it's the most neutral tasting. Not that it would make any noticeable difference to your beers, but might be a worthwhile tweak?

I suppose the main reason I use it is that I typically use very little...... 1.5-3ml maybe in 5 gallons of mash water and less in the sparge water. I am collecting 8 gallons preboil, and finishing with 6.5 gallons. So, it is just easy to use. I do have some 10% phospohoric sitting there too.... but that just takes so much. So, for the most part it is just habit, and the fact that I am generally using much less than the often cited upper limit of 1ml/gallon. Maybe when I get some other things dialed in I will do two side by side with the different acids to see if I can detect any difference.

 

[Callacave]

I suppose the main reason I use it is that I typically use very little...... 1.5-3ml maybe in 5 gallons of mash water and less in the sparge water. I am collecting 8 gallons preboil, and finishing with 6.5 gallons. So, it is just easy to use. I do have some 10% phospohoric sitting there too.... but that just takes so much. So, for the most part it is just habit, and the fact that I am generally using much less than the often cited upper limit of 1ml/gallon. Maybe when I get some other things dialed in I will do two side by side with the different acids to see if I can detect any difference.

Yup...I'm sure no one could tell a difference. Just something I happened to notice that was different from what I'm using. I use 85% Phosphoric, but in the end I'm sure it makes no difference since I'm assuming the 10% is just diluted down with water, but who knows...

 

[Colbizle]

Thanks! What is your boil off rate? Mine is around 33% so if i would start with 175/100 sulfate/chloride brewing water i would end up around 240/150 in the fermenter (post boil)

As Callacave had mention use a water spreedsheet for your water additions. Bru'un water is an amazing tool.

With that said, boiling down wort will not concentration your ions. They are dissolved in the wort, so they too will be boiled off with it.

 

[Colbizle]

Yup...I'm sure no one could tell a difference. Just something I happened to notice that was different from what I'm using. I use 85% Phosphoric, but in the end I'm sure it makes no difference since I'm assuming the 10% is just diluted down with water, but who knows...

My LHBS only carries 10%, I'm always like Whoa when I realize how much I have to use. Lactic acid is more potent so you use way less. I think 10% exists is so people don't accidentally use to much haha..

 

[BeatnikTom]

This discussion has me doing a few mouthfeel experiments as well.

Nothing as amazing and well documented as some other posters, but I can confirm one thing that's been discussed.

Yeast.

I brew a Dry Irish Stout regularly. I struggle with the mouthfeel, that's why and how I found this thread. I paid more attention to the PH, using a meter to fine-tune the PH which was dropping farther than I thought from the dark grains. This improved the flavor and I think helped with "mouthfeel" perception because it rounds out the beer, it's "softer" now.

Then I brewed it the same way but with Denny's Favorite 1450 from Wyeast and the mouthfeel improved considerably. It's neutral (yeast characteristics) but very creamy.

Secondly, I recently brewed a Evil Dead/Evil Twin clone. Jamil's recipe. I've brewed it a few times before but this time,the finishing hops stood a few minutes too long before my whirlpool started, so it was more bitter than usual because it's all late hopped (aka hop bursted). Then I dry hopped the hell out of it. Used US-05 for it.

Guess what? Hazy as **** but one of the most amazing mouthfeels in any beer I've ever brewed and significantly more mouthfeel than previous batches of the same beer.

You guys are on to something.

 

[Indian_villager]

With that said, boiling down wort will not concentration your ions. They are dissolved in the wort, so they too will be boiled off with it.

This is completely inaccurate. Boiling is a phase change of the water that leaves most of the ions behind. Once water is in the gas phase it will not be able to dissociate the salts effectively to carry a good amount.

If you have a vigorous enough boil that can entrain some mist however you will be better at carrying out some ions, but at the end of the day the concentration of ions in the pot will still increase, just not in as linear of a fashion.

 

[Colbizle]

This is completely inaccurate. Boiling is a phase change of the water that leaves most of the ions behind. Once water is in the gas phase it will not be able to dissociate the salts effectively to carry a good amount.

If you have a vigorous enough boil that can entrain some mist however you will be better at carrying out some ions, but at the end of the day the concentration of ions in the pot will still increase, just not in as linear of a fashion.

Ah, I am indeed foolishly wrong! Thank you for correcting me. More info from Martin on the subject:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=509001

I guess, I just assumed that this is part of the overall ion calculations and concentration should not be an issue or a concern in the final product.

 

[mosaicbrewer]

Edward finished beer sulfate is 250. magnesium is quite high. Think CL is higher or lower?
Why is everyone using oats and stuff? His ingredients are listed on his page! Say someone with a wheat only type allergy read his page and consumed his beer. That may be a problem if he uses wheat or non GF oats and someone has a bad reaction.
He outlines so much about his beer, and the gravities are on point for 1318 and many medium attenuating yeasts.
Rahr has been said to be one of his base malts.
Lots of good chatter on this thread.
How many ounces per gallon do you all think? When you say he uses extract, sure maybe, but I doubt it's in his single hops, unless he is getting citra extract galaxy extract etc...

 

[Colbizle]

Edward finished beer sulfate is 250. magnesium is quite high. Think CL is higher or lower?
Why is everyone using oats and stuff? His ingredients are listed on his page! Say someone with a wheat only type allergy read his page and consumed his beer. That may be a problem if he uses wheat or non GF oats and someone has a bad reaction.
He outlines so much about his beer, and the gravities are on point for 1318 and many medium attenuating yeasts.
Rahr has been said to be one of his base malts.
Lots of good chatter on this thread.
How many ounces per gallon do you all think? When you say he uses extract, sure maybe, but I doubt it's in his single hops, unless he is getting citra extract galaxy extract etc...

"Edward finished beer sulfate is 250. magnesium is quite high. Think CL is higher or lower?"
I'm curious in how you know that/got that information.

With that said, if you look back a few pages (I know this thread is getting lengthy) a few of us have tried SO4/CL with varying results. I recently made two brews at 175:100 and found it too minerally.


Why is everyone using oats and stuff?
Maybe in an attempt to get close, but I agree, it's not the answer.

His gravities are on point for 1318
Agreed, he's def using a strain like 1318 or conan or something along those lines. Callacave went to HF just recently and he mentioned he didn't pick up the esters that those strains typically throw even when fermented cooler. So it's still a mystery until someone cultures some and does a side by side. Maybe Callacave will hop in here and give some insight.

Rahr has been said to be one of his base malts.
He does in fact use rahr proof. I like rahr malting, shakopee is only 15 minutes from my house.

Welcome to the discussion! Cheers.

 

[BeatnikTom]

He does in fact use rahr proof.

I love the kiddie pool lid!