Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

CornyKegs 728
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Braufessor said:
I have been honing a basic IPA/APA recipe down and am looking forward to getting it right where I want it and then experimenting with the water. I think the water is the key thing here that differentiates the "typical" east coast IPA and west coast IPA.

The grainbill I have been using is:
92% 2row
2% each of Wheat, Flaked oats, caramel 20 and Honey malt.
**I like the idea of golden naked oats and/or flaked barley too.

Generally, I have been using Conan yeast.

I have been using RO water and going 275 Sulfate and 30 Chloride. It makes a great beer. But, I have been able to sample a lot of the vermont beers, and it does not have that feel to it.

When I get my recipe right where I want it, I am going to brew 3 beers on the same weekend. All 3 exactly the same but with water differences:

Beer 1 - 275 sulfate/30 chloride
Beer 2 - 150 sulfate/150 chloride
Beer 3 - 30 sulfate/275 chloride

Just to see what the different extremes and middle ground do. If I was going to randomly guess at something and try one thing, that was different, I might go 100-125 sulfate and 175-200 chloride.

mash ph I would be shooting for that 5.3-5.4 range.

All RO water.

At any rate, I hope to find time for this experiment in the near future.
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Make sure you write that experiment up!
 
One more note...I can for sure tell a significant difference in creamy mouth feel when pushing beer with beer gas (70% nitrogen 30% Co2) as compared to 100% Co2.
 
So am lucky enough to be st Nerax when they tapped the firkin of Edward. Carbonation, as expected, was low and the pillowiness of the mouth feel decreased. Based o. Grain bill discussion already and this it lead me to believe that water profile is the dominant aspect with the "right" carbonation coming into play as well.
 
I think we are all getting close here and I like the ideas that keep coming. I have been doing a quite of bit of playing with my water, pH and grain bill to really hone in on my hoppy beers. I wouldn't say that I am trying to replicate what HF and TH are producing as far as mouthfeel, pillowy carb, etc, but they were definitely inspiration. Some of the most drinkable beers I have had to date.

FWIW, I recently brewed a single-hop Nelson Saison, using Yeast Bay's Saison/Brett blend (3rd Gen)...75% pilsner, 15% flaked oats, some white wheat and carapils for body. Low IBU, intense whirlpool and huge dry hop.

Anyways, the fruitiness of the hops and the yeast blend made it a seriously enjoyable beer, with a super creamy mouthfeel and prickly carb...mild bitterness but fades immediately and no real hop bite. It honestly went quicker than any other keg I have had on tap in 5 years of brewing and my friends tore it up. I can attribute this to locked in pH, adjusted water profile and obviously oats/wheat. Interestingly enough, I split this batch and the other 5G (using Conan) really didn't achieve what I wanted, so I still need to work on that profile.

So I really (obviously) agree with Shaun in that you have to develop and hone in on a water profile that really fits each individual beer (and yeast!-this is huge). I think that is the key. So in the future, I will stick to something like this for the hoppier, fruity saisons, at least with this 'house' yeast blend...and continue to work on the Pale Ale profiles (maybe try ~180 SO4 and ~120Cl)

This profile was using moderately hard Austin water. Using soft RO water could be even more beneficial.

Ca: 74
Mg: 18
Na: 26
Cl: 100
SO4: 120
Mash pH: 5.35
Boil pH (throughout): 5.1
pH in fermenter: 5.1
Final product pH: 4.3

Also, FG of 1.002, so I can confirm that higher FG isn't everything.

~10psi for 1 month prior to tapping (only because I was out of town)

Again, I am no expert here and only experimenting.

PS has anyone considered higher Sodium levels (along with higher Cl) in HF's darker beers? I haven't had any of them, but from the sound of it could be possible as well.
 
A lot of good ideas here on increasing mouthfeel. Glycerol is produced by some yeast strains (see French Saison) that helps with mouthfeel.

I really can't emphasize the impact that yeast can have on mouthfeel enough.

I just went to White Lab's tap room last week and tried a Porter brewed with 5 different yeast strains and was immediately and fully SHOCKED at the huge mouthfeel from White Lab's "Antwerp Ale" strain.

5 beers brewed with the same wort and 5 different yeast strains; one with hugely velvety mouthfeel.


Adam
 
Good to know about the Antwerp strain. Will definitely give it a try with my next porter.

It is interesting to see certain strains really pop with a grain bill, water profile, etc. This is where great beers become incredible beers.
 
Subbed. I haven't been able to track down any Hill Farmstead so far, but would really like to. Mouthfeel is always something I chase, and you all have piqued my interest.
 
I just happen to have a belgian pale finishing up with Antwerp ale. My next brew was going to be an alpine nelson clone. Should I go for it?
 
Dang, now I need to wait for Antwerp Ale to release in, what, November? BS. @biertourist just mentioned this strain to make us all miserable. Anyone know if DeKoninck can be harvested from the bottle?

EDIT - BLAM says De Koninck is bottle conditioned but not refermented in the bottle. Seems promising?
 
Yeast is important and IIRC, HF used to use Conan...not sure what they use now. Conan has been said to leave a creamy mouthfeel...

IMHO lower carbonation levels play a major roll. I've had HF more frequently at Armsby Abbey and their IPAs all seem less carbonated than your average IPA. I had an Edward back to back with a Trillium Galaxy Dry Hopped Fort Point, and the FP was noticeably more carbonated, IMHO.

In other news, my higher mash temperature (156) and increased flaked oats addition definitely improved the mouthfeel of my IPA, keeping all other variables constant (no surprise there). I used 10.5% flaked oats, and may push it a touch higher. I didn't naturally carbonate, because the more I thought about that, the less likely I believe HF does this since hop aroma is so volatile, I doubt they would push the beer back an extra week or two just to carbonate.

Looking forward to Braufessor's experiment. I am considering switching over to Conan for a less attenuating yeast (currently using WLP090) for my IPAs. Even with a higher mash temp, I ended at 1.009.
 
We don't have a ton of great beer options here in China, but last year I was down in Guangzhou with my wife in order to get her first US visa, and a local bar had Brewers & Union's Handwerk All-Day IPA out of South Africa on draft. The menu description mentioned lower-than-usual carbonation and bitterness for an IPA, and although I've had better IPAs in the States, I've been chasing that beer ever since - the lighter carb and smooth mouthfeel made for an IPA that lived up to the All-Day name. Just brewed a session IPA yesterday with 10% rye and a decent amount of caramel malts, and I'm hopeful that it'll at least come close when carbed around 1.9 volumes, but it looks like I'm gonna need to up my game by getting on the water chem bandwagon next.
 
I used Conan for a couple of beers, and it chews through everything. I did a wheat IPA, thinking all the extra body from 60% red wheat would stand up to Conan, but no. Obliterated. Very thin, dry beer. I mashed at 148, which I guess was my error, but I think I'm done with Conan.

I'm interested in hearing how WLP090 goes. I haven't quite gotten my hands on it. I'd like to try some of the other American strains that don't get as much attention, but I just haven't gotten to it. I really like WLP006, and I think I'm going to do an expanded run with it. I'll let you know how it goes.

@FatDragon, I'm starting to think that crystal has more to do with it than I thought. I generally just stick to base malts, but I think that crystal does more than I wanted to admit. I'm going to try working some in too, even if it's just C10 or C15.
 
I just ordered some Denny's yeast..... gonna try that.

In regard to crystal - I have been using a bit of crystal 20 and also some honey malt. gives a hint of color, some sweetness, but nothing like you get from caramel 60 or something like that.

I also use some wheat and flaked oats.

92% 2 row, 2% each of cara20, honey, oats and wheat..... still nice and light, but some sweetness and mouthfeel and body.

Sampling a Citra/centennial/cascade/comet/ahtanum pale ale right now. 12 days old. 1 day on the gas..... I think it is really quite good and would lend itself to some experimenting for this project. I might retry it with some water adjustments, slightly higher mash and denny's yeast.
 
Barley_Bob said:
Dang, now I need to wait for Antwerp Ale to release in, what, November? BS. @biertourist just mentioned this strain to make us all miserable.
Click to expand...

What an incredibly dark and depressing outlook you have on the world...

I think you missed the point. I'll make it very simple for you: the point is, yeast strain matters when it comes to mouth feel. (Not that you need the Antwerp strain) -no need to wait.

No need for "BS" comments.
 
Barley_Bob said:
I used Conan for a couple of beers, and it chews through everything. I did a wheat IPA, thinking all the extra body from 60% red wheat would stand up to Conan, but no. Obliterated. Very thin, dry beer.
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Attenuation and mouth feel do not have a 1:1 relationship.

See the French Saison strains for an extreme example; there are few saccharomyces strains that have higher attenuation and will dry out a beer more but beers made with this yeast strain still have a nice creamy mouthfeel from the yeast's production of glycerol.

Attenuation / Final Gravity is only one factor.


A great article from the Journal of the UK-based Institute of Brewing and Distilling that goes into the physical and chemical parameters which may contribute to beer mouth feel: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1993.tb01143.x/pdf


It's interesting that that article mentions that high molecular weight proteins and specifically the colloids formed from them are highly important for beer "mellowness" and "palate fullness". -The most famous such colloid would be chill haze; something that may certainly be present in Hill Farmstead beers given their cloudiness and huge hopping levels.

-US 2 row malts have much higher protein levels -as protein conversion continues in the mashtun we see large proteins break down into peptides and eventually amino acids. Doing a high temp single infusion mash with typical high DP US 2 row -and doing a shorter than normal mash would both keep more less fermentable staches around (Dextrins) AND more of these larger proteins around -we know that thinks like Flaked barley, which has been mentioned on this thread quite a few times now will also introduce more protein. Having a lot of these large molecular weight proteins AND dextrins AND then chill haze colloids that form by having those large molecular weight proteins in solution in the presence of large amounts of hop-derived polyphenols WOULD result in lots of protein/tannins colloids being formed.

-De Clerck and Narziss both agree that higher protein malt will increase the amount of high molecular weight proteins in the finished beer so I find it super interesting that combining crazy american high hop levels along with our high protein / enzyme malt (which europe considers inferior for brewing and I'd generally agree for all malt beers, especially strong ones), would be uniquely well-suited to creating these very silky / pillowy yet extremely hoppy beers. -If anything should be an American beer specialty, this is it.


On the subject of Beta Glucans / Oats, the article seems to agree with another poster that felt that flaked barley helped out much more. Beta Glucans certainly add to the viscosity but seemed to have only a mild coorelation to "sensory viscosity"; personally I definitely find an improvement, but a trained sensory panel is hard to agree with; I get the feeling that they're making pretty detailed distinctions.


Adam
 
Braufessor said:
I just ordered some Denny's yeast..... gonna try that.

In regard to crystal - I have been using a bit of crystal 20 and also some honey malt. gives a hint of color, some sweetness, but nothing like you get from caramel 60 or something like that.

I also use some wheat and flaked oats.

92% 2 row, 2% each of cara20, honey, oats and wheat..... still nice and light, but some sweetness and mouthfeel and body.

Sampling a Citra/centennial/cascade/comet/ahtanum pale ale right now. 12 days old. 1 day on the gas..... I think it is really quite good and would lend itself to some experimenting for this project. I might retry it with some water adjustments, slightly higher mash and denny's yeast.
Click to expand...


Dennys 1450 gives an awesome mouthfeel in dark beers I have found. I'm fermenting Denny's Rye Ipa recipe with it now hoping for the same.
 
biertourist said:
What an incredibly dark and depressing outlook you have on the world...

I think you missed the point. I'll make it very simple for you: the point is, yeast strain matters when it comes to mouth feel. (Not that you need the Antwerp strain) -no need to wait.

No need for "BS" comments.
Click to expand...

Friendly ribbing.
 
Barley_Bob said:
I used Conan for a couple of beers, and it chews through everything. I did a wheat IPA, thinking all the extra body from 60% red wheat would stand up to Conan, but no. Obliterated. Very thin, dry beer. I mashed at 148, which I guess was my error, but I think I'm done with Conan.

I'm interested in hearing how WLP090 goes. I haven't quite gotten my hands on it. I'd like to try some of the other American strains that don't get as much attention, but I just haven't gotten to it. I really like WLP006, and I think I'm going to do an expanded run with it. I'll let you know how it goes.

@FatDragon, I'm starting to think that crystal has more to do with it than I thought. I generally just stick to base malts, but I think that crystal does more than I wanted to admit. I'm going to try working some in too, even if it's just C10 or C15.
Click to expand...

WLP090 is like WLP001 on steroids. A great strain, but too attenuative for this application.

Crystal malts are always tricky. I usually use them for a touch of sweetness, but more so for obtaining that perfect orange hue. I think they can detract and battle the hops when used at more than 5% or so, which is the problem I'm having right now.

I've settled on eliminating the C40 and going for a 90 minute boil instead on my next batch.
 
Anyone have more experience with Wyeast 1318 on this? I'm about to run a trial of IPA's with 1318 on different water profiles/mineral levels. I think its pretty safe to rule out 001/1056 and possibly Conan.
 
Zodiak, I have used it a handful of times. I'm sure you've read that this is possibly the yeast Shaun uses. I have one more IPA that's carbing right now using 1318.

Based on the flavor profile this yeast gives out, I'm starting to doubt that this is what he uses. This last brew I fermented at 64, which is the coolest I've gone with this yeast. I was trying to reduce the ester production, but I'm still getting a familiar flavor coming through that I don't think I get when I drink HF.

I've even tried a much lower sulfate level with an elevated chloride level. I think I went as high as 225ppm for chloride and 100 for sulfate. Unlike what people might say that the hops would be muted because of this elevated level, I didn't experience that. I thought the hops came through well, but just didn't like the flavor I was getting.

That yeast never flocced for me, and i think I got closer to that mouthfeel we're all looking for, but I still don't think I was there. Maybe fermenting with 1318 even lower would help to get a cleaner profile, and a more modest and not so extreme level of minerals, say 100ppm of sulfate and chloride, along with a mash pH around 5.4-5.6 would help to achieve what we're looking for?

I think Shaun is doing other things that we just haven't figured out.
 
Callacave said:
Zodiak, I have used it a handful of times. I'm sure you've read that this is possibly the yeast Shaun uses. I have one more IPA that's carbing right now using 1318.

Based on the flavor profile this yeast gives out, I'm starting to doubt that this is what he uses. This last brew I fermented at 64, which is the coolest I've gone with this yeast. I was trying to reduce the ester production, but I'm still getting a familiar flavor coming through that I don't think I get when I drink HF.

I've even tried a much lower sulfate level with an elevated chloride level. I think I went as high as 225ppm for chloride and 100 for sulfate. Unlike what people might say that the hops would be muted because of this elevated level, I didn't experience that. I thought the hops came through well, but just didn't like the flavor I was getting.

That yeast never flocced for me, and i think I got closer to that mouthfeel we're all looking for, but I still don't think I was there. Maybe fermenting with 1318 even lower would help to get a cleaner profile, and a more modest and not so extreme level of minerals, say 100ppm of sulfate and chloride, along with a mash pH around 5.4-5.6 would help to achieve what we're looking for?

I think Shaun is doing other things that we just haven't figured out.
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Thanks for the response.

Per Wyeast, 64 is on the low end of the temp. Maybe Ill start out around 62 and slowly bring it up throughout a week. What is the familiar flavor that you are getting that is not in HF beers? Esters? I hate certain english esters in IPA's. I would never use something like WLP002 in an IPA.

I have experimented with high levels of chloride and def not a fan. You get a very nasty mineral composition when you take both chloride/sulfate to over 100ppm. I know Shaun said he favors chloride, but I do not think he is taking it high. Maybe something like 60ppm chloride and 30ppm sulfate to start would be appropriate?

Ive heard the same about flocculation with 1318. HF beers are all pretty hazy (same as Treehouse, Tired Hands, etc.). Im pretty confident it is an english strain they are all dealing with.
 
The flavors are definitely esters. It's not bad, just something that I can pick up easily after brewing with 1318 for a while now.

Shaun definitely uses an English strain, but either blends the esters and hop flavors perfectly, or maybe he's able to reduce the level of esters to a minimum?

My guess is he's between 100-200 ppm for sulfate, and I think you're right with the chloride, probably around 60 or so.

I feel he's doing something else though. He's huge on pH, but I don't think he's doing anything crazy, maybe just has them dialed in perfectly for each beer.

Besides the yeast contributing ha zines I'm sure the amount of dry hopping and just the massive amount of hop oils in his beer contributes to a lot of haze, plus the freshness of his beer.

Great discussion, I think VT is making some of the best beer in the world right now, and no disrespect to west coast brews...especially the drier west coast ipa, but they're missing out on the beautiful, luxurious mouthfeel of the east coast ipa, and it's not about sweetness that some west coasters seem to think east coast hoppy beers are
 
I would venture to say that HF chloride levels are well over 60ppm, and sulfate levels as you mentioned 100-200, depending on beer. High Cl levels combined with the right yeast(s) could do the trick. If you had issues with higher Cl/SO4 levels, Zodiak, it could be personal preference or the style of beer and yeasts you were working with. I have had great success with it for certain styles and moreso with a wheat/oats combo, which TH is huge on as well.

As for HF yeast, it could be fun to blend the 1318 with a higher flocculating yeast. I doubt they are using a single ale strain for these beers.

And I agree that east coast IPA's are top notch. I find it hard to really love some west coast IPA's as I find them harshly bitter and really lacking the balanced mouthfeel that I want. Of course, there are many awesome ones out West, but it is all personal preference.
 
@Callacave. Very much agree, the guys on the east are doing some incredible things with hoppy beer these days. Would you describe the 1318 then as being similar in esters to any other english strain off the top of your head? Again, I am not a fan of something like WLP002 in an IPA (even fermented cold). I really am chasing that mouthfeel we are discussing, and feel I may be able to mute the ester production with cold ferment and dry hopping the **** out of the beer with Nelson and Citra.

@ATXWolfBrew I agree to some extent. I just know when chloride levels get high along with sulfate it gets harsh. There are lots of threads about it on HBT and other forums. Something similar as it sounds to a Dortmund water profile, personal preference I think its disgusting. Def something I am not tasting in HF beers, but who really knows. I do know that Kimmich from The Alchemist likes hard water with the impression of high sulfate. I have been going high sulfate with hoppy beers for awhile, slowly backing off closer to 200ppm vs 300ppm.
 
Zodiak, I haven't brewed with enough English strains to be able to tell you if it's similar to another English strain, but if anything it's definitely a fruity type of ester, but I'm sure that doesn't help much....lol

I just brewed an IPA today using 175ppm sulfate and 100 chloride. We'll see how it comes out. This time around I used some harvested 1056 with some dregs of various Maine Beer Co brews that I keep adding to the starter just for the hell of it. I mashed at 153, and hope to get around an FG around 1.014. Edward finishes somewhere around there if I remember. These days I'm tending to enjoy sulfate levels around 175 to 225.
 
Callacave said:
Zodiak, I haven't brewed with enough English strains to be able to tell you if it's similar to another English strain, but if anything it's definitely a fruity type of ester, but I'm sure that doesn't help much....lol

I just brewed an IPA today using 175ppm sulfate and 100 chloride. We'll see how it comes out. This time around I used some harvested 1056 with some dregs of various Maine Beer Co brews that I keep adding to the starter just for the hell of it. I mashed at 153, and hope to get around an FG around 1.014. Edward finishes somewhere around there if I remember. These days I'm tending to enjoy sulfate levels around 175 to 225.
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Awesome, I can't wait to hear your results. I'm going to try a 1:1 CASO4:CACL ratio on my next IPA similar to the levels you are targeting.

I'm curious though of your thoughts on what he does for darker beers like "Earl Coffee Oatmeal Stout". Do you think forgoes the sulfates and bumps chloride only? I'm going to brew an Oatmeal stout soon and wanted to experiment with a higher chloride level.
 
Colbizle...I'm sure the amount of chloride is higher than sulfate in Earl or at the very least equal with sulfate. My guess is his pH could be slightly higher to reduce the harshness from the dark malts. I remember Shaun stating somewhere that each brew has a specific water profile that he's honed in from trial and error over the years.

I haven't had Earl in a long time, and he doesn't make it too often, but I think Everett is one of my favorite beers from him. It's just so damn chocolately/roasty with a luxuriously full/velvety mouthfeel. Damn, now I'm getting thirsty!
 
Callacave said:
Colbizle...I'm sure the amount of chloride is higher than sulfate in Earl or at the very least equal with sulfate. My guess is his pH could be slightly higher to reduce the harshness from the dark malts. I remember Shaun stating somewhere that each brew has a specific water profile that he's honed in from trial and error over the years.

I haven't had Earl in a long time, and he doesn't make it too often, but I think Everett is one of my favorite beers from him. It's just so damn chocolately/roasty with a luxuriously full/velvety mouthfeel. Damn, now I'm getting thirsty!
Click to expand...

Thanks Callacave, I've read this too through my research so far.

Honestly, I've never had the luxury of trying any of their beers. Maybe someday I will. But this newish? trend? Characteristic? of (silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel) has me extremely intrigued and just sounds damn good for most beer styles even for hoppy ones, even if it's against all conventions.. I want to see if I can achieve a similar profile characteristic in my own beers while still making them my own "style". I'm not trying to replicate exactly what HF is doing but I want to achieve a similar result. Isn't that what Homebrewing and even pro-brewing is all about? Making your own style and sharing that art with the world. :)

I usually target about 5.5 to 5.6 PH for my roasty dark beers, 5.4-5.3 for my Hoppy styles, and 5.3-5.2 for saisons, wheats, lagers, ect. Those numbers have been solidified through my online research and personal tastes.

BTW, I really appreciate all the information you provided so far in this thread it's been very insightful.
 
If you remove all the hype around HF, and just try the beer without any bias, you'll find how incredibly balanced his beers are. Bitterness is right where you want it, hop flavor, aroma, mouthfeel. He just seems to be able to dial in everything perfectly without one thing feeling like it's out of place.

I always find people talking about a beer that finishes with a slightly higher FG as being sweeter, but I don't always find that to be the case. I think it's more to do with mouthfeel. Maybe people's minds are being tricked into thinking thicker is sweeter. Unless you're adding a ton of crystal malt, or something that leaves a residual sweetness in the beer, I think it's possible to have a full and round mouthfeel with plenty of bitterness and flavor.

Shaun's recipes are extremely simple. I tried to ask him about Everett one time, and of course he keeps his cards close to his sleeve. He told me the BYO recipe of Everett isn't really the actual recipe. He just tried to steer them in the right direction, and let the author come up with what he thought was the recipe. Shaun also told me that I'd be surprised at how simple Everett's recipe really is. That just always leads me to believe it's all in the process, and being meticulous in the way you do things, and taking great notes to tweak minor things to eventually achieve what you feel is the best you can do.
 
Callacave said:
If you remove all the hype around HF, and just try the beer without any bias, you'll find how incredibly balanced his beers are. Bitterness is right where you want it, hop flavor, aroma, mouthfeel. He just seems to be able to dial in everything perfectly without one thing feeling like it's out of place.

I always find people talking about a beer that finishes with a slightly higher FG as being sweeter, but I don't always find that to be the case. I think it's more to do with mouthfeel. Maybe people's minds are being tricked into thinking thicker is sweeter. Unless you're adding a ton of crystal malt, or something that leaves a residual sweetness in the beer, I think it's possible to have a full and round mouthfeel with plenty of bitterness and flavor.

Shaun's recipes are extremely simple. I tried to ask him about Everett one time, and of course he keeps his cards close to his sleeve. He told me the BYO recipe of Everett isn't really the actual recipe. He just tried to steer them in the right direction, and let the author come up with what he thought was the recipe. Shaun also told me that I'd be surprised at how simple Everett's recipe really is. That just always leads me to believe it's all in the process, and being meticulous in the way you do things, and taking great notes to tweak minor things to eventually achieve what you feel is the best you can do.
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Yes, balance is definitely key and it's something I'm pursing in my own brews as well. I also constantly hear from probrewers (keep it simple!).

I agree with the final gravity and perception of sweetness. If you look at some of deschutes recipes they give you a range in what their FG for each of their beers and I was surprised to see their hoppier beers finishing in the 14-19 FG range. Seems high but it does make sense now that I think of it, as you pointed out that it is resulting in a better mouthfeel than it is sweetness if you keep other factors in check such as crystals.

In fact my recent imperial red ale with 10% crystal ended up finishing 15 FG and there was not the perception of overly sweet or even sweetness for that matter. Just well rounded and balanced beer.

Brewing methodologies are changing dramatically and it's exciting to see/hear and then try at the homebrew level.
 
I'm also starting to think with Shaun's approach to great beer is not just about a great recipe formulation or a complex hop schedule which I think as homebrewers we get so hung up on. Little crystal here, little there, maybe some adjuncts, 3 base malts, step mash temps, yeast ect..

I think he works backwards, I think he envisions what he wants his beer to be starting with his known water profile and then he moves up the chain to recipe, mash, yeast, temps, ect. while keeping it simple through out, rinse and repeat.
 
Callacave said:
Zodiak, I have used it a handful of times. I'm sure you've read that this is possibly the yeast Shaun uses. I have one more IPA that's carbing right now using 1318.

Based on the flavor profile this yeast gives out, I'm starting to doubt that this is what he uses. This last brew I fermented at 64, which is the coolest I've gone with this yeast. I was trying to reduce the ester production, but I'm still getting a familiar flavor coming through that I don't think I get when I drink HF.

I've even tried a much lower sulfate level with an elevated chloride level. I think I went as high as 225ppm for chloride and 100 for sulfate. Unlike what people might say that the hops would be muted because of this elevated level, I didn't experience that. I thought the hops came through well, but just didn't like the flavor I was getting.

That yeast never flocced for me, and i think I got closer to that mouthfeel we're all looking for, but I still don't think I was there. Maybe fermenting with 1318 even lower would help to get a cleaner profile, and a more modest and not so extreme level of minerals, say 100ppm of sulfate and chloride, along with a mash pH around 5.4-5.6 would help to achieve what we're looking for?

I think Shaun is doing other things that we just haven't figured out.
Click to expand...

What kind of "flavor" were you getting when you tried 225ppm Chloride and 100 Sulfate that you didn't care for?
 
Colbizle, this was a tough brew to do this on cause I was using up old hops and grain. I remember it having plenty of bitterness and flavor, but just not what I was looking for. I think it was a bit minerally tasting, but wasn't undrinkable, just different.
 
Callacave said:
Colbizle, this was a tough brew to do this on cause I was using up old hops and grain. I remember it having plenty of bitterness and flavor, but just not what I was looking for. I think it was a bit minerally tasting, but wasn't undrinkable, just different.
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Interesting thanks for the insight. I've noticed in some of my research and specifically using Bru'n Water for my water adjustments, that elevated sulfate levels (150-300+) don't play well when there is elevated chloride levels (above 100). It would be interesting to hear from Martin's or AJ's take on such "extreme" levels of chloride with high sulfate levels and the ramifications. I'm starting to suspect that what shaun is doing is keeping his sulfates low 0-150ppm? and his chloride in the mid range 100-200ppm? so as to get that nice fullness but not harsh minerally taste when both ions are elevated. I don't believe a 1:1 relationship is the answer either.
 

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