Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[Colbizle]

So just got back from our trip to VT to visit family. Grabbed a handful of growlers and bottles from Hill Farmstead, as well as some pints of HF at some local establishments.

I'm not through all of my growlers yet, and will be giving some to friends, but I think we're definitely on the right track flavor/aroma/mouthfeel wise with this discussion. I just poured my Nelson/Simcoe IPA after have a Legitimacy from HF, and the mouthfeel is definitely very similar. HF brews are super cloudy from being saturated with hop oils, and I'm getting the same from my beers.

Like I said previously I will go a little softer on the water profile for my next brew just to see the outcome, but it feels great to be nailing this one, and getting extremely close to what HF is producing!!

Don't be afraid to throw a serious amount of hops after the boil, and steep for a good chunk of time, along with a decent amount of chloride and a lower than you would expect level of sulfate. No need to go above 175. It'll just dry out the beer, and suck out that full/airy/pillowy mouthfeel we're all after.

Wow Callacave that is really awesome to hear. So cool that you got to experience all that and then even do a comparison! I'm so jealous yet grateful that you're willing to share your results. Solid work!

Well that does explain his haze then.., it's not the yeast per se but heavy late additions and dry hop additions. Cool!

 

[Colbizle]

So just got back from our trip to VT to visit family. Grabbed a handful of growlers and bottles from Hill Farmstead, as well as some pints of HF at some local establishments.

I'm not through all of my growlers yet, and will be giving some to friends, but I think we're definitely on the right track flavor/aroma/mouthfeel wise with this discussion. I just poured my Nelson/Simcoe IPA after having a Legitimacy from HF, and the mouthfeel is definitely very similar. HF brews are super cloudy from being saturated with hop oils, and I'm getting the same from my beers.

Like I said previously I will go a little softer on the water profile for my next brew just to see the outcome, but it feels great to be nailing this one, and getting extremely close to what HF is producing!!

Don't be afraid to throw a serious amount of hops after the boil, and steep for a good chunk of time, along with a decent amount of chloride and a lower than you would expect level of sulfate. No need to go above 175. It'll just dry out the beer, and suck out that full/airy/pillowy mouthfeel we're all after.

Also, any thoughts on his house yeast strain?

 

[The_Glue]

So just got back from our trip to VT to visit family. Grabbed a handful of growlers and bottles from Hill Farmstead, as well as some pints of HF at some local establishments.

I'm not through all of my growlers yet, and will be giving some to friends, but I think we're definitely on the right track flavor/aroma/mouthfeel wise with this discussion. I just poured my Nelson/Simcoe IPA after having a Legitimacy from HF, and the mouthfeel is definitely very similar. HF brews are super cloudy from being saturated with hop oils, and I'm getting the same from my beers.

Like I said previously I will go a little softer on the water profile for my next brew just to see the outcome, but it feels great to be nailing this one, and getting extremely close to what HF is producing!!

Don't be afraid to throw a serious amount of hops after the boil, and steep for a good chunk of time, along with a decent amount of chloride and a lower than you would expect level of sulfate. No need to go above 175. It'll just dry out the beer, and suck out that full/airy/pillowy mouthfeel we're all after.

So what did you do in terms of water profile, ph adjusting, malts etc. This thread gets confusing.

 

[Callacave]

Also, any thoughts on his house yeast strain?

I'm pretty convinced it's not 1318. It's something that's more neutral, and doesn't get in the way, or if he's using an English strain it's got to be fermented cool enough to reduce any esters to a minimum. Wonder if it's just a slight variation on Chico? Not sure. On my last beer I used 1056 with some Maine Beer Co dregs thrown in for good measure. I wouldn't hesitate to use whatever strain you like.

The difference in his beers are how dialed in they are to me. Perfect amount of flavor and aroma, the right bitterness for the style. Anybody can throw in a bunch of hops and have flavor up the wazoo, but to me it can be fatiguing on the tongue. His beers make you want to come back for more.

A little off topic, but he didn't have anything dark on tap at the time. I love his Porter, Everett. To me it drinks more like a stout, but is so damn awesome. I also had one of his saison's, Anna on tap. Such a treat. Never had it on tap before because he usually bottles most of it.

 

[Callacave]

So what did you do in terms of water profile, ph adjusting, malts etc. This thread gets confusing.

My last IPA I had a water profile of 175 sulfate and 100 Chloride. I initially thought it was too minerally, but now it's tasting great to me. I think I'm going to go a touch lower on the chloride next time, and the same with sulfate.

Keep the malts simple. Some Pale and a touch of Crystal is fine. My last beer had some flaked barley, so next time I'm going to eliminate it to see how the mouthfeel is affected.

Mash pH was 5.4, with a final pH of 4.4. The final pH can vary depending on yeast strain and any other factor. I didn't adjust the final pH, just got lucky where it ended up.

 

[ejf063]

subscribed.....

 

[Braufessor]

Great info callacave. So, what would you do with hopping at this point? If you were going to brew a beer knowing what you know now, what is your next move?

**Everett is AWESOME by the way..... my favorite porter ever. It has a VERY high finishing gravity 1.030 range I believe.

I have 5 beers at various stages right now where I experimented with water, pH, chloride/sulfate, etc. I am really optimistic after tasting my first two - A citra IPA (only about 5.7%abv) and an Amber ale. All the beers used Conan yeast.

The citra is about 5 days on gas. The amber is going into a keg momentarily.

The main thing I changed in these beers is this:
1.) I did not go 100% RO like I often do. I went about 50-60% carbon filtered tap water..... this gives me a bicarbonate value of 150-180. I used about 2-4ml of lactic acid in the mash and a bit less in the sparge water to bring mash pH into range.
2.) Cut way back on sulfate - all the beers I brewed recently were in the 70-100ppm of sulfate. Chloride I increase up to 70-150 in various batches.

pH's all roughly fell in this range:
*Mash = 5.36-5.42
*Kettle = 5.38-5.46
*Post Boil = 5.25-5.35
*After fermentation= Citra and Amber were both 4.45

In general, with all of them, I put in a single bittering of 1-1.5 ounces of warrior for 60. Then I put in 6-14 ounces of hops at the end. Usually 2-4 at flame out, 3-5 for a long steep/stand under 180 degrees, and 2-3 in dry hop toward the end of primary ferment around day 5-7.

The citra IPA and Amber are both really good - at least to my tastes. They are full bodied, somewhat hazy (not crazy though). No harshness or sharpness to the hop bitterness. More tropical and fruity.

I just brewed a Citra/Galaxy following the above..... but the big difference is I went 70 sulfate and 150 chloride. Kept that bicarbonate up around 150 again. Much cloudier post boil than any of my normal beers.... (high chloride= cloudiness????) Really looking forward to seeing how the next ones come out (Heady clone, Citra/Simcoe/Columbus APA, and this citra/galaxy.) Gonna do one more in this realm (Citra/Mosaic) before evaluating my next move.

 

[Callacave]

Great info callacave. So, what would you do with hopping at this point? If you were going to brew a beer knowing what you know now, what is your next move?

**Everett is AWESOME by the way..... my favorite porter ever. It has a VERY high finishing gravity 1.030 range I believe.

I have 5 beers at various stages right now where I experimented with water, pH, chloride/sulfate, etc. I am really optimistic after tasting my first two - A citra IPA (only about 5.7%abv) and an Amber ale. All the beers used Conan yeast.

The citra is about 5 days on gas. The amber is going into a keg momentarily.

The main thing I changed in these beers is this:
1.) I did not go 100% RO like I often do. I went about 50-60% carbon filtered tap water..... this gives me a bicarbonate value of 150-180. I used about 2-4ml of lactic acid in the mash and a bit less in the sparge water to bring mash pH into range.
2.) Cut way back on sulfate - all the beers I brewed recently were in the 70-100ppm of sulfate. Chloride I increase up to 70-150 in various batches.

pH's all roughly fell in this range:
*Mash = 5.36-5.42
*Kettle = 5.38-5.46
*Post Boil = 5.25-5.35
*After fermentation= Citra and Amber were both 4.45

In general, with all of them, I put in a single bittering of 1-1.5 ounces of warrior for 60. Then I put in 6-14 ounces of hops at the end. Usually 2-4 at flame out, 3-5 for a long steep/stand under 180 degrees, and 2-3 in dry hop toward the end of primary ferment around day 5-7.

The citra IPA and Amber are both really good - at least to my tastes. They are full bodied, somewhat hazy (not crazy though). No harshness or sharpness to the hop bitterness. More tropical and fruity.

I just brewed a Citra/Galaxy following the above..... but the big difference is I went 70 sulfate and 150 chloride. Kept that bicarbonate up around 150 again. Much cloudier post boil than any of my normal beers.... (high chloride= cloudiness????) Really looking forward to seeing how the next ones come out (Heady clone, Citra/Simcoe/Columbus APA, and this citra/galaxy.) Gonna do one more in this realm (Citra/Mosaic) before evaluating my next move.

I think you're right on track with your hop additions Braufessor. Sounds like you're making some killer hoppy ales. For my last two brews I've been bittering with Hopshots at 60, and tossing in 8 oz at 140F for 30 min, holding the temp there the whole time. My next move is probably going to be steeping at 170F, and/or flameout and 170F. Maybe I'll just split a batch and try both.

I did do just a flameout addition a few brews ago, and let it sit covered for 30 min. To me it produced a more cleaner hop flavor for lack of a better term? Not the super cloudy, juicy ones I have from a 140F steep. I think I also used less hops, so I'm sure that's contributing. I think it's so much fun to try different steeping temps. You can coax different flavors from the same hops just by changing the temp.

I see that you use lactic for pH adjustments. I know from this forum it isn't the most most neutral flavor out of all of the options. I started out with lactic, but now use phosphoric because it's the most neutral tasting. Not that it would make any noticeable difference to your beers, but might be a worthwhile tweak?

 

[The_Glue]

My last IPA I had a water profile of 175 sulfate and 100 Chloride. I initially thought it was too minerally, but now it's tasting great to me. I think I'm going to go a touch lower on the chloride next time, and the same with sulfate.

Keep the malts simple. Some Pale and a touch of Crystal is fine. My last beer had some flaked barley, so next time I'm going to eliminate it to see how the mouthfeel is affected.

Mash pH was 5.4, with a final pH of 4.4. The final pH can vary depending on yeast strain and any other factor. I didn't adjust the final pH, just got lucky where it ended up.

Thanks! What is your boil off rate? Mine is around 33% so if i would start with 175/100 sulfate/chloride brewing water i would end up around 240/150 in the fermenter (post boil)

 

[Callacave]

Thanks! What is your boil off rate? Mine is around 33% so if i would start with 175/100 sulfate/chloride brewing water i would end up around 240/150 in the fermenter (post boil)

I use Bru'n Water for my mineral additions. It will calculate the amount to add based off your batch volume.

I try to keep my boil off rate around 1gal/hr

 

[Braufessor]

I see that you use lactic for pH adjustments. I know from this forum it isn't the most most neutral flavor out of all of the options. I started out with lactic, but now use phosphoric because it's the most neutral tasting. Not that it would make any noticeable difference to your beers, but might be a worthwhile tweak?

I suppose the main reason I use it is that I typically use very little...... 1.5-3ml maybe in 5 gallons of mash water and less in the sparge water. I am collecting 8 gallons preboil, and finishing with 6.5 gallons. So, it is just easy to use. I do have some 10% phospohoric sitting there too.... but that just takes so much. So, for the most part it is just habit, and the fact that I am generally using much less than the often cited upper limit of 1ml/gallon. Maybe when I get some other things dialed in I will do two side by side with the different acids to see if I can detect any difference.

 

[Callacave]

I suppose the main reason I use it is that I typically use very little...... 1.5-3ml maybe in 5 gallons of mash water and less in the sparge water. I am collecting 8 gallons preboil, and finishing with 6.5 gallons. So, it is just easy to use. I do have some 10% phospohoric sitting there too.... but that just takes so much. So, for the most part it is just habit, and the fact that I am generally using much less than the often cited upper limit of 1ml/gallon. Maybe when I get some other things dialed in I will do two side by side with the different acids to see if I can detect any difference.

Yup...I'm sure no one could tell a difference. Just something I happened to notice that was different from what I'm using. I use 85% Phosphoric, but in the end I'm sure it makes no difference since I'm assuming the 10% is just diluted down with water, but who knows...

 

[Colbizle]

Thanks! What is your boil off rate? Mine is around 33% so if i would start with 175/100 sulfate/chloride brewing water i would end up around 240/150 in the fermenter (post boil)

As Callacave had mention use a water spreedsheet for your water additions. Bru'un water is an amazing tool.

With that said, boiling down wort will not concentration your ions. They are dissolved in the wort, so they too will be boiled off with it.

 

[Colbizle]

Yup...I'm sure no one could tell a difference. Just something I happened to notice that was different from what I'm using. I use 85% Phosphoric, but in the end I'm sure it makes no difference since I'm assuming the 10% is just diluted down with water, but who knows...

My LHBS only carries 10%, I'm always like Whoa when I realize how much I have to use. Lactic acid is more potent so you use way less. I think 10% exists is so people don't accidentally use to much haha..

 

[BeatnikTom]

This discussion has me doing a few mouthfeel experiments as well.

Nothing as amazing and well documented as some other posters, but I can confirm one thing that's been discussed.

Yeast.

I brew a Dry Irish Stout regularly. I struggle with the mouthfeel, that's why and how I found this thread. I paid more attention to the PH, using a meter to fine-tune the PH which was dropping farther than I thought from the dark grains. This improved the flavor and I think helped with "mouthfeel" perception because it rounds out the beer, it's "softer" now.

Then I brewed it the same way but with Denny's Favorite 1450 from Wyeast and the mouthfeel improved considerably. It's neutral (yeast characteristics) but very creamy.

Secondly, I recently brewed a Evil Dead/Evil Twin clone. Jamil's recipe. I've brewed it a few times before but this time,the finishing hops stood a few minutes too long before my whirlpool started, so it was more bitter than usual because it's all late hopped (aka hop bursted). Then I dry hopped the hell out of it. Used US-05 for it.

Guess what? Hazy as **** but one of the most amazing mouthfeels in any beer I've ever brewed and significantly more mouthfeel than previous batches of the same beer.

You guys are on to something.

 

[Indian_villager]

With that said, boiling down wort will not concentration your ions. They are dissolved in the wort, so they too will be boiled off with it.

This is completely inaccurate. Boiling is a phase change of the water that leaves most of the ions behind. Once water is in the gas phase it will not be able to dissociate the salts effectively to carry a good amount.

If you have a vigorous enough boil that can entrain some mist however you will be better at carrying out some ions, but at the end of the day the concentration of ions in the pot will still increase, just not in as linear of a fashion.

 

[Colbizle]

This is completely inaccurate. Boiling is a phase change of the water that leaves most of the ions behind. Once water is in the gas phase it will not be able to dissociate the salts effectively to carry a good amount.

If you have a vigorous enough boil that can entrain some mist however you will be better at carrying out some ions, but at the end of the day the concentration of ions in the pot will still increase, just not in as linear of a fashion.

Ah, I am indeed foolishly wrong! Thank you for correcting me. More info from Martin on the subject:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=509001

I guess, I just assumed that this is part of the overall ion calculations and concentration should not be an issue or a concern in the final product.

 

[mosaicbrewer]

Edward finished beer sulfate is 250. magnesium is quite high. Think CL is higher or lower?
Why is everyone using oats and stuff? His ingredients are listed on his page! Say someone with a wheat only type allergy read his page and consumed his beer. That may be a problem if he uses wheat or non GF oats and someone has a bad reaction.
He outlines so much about his beer, and the gravities are on point for 1318 and many medium attenuating yeasts.
Rahr has been said to be one of his base malts.
Lots of good chatter on this thread.
How many ounces per gallon do you all think? When you say he uses extract, sure maybe, but I doubt it's in his single hops, unless he is getting citra extract galaxy extract etc...

 

[Colbizle]

Edward finished beer sulfate is 250. magnesium is quite high. Think CL is higher or lower?
Why is everyone using oats and stuff? His ingredients are listed on his page! Say someone with a wheat only type allergy read his page and consumed his beer. That may be a problem if he uses wheat or non GF oats and someone has a bad reaction.
He outlines so much about his beer, and the gravities are on point for 1318 and many medium attenuating yeasts.
Rahr has been said to be one of his base malts.
Lots of good chatter on this thread.
How many ounces per gallon do you all think? When you say he uses extract, sure maybe, but I doubt it's in his single hops, unless he is getting citra extract galaxy extract etc...

"Edward finished beer sulfate is 250. magnesium is quite high. Think CL is higher or lower?"
I'm curious in how you know that/got that information.

With that said, if you look back a few pages (I know this thread is getting lengthy) a few of us have tried SO4/CL with varying results. I recently made two brews at 175:100 and found it too minerally.


Why is everyone using oats and stuff?
Maybe in an attempt to get close, but I agree, it's not the answer.

His gravities are on point for 1318
Agreed, he's def using a strain like 1318 or conan or something along those lines. Callacave went to HF just recently and he mentioned he didn't pick up the esters that those strains typically throw even when fermented cooler. So it's still a mystery until someone cultures some and does a side by side. Maybe Callacave will hop in here and give some insight.

Rahr has been said to be one of his base malts.
He does in fact use rahr proof. I like rahr malting, shakopee is only 15 minutes from my house.

Welcome to the discussion! Cheers.

 

[BeatnikTom]

He does in fact use rahr proof.

I love the kiddie pool lid!

 

[mosaicbrewer]

Also, forgot to mention, I have been using a lot of 1318 in my attempts to make a beer in the HF style. I have been pushing the top end of the temp range even bumping right up at 74 and am getting no major esters and certainty nothing undesirable. I would still call it clean even. I wonder if fermenting it that low is pushing out more esters as some strains tend to?

 

[Callacave]

"Edward finished beer sulfate is 250. magnesium is quite high. Think CL is higher or lower?"
I'm curious in how you know that/got that information.

With that said, if you look back a few pages (I know this thread is getting lengthy) a few of us have tried SO4/CL with varying results. I recently made two brews at 175:100 and found it too minerally.

I remember in a few posts where Martin talked about how malt also contributes a lot of minerals to the beer. 250 sulfate seems pretty low to me in the finished beer. I think I remember somewhere on these boards where someone tested Heady Topper, and it was around 468? It's impossible to know how much a brewer has added by testing the finished beer, but if this 250 number is true, it's at least some good info.

I found it. Here's a sample of what Martin posted in the Heady Topper thread where we can see typical ranges from what barley can contribute with respect to inorganic components....

"Table 22.2 from Malting and Brewing Science reports the following inorganic components in beer.

K: 220 to 1100 ppm
Na: 9 to 230 ppm
Mg: 34 to 250 ppm
Ca: 10 to 140 ppm
Fe: 0.02 to 0.84 ppm
Cl: 143 to 984 ppm
SO4: 107 to 400 ppm

There are more listed, but I'm tired of typing. The ranges cover a lot of styles and countries of origin, but this does give you an indication of many ions that malt contributes. In the case of Mg, malt supplies about 1 g Mg per kg of grain. Ca is supplied at the rate of about 0.3 g per kg of grain. If all that content makes it into the wort, that equates to about 60 ppm Ca and 150 ppm Mg.

As you can see, malt is a big contributor of necessary ions for yeast growth and health. Adding those ions to water is NOT necessary for the yeast. But we do like to add them for more flavor in our beer!

The other question that is answered here is that chloride is indeed supplied by malt. So the result shown above is a reasonable representation of a beer."

Why is everyone using oats and stuff?
Maybe in an attempt to get close, but I agree, it's not the answer.

I also agree, and my next brew will be without. We're just assuming that Shaun is being honest with what is reported on his website, but maybe there are some things being omitted? For now I'm trusting what's reported on the website.

His gravities are on point for 1318
Agreed, he's def using a strain like 1318 or conan or something along those lines. Callacave went to HF just recently and he mentioned he didn't pick up the esters that those strains typically throw even when fermented cooler. So it's still a mystery until someone cultures some and does a side by side. Maybe Callacave will hop in here and give some insight.

Gravity does seem to be in line with an English strain, but attenuation can also be manipulated by other factors. From having multiple different beers from Hill over the past weekend I just can't detect the 1318 esters. My palette definitely isn't the best, and I'm sure hops cover up a bunch too.

One of my last beers with 1318 that I fermented cool still had that familiar ester. It did seem to fade, or blend in after some time in the keezer, or maybe my taste buds just got used to it after having it multiple times on tap.

I saw that Shaun is using bunging valves on his fermenters now. I don't remember this being mentioned before, and this could be something new to his brewhouse expansion. This tells me he's fermenting under slight pressure, and possibly carbing in the fermenters. Fermenting under pressure can reduce esters, so maybe 1318 isn't out of the question?

 

[The_Glue]

K: 220 to 1100 ppm
Na: 9 to 230 ppm
Mg: 34 to 250 ppm
Ca: 10 to 140 ppm
Fe: 0.02 to 0.84 ppm
Cl: 143 to 984 ppm
SO4: 107 to 400 ppm

I find this hard to believe. Wouldn't the mash phs be all over the place if malts can have this much variety? How can be a difference between RO water and a "regular" tap water brew (in terms of taste) if malts contain 10x much of everything anyways. I think all mash ph calculators depend only on the malt's color/roast level to calculate ph. But for example a variance of ~800ppm in Cl must cause a huge variance in ph too.

 

[Colbizle]

I'm still curious in where mosaicbrewer came up with the 250 sulfate information.

 

[Braufessor]

I find this hard to believe. Wouldn't the mash phs be all over the place if malts can have this much variety? How can be a difference between RO water and a "regular" tap water brew (in terms of taste) if malts contain 10x much of everything anyways. I think all mash ph calculators depend only on the malt's color/roast level to calculate ph. But for example a variance of ~800ppm in Cl must cause a huge variance in ph too.

That would be a good question for the brew science forum..... but, I don't think it just depends on the "color." I think Bru'n water and maybe other calculators factor in what a set amt. of grain does to a set amt. of water in terms of pH. Way over my head for sure. But, I know 2 things:

1.) There is a very large contribution of various ions from the grain into the final beer.

2.) By whatever magic, B'run water still pretty much nails it every time.

If a finished HF beer only has 250ppm sulfate .... then much less was added to the mash than 250. Now, if there is a different source that is just saying 250 is added to the mash, I would be curious about that source of information as well.
My personal experience thus far has been that 175+ on sulfate sends a beer toward "crisp" and "sharp" in its expression of hops. Could be more at play.....I don't pretend to be HF that is for sure. But, when I have played with water, that is what happens. When I put sulfate under 100 and bump chloride up to 75+...... I get a "softer" beer.

 

[kaz4121]

Edward finished beer sulfate is 250. magnesium is quite high. Think CL is higher or lower?
Why is everyone using oats and stuff? His ingredients are listed on his page! Say someone with a wheat only type allergy read his page and consumed his beer. That may be a problem if he uses wheat or non GF oats and someone has a bad reaction.
He outlines so much about his beer, and the gravities are on point for 1318 and many medium attenuating yeasts.
Rahr has been said to be one of his base malts.
Lots of good chatter on this thread.
How many ounces per gallon do you all think? When you say he uses extract, sure maybe, but I doubt it's in his single hops, unless he is getting citra extract galaxy extract etc...

I know adjuncts aren't claimed to be used in the HF recipes, but if we cannot replicate the mouthfeel with yeast selection and technique, it may be a good "workaround" to achieve a similar mouthfeel.

Obviously Shaun is a world class brewer, so I doubt we will ever be able to replicate his technique, but I started this thread as a means to achieve a similar mouthfeel to his beers, not necessarily mimic his exact process (although it would be nice!)

 

[Colbizle]

I know adjuncts aren't claimed to be used in the HF recipes, but if we cannot replicate the mouthfeel with yeast selection and technique, it may be a good "workaround" to achieve a similar mouthfeel.

Obviously Shaun is a world class brewer, so I doubt we will ever be able to replicate his technique, but I started this thread as a means to achieve a similar mouthfeel to his beers, not necessarily mimic his exact process (although it would be nice!)

Obviously Shaun is a world class brewer, so I doubt we will ever be able to replicate his technique, but I started this thread as a means to achieve a similar mouthfeel to his beers, not necessarily mimic his exact process

THIS! ^

I'm currently in the realm of experimenting and what works for me and my palate. I've never even had a HF beer! But I am intrigued by attempting to achieve a "similar" mouthfeel in my own brews. I'm not trying to clone HF... cloning to me is not as fun as creating your own art and sharing it with the world. That's what gets me going. But hey, everyone's different and that's why we brew!

 

[Colbizle]

That would be a good question for the brew science forum..... but, I don't think it just depends on the "color." I think Bru'n water and maybe other calculators factor in what a set amt. of grain does to a set amt. of water in terms of pH. Way over my head for sure. But, I know 2 things:

1.) There is a very large contribution of various ions from the grain into the final beer.

2.) By whatever magic, B'run water still pretty much nails it every time.

If a finished HF beer only has 250ppm sulfate .... then much less was added to the mash than 250. Now, if there is a different source that is just saying 250 is added to the mash, I would be curious about that source of information as well.
My personal experience thus far has been that 175+ on sulfate sends a beer toward "crisp" and "sharp" in its expression of hops. Could be more at play.....I don't pretend to be HF that is for sure. But, when I have played with water, that is what happens. When I put sulfate under 100 and bump chloride up to 75+...... I get a "softer" beer.

Until we actually have more info on where this claim of 250 ppm sulfate came from I don't think we should continue to acknowledge it as helpful info.

 

[mosaicbrewer]

Until we actually have more info on where this claim of 250 ppm sulfate came from I don't think we should continue to acknowledge it as helpful info.

it came from ward labs test results. test done in April of 14.

S04-S= 82/246
CaC03=843

 

[Callacave]

it came from ward labs test results. test done in April of 14.

S04-S= 82/246
CaC03=843

Then it pretty much confirms what we've all been thinking. Low sulfate with higher chloride. This is good info.

By any chance do you know which beer it is? Edward is my guess?