Creamy/pillow IPA mouthfeel?

[Rzlblrt417]

So I am a huge fan of the northeast style IPAs and have been brewing a few of them with some good results. I just had the pleasure of tasting Juice Machine from Treehouse brewing and fell immediately in love with the mouthfeel of this beer. It was creamy, juicy, and have heard it described as pillowy. I also felt something similar in Tired Hands Milkshake IPA series, my favorite being their Mango Milkshake IPA. I have attempted to do this in recipes of my own by using oats, wheat and even a little lactose sugar as well as adding sodium chloride to the water for better hop retention but still can't come close to these beers.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to achieve this style? There has to be something else that I am missing

Thanks in advance!

 

[splyn]

Denny Favorite? I just used that on an IPA and it created a smoother mouth feel.

 

[cegan09]

I am far from an expert, but there are a few things that can help. I think the biggest is water chemistry. All the ones that I've made have been with a 2:1 Chloride to sulfate. This based on the recommendations of others. Using a bunch of flaked grains will also help. Yeast probably plays a bit of a role as well.

I do also suspect carbonation will change this too. Some of my Northeast IPAs have been almost 100% spot on in terms of mouthfeel to the likes of tree house when I try them early before they're fully carb'd. Once they finish the feel changes a little.

Again, not an expert, just some speculation. Others have a lot more concrete knowledge than me.

 

[Rzlblrt417]

I am far from an expert, but there are a few things that can help. I think the biggest is water chemistry. All the ones that I've made have been with a 2:1 Chloride to sulfate. This based on the recommendations of others. Using a bunch of flaked grains will also help. Yeast probably plays a bit of a role as well.

I do also suspect carbonation will change this too. Some of my Northeast IPAs have been almost 100% spot on in terms of mouthfeel to the likes of tree house when I try them early before they're fully carb'd. Once they finish the feel changes a little.

Again, not an expert, just some speculation. Others have a lot more concrete knowledge than me.

This is some great advice, thank you.

How do you achieve a 2:1 chloride to sulfate? I was thinking of using gypsum, about 1.5 tsp per 5 gal, would that work?

Also I was able to revive some treehouse yeast from the dregs of a juice dream so hopefully that will help a bit

 

[cegan09]

This is some great advice, thank you.

How do you achieve a 2:1 chloride to sulfate? I was thinking of using gypsum, about 1.5 tsp per 5 gal, would that work?

Also I was able to revive some treehouse yeast from the dregs of a juice dream so hopefully that will help a bit

I use Brunwater to setup my water because i'm incapable of doing anything simply. BeerSmith has a water tool too, that's a bit easier to use. Basically I use Gypsum (Sulfate and Calcium), Calcium Chloride (Chloride and calcium), and small amounts of Epsom Salt (Sulfate and magnesium) to build from distilled water. You don't need distilled water, you can use your tap if you know it's contents.

I've been aiming for the following ppm concentrations:
Ca: 96
Sulfate: 67
Chloride: 128


Most of this I've learned reading Braufessor's thread. There is a ton of info in there.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

 

[Rzlblrt417]

I use Brunwater to setup my water because i'm incapable of doing anything simply. BeerSmith has a water tool too, that's a bit easier to use. Basically I use Gypsum (Sulfate and Calcium), Calcium Chloride (Chloride and calcium), and small amounts of Epsom Salt (Sulfate and magnesium) to build from distilled water. You don't need distilled water, you can use your tap if you know it's contents.

I've been aiming for the following ppm concentrations:
Ca: 96
Sulfate: 67
Chloride: 128


Most of this I've learned reading Braufessor's thread. There is a ton of info in there.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

Awesome, thank you so much. I just sent out a sample so i know what base I am starting with and ill be using those tools to work from there. Hopefully I find what im looking for!

 

[elburrogrande]

I notice a lot of them use dextrin as well

 

[hezagenius]

What yeasts have you tried?

What is your OG and FG?

I added 0.5# lactose and 0.5# maltodextrin in my last NEIPA and it definitely adds some mouthfeel to it. I use 1318 and normally finish around 1.011. By adding those, my FG was about 1.014 and the difference was noticeable. I may back off the lactose next time because it almost seemed like the sweetness covered up some of the hop flavor.

Like the others have said, your water will probably have the most impact on your perceived mouthfeel. I stopped messing around with my local water and started using distilled/purified. Then build up the profile from there.

 

[Rzlblrt417]

I notice a lot of them use dextrin as well

I pretty much always use dextrin in my IPAs. Since I usually use a lower carbination and sometimes have oily adjuncts it really helps with the head retention

What yeasts have you tried?

What is your OG and FG?

I added 0.5# lactose and 0.5# maltodextrin in my last NEIPA and it definitely adds some mouthfeel to it. I use 1318 and normally finish around 1.011. By adding those, my FG was about 1.014 and the difference was noticeable. I may back off the lactose next time because it almost seemed like the sweetness covered up some of the hop flavor.

Like the others have said, your water will probably have the most impact on your perceived mouthfeel. I stopped messing around with my local water and started using distilled/purified. Then build up the profile from there.

My OG is usually between 1.06 and 1.08 if i am doing a double and my FG is never above 1.014. I used to use 1318 for everything but for my last two brews which i haven't tasted yet i used some yeast that recovered from Trillium and Treehouse to see if that makes any kind of difference. I use lactose in my milkshake IPA but i find that it adds too much sweetness to my regular IPAs.

Since you are the second person to suggest distilled water I have to ask what is the cost difference using distilled? I am doing my brewing on a smaller budget since I am in my low 20s. Do you just leave the super market with like 16 gallons of distilled water?

 

[cegan09]

Since you are the second person to suggest distilled water I have to ask what is the cost difference using distilled? I am doing my brewing on a smaller budget since I am in my low 20s. Do you just leave the super market with like 16 gallons of distilled water?

Depends what's around you. I just buy gallons of distilled from the supermarket for now, it's about $1/gallon and I need about 9gallons to make 5 gallons of beer.

If you have a place that sells RO water it's cheaper. Just show up with 5 gallon containers and fill them. Depends on your region where you can find these. Places like walmart, whole foods, etc, check there.


you don't need RO or DI water, but you do need to know what is in your water so you can adjust it to what you want.

 

[socounty]

I think the mouth feel your talking about it is something other than water chemistry or hops. After trying to come up with my own version of this beer I found a few blog post, interviews etc.... that the culprit is pectin. Here is a link to something that might lead you on the right path.
http://www.beerpriority.com/omnipollo-tired-hands/

 

[specharka]

It's probably been said already, but this creamy mouthfeel is a combination of factors:
1) high chloride content (~120 ppm), modest sulfate (~80 ppm)
2) use of flaked grains on the order of 10-20% of the total grainbill
3) selection of a low flocculating yeast such as WY1318, WY1098, or Conan (FYI, Tree House uses WY1318)
4) no finings or filtration
5) massive dry hop charge as soon as fermentation activity tapers off. Do not wait for the beer to attenuate before you dry hop.

 

[lilbova3]

It's probably been said already, but this creamy mouthfeel is a combination of factors:
1) high chloride content (~120 ppm), modest sulfate (~80 ppm)
2) use of flaked grains on the order of 10-20% of the total grainbill
3) selection of a low flocculating yeast such as WY1318, WY1098, or Conan (FYI, Tree House uses WY1318)
4) no finings or filtration
5) massive dry hop charge as soon as fermentation activity tapers off. Do not wait for the beer to attenuate before you dry hop.

I agree with all of this.

I will add I use 20% or more for flaked, it really helps. I use even less sulfate, 50 or lower. I have also found mashing high helps with the mouthfeel and leaves some of the perceived sweetness that works so well with this beer. I mash at 156*.

You can confirm Tree House uses 1318?

 

[socounty]

If we're talking about a nice New England IPA then yes I would agree with above but I believe OP wanted to know about the double milkshake IPA whatever the flavor. With out adding fruit and lactose to the boil you will not achieve the mouthfeel your talking about. Not including the fruit and vanilla added in secondary along with hops. Grain is debatably as far as the flaked wheat vs wheat flour. Link above points to all of this and with a little searching you can find some more info on this particular beer.