Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[Colbizle]

Brewed an IPA with 1318 this weekend did 175 Sulfate : 100 Chloride just like Callacave. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Paradigm]

It's simple. They're wizards over there. I need to go again.

 

[m00ps]

@Braufessor - 1.5 hr hopstand....now THAT is a real 90min IPA

 

[Braufessor]

@Braufessor - 1.5 hr hopstand....now THAT is a real 90min IPA

The first 30-45 minutes of the hopstand is from 175 degrees and just cooling down on its own...... to????? 140 maybe?

I then use immersion chiller for about 15 minutes to get it to 60 degrees.

Then I generally just let the kettle sit for another 30 minutes so the large amount of hop material can settle out and I don't transfer very much of it into the fermenter via the spigot in my kettle.

I usually go clean up anything still out from brewday, or just go get other stuff done during this time.

I have basically not been dry hopping any of my recent beers and they have been among some of the best hoppy beers I have ever brewed.

 

[m00ps]

yeah i've slowly shifted all my hops from dry hopping and 15,20,10 min additions to massive hopstands. I feel like you get the most you can out of the hops and makes for mouth watering IPAs that are too drinkable

 

[Barley_Bob]

I realizing I'm helping push this off topic, but I've found that, while a hopstand causes a big improvement in aroma, it does a lot less for the flavor of the beer. I've maybe dialed my hopstands back slightly, but I've definitely been pushing my late (5-15minute) additions back up from their lowest point. I'm even playing with 30 minute additions. And I'm liking the results. One man's opinion.

I'm drinking a Belgian APA of mine right now (whatever you want to call it). Almost all pilsner with a pound of rye. The Belgian yeast ate the hell out of it, but it still has surprisingly good body for being as light as it is. I still would go back and add some crystal, but everything else we're talking about really saved it. I'm sure it would be really thin with a different water profile, without the rye, and at a different carbonation level. This stuff works.

 

[Callacave]

I was reading somewhere that an 80 min hopstand compared to a 50 that was done as a trial actually made a difference in flavor, although slightly more. So, Braufessor is right on with that 90 min stand. For my latest I did a 30 min stand at 140F. Next I might try a flameout addition, then another when it hits 170F.

 

[irishrover32]

The first 30-45 minutes of the hopstand is from 175 degrees and just cooling down on its own...... to????? 140 maybe?

I then use immersion chiller for about 15 minutes to get it to 60 degrees.

Then I generally just let the kettle sit for another 30 minutes so the large amount of hop material can settle out and I don't transfer very much of it into the fermenter via the spigot in my kettle.

I usually go clean up anything still out from brewday, or just go get other stuff done during this time.

I have basically not been dry hopping any of my recent beers and they have been among some of the best hoppy beers I have ever brewed.

have you noticed any adverse effects from letting your wort sit for 30 minutes to settle out, i really like the idea of letting everything settle out but iv always got that voice in my head saying pitch fast so the yeast takes hold instead of bacteria

 

[Riot]

As long as your sanitation is solid you don't have a lot to worry about. I let my batches sit for a couple hours to overnight when my chiller doesn't take the temp down as far as I want and just let my ferment freezer bring the batch to where it needs to be for my yeast.

 

[Braufessor]

have you noticed any adverse effects from letting your wort sit for 30 minutes to settle out, i really like the idea of letting everything settle out but iv always got that voice in my head saying pitch fast so the yeast takes hold instead of bacteria

The primary adverse affect I have noticed is my kegs are only lasting about 1-2 weeks due to excessive hoppy goodness

But, seriously - I have had no issues in that regard. That said:
* I brew in my basement - which is pretty clean and I am not battling "the elements."
*The lid is on - so the odds of much getting in there is slim.
*I am pretty anal about sanitation all the way around.
*I pitch actively fermenting, healthy starters and usually am seeing bubbles in my airlock within a few hours of pitching.

I am sure if someone were to leave an uncovered pot, at 60 degrees, in their garage or outside for 40 minutes and then pitch a single 3 month old smack pack..... they would likely have some issues.

*I am also "ok" with leaving close to a gallon of wort behind in my kettle. I brew 6-6.5 gallon batches, knowing that I will lose some in my kettle and some more in my fermenter.... eventually getting a full 5 gallons into a keg.

 

[BeatnikTom]

Attenuation and mouth feel do not have a 1:1 relationship.

See the French Saison strains for an extreme example; there are few saccharomyces strains that have higher attenuation and will dry out a beer more but beers made with this yeast strain still have a nice creamy mouthfeel from the yeast's production of glycerol.

Attenuation / Final Gravity is only one factor.


A great article from the Journal of the UK-based Institute of Brewing and Distilling that goes into the physical and chemical parameters which may contribute to beer mouth feel: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1993.tb01143.x/pdf


It's interesting that that article mentions that high molecular weight proteins and specifically the colloids formed from them are highly important for beer "mellowness" and "palate fullness". -The most famous such colloid would be chill haze; something that may certainly be present in Hill Farmstead beers given their cloudiness and huge hopping levels.

-US 2 row malts have much higher protein levels -as protein conversion continues in the mashtun we see large proteins break down into peptides and eventually amino acids. Doing a high temp single infusion mash with typical high DP US 2 row -and doing a shorter than normal mash would both keep more less fermentable staches around (Dextrins) AND more of these larger proteins around -we know that thinks like Flaked barley, which has been mentioned on this thread quite a few times now will also introduce more protein. Having a lot of these large molecular weight proteins AND dextrins AND then chill haze colloids that form by having those large molecular weight proteins in solution in the presence of large amounts of hop-derived polyphenols WOULD result in lots of protein/tannins colloids being formed.

-De Clerck and Narziss both agree that higher protein malt will increase the amount of high molecular weight proteins in the finished beer so I find it super interesting that combining crazy american high hop levels along with our high protein / enzyme malt (which europe considers inferior for brewing and I'd generally agree for all malt beers, especially strong ones), would be uniquely well-suited to creating these very silky / pillowy yet extremely hoppy beers. -If anything should be an American beer specialty, this is it.


On the subject of Beta Glucans / Oats, the article seems to agree with another poster that felt that flaked barley helped out much more. Beta Glucans certainly add to the viscosity but seemed to have only a mild coorelation to "sensory viscosity"; personally I definitely find an improvement, but a trained sensory panel is hard to agree with; I get the feeling that they're making pretty detailed distinctions.


Adam

My .02 cents:

As the OP pointed out, it's not just one thing. I think everyone is rightfully focused on water profile/PH and secondarily on yeast strain.

But don't forget about protein composition. I'd be willing to bet this brewer is *also* doing some form of protein step to get this mouthfeel. (I haven't had the pleasure of drinking his beer.)

What temp? How long? More than one? Well, that's another experiment isn't it? (NOT volunteering.)

-TK

 

[Colbizle]

My .02 cents:

As the OP pointed out, it's not just one thing. I think everyone is rightfully focused on water profile/PH and secondarily on yeast strain.

But don't forget about protein composition. I'd be willing to bet this brewer is *also* doing some form of protein step to get this mouthfeel. (I haven't had the pleasure of drinking his beer.)

What temp? How long? More than one? Well, that's another experiment isn't it? (NOT volunteering.)

-TK

I keep reading that multi-step mashes are a bunch of hooey with todays well modified malts. I've even read on the probrewer forums that majority don't bother and single infusion all the way. I don't think he's doing multi-step mashes but again that's just what I think and I could be completely wrong.

 

[BeatnikTom]

Don't let the Germans hear you say that.

I think "bunch of hooey" isn't exactly accurate. Unnecessary for 99% of your brews is probably the best way to characterize it. But we're talking about ways to achieve a specific result and we know proteins are very involved.

He could also be simply getting a specific type of base grain that has the protein content he's looking for without a rest.

 

[GotPushrods]

This thread is intriguing, just read through it.

I saw a few mentions of 1450... but for those of you haven't tried it and are just putting it in the list of possibilities...

TRY IT!

It's hard to describe how much different a yeast can make. Every bit as much and probably more than many other factors.

Imagine you have a nice stout. Then you harvest dozens of silk butterfly cocoons. And maybe some pieces of a cashmere sweater. Now if you could somehow dissolve this into a beer, you'd see the shocking difference yeast can have on mouthfeel.

It really is impressive and I'd recommend you try the 1450 as part of any experiment here.

 

[Braufessor]

This thread is intriguing, just read through it.

I saw a few mentions of 1450... but for those of you haven't tried it and are just putting it in the list of possibilities...

TRY IT!

It's hard to describe how much different a yeast can make. Every bit as much and probably more than many other factors.

Imagine you have a nice stout. Then you harvest dozens of silk butterfly cocoons. And maybe some pieces of a cashmere sweater. Now if you could somehow dissolve this into a beer, you'd see the shocking difference yeast can have on mouthfeel.

It really is impressive and I'd recommend you try the 1450 as part of any experiment here.

Ha - nice description. I have used 1450 in a couple amber ales and I agree. It really does produce a great mouthfeel. Anxious to try my latest (and first actual pale ale) using this yeast. about a week before kegging.

 

[drunkmonk59]

Fantastic thread. Subscribed.

 

[irishrover32]

im no expert here but im just gonna throw a few things out there iv been researching hoping thewy can be debunked or ran with

iv really been captivated by this topic, iv never had a HF beer but i remember drinking a beer called armegeddon IPA by epic brewing company in New Zealand, when i first drank this beer i was amazed by the light fluffy airy mouthfeel which wat sparked my interest in this thread. i remember listening to a CYBI episode about epic's pale ale so i had a listen to it again the other day and he mentioned they have really soft water at their brewery, its rainwater from a resevoir. he mentioned they dont do much to it just up the chloride which i found very interesting as we know shaun likes his chloride so im going to throw caution to the wind and assume epic are using the same profile for their pale ale as their IPA, he also mentioned they use a really light crystal malt and theirs only two malts mentioned on their website for their ipa. im gonna assume soft water is calcium below 50ppm so if he's adding "a small bit of chloride" he could have a chloride/sulfate ratio of something like 70ppm/50ppm would this be unrealistic??

i also had a listen to some water podcasts and noted it was mentioned that high alkalinity can increase mouthfeel, could shaun be upping alkalinity and then balancing his mash PH with acid

i also listend to the brew strong episode about mouthfeel and jamil mentioned pliny has a good mouth feel despite finishing low (1.009ish) he credited this to the resins from the hops which is interesting especially when i heard shaun say on an online Q and A when asked about the cloudyness from yeast he replied its not yeast its hops, so maybe the speculation about poor floccing yeast strains is unrelaible

for my next brew im thinking about going for a water profile of cl-95 mg-14 caco3-44 na-20 chloride-70 sulfate-57 RA -30

its gonna be 87.7% marris otter, 8.8% carapils and 3.5% crystal 30

any thoughts on the water profile i plan to use??

 

[Colbizle]

im no expert here but im just gonna throw a few things out there iv been researching hoping thewy can be debunked or ran with

iv really been captivated by this topic, iv never had a HF beer but i remember drinking a beer called armegeddon IPA by epic brewing company in New Zealand, when i first drank this beer i was amazed by the light fluffy airy mouthfeel which wat sparked my interest in this thread. i remember listening to a CYBI episode about epic's pale ale so i had a listen to it again the other day and he mentioned they have really soft water at their brewery, its rainwater from a resevoir. he mentioned they dont do much to it just up the chloride which i found very interesting as we know shaun likes his chloride so im going to throw caution to the wind and assume epic are using the same profile for their pale ale as their IPA, he also mentioned they use a really light crystal malt and theirs only two malts mentioned on their website for their ipa. im gonna assume soft water is calcium below 50ppm so if he's adding "a small bit of chloride" he could have a chloride/sulfate ratio of something like 70ppm/50ppm would this be unrealistic??

i also had a listen to some water podcasts and noted it was mentioned that high alkalinity can increase mouthfeel, could shaun be upping alkalinity and then balancing his mash PH with acid

i also listend to the brew strong episode about mouthfeel and jamil mentioned pliny has a good mouth feel despite finishing low (1.009ish) he credited this to the resins from the hops which is interesting especially when i heard shaun say on an online Q and A when asked about the cloudyness from yeast he replied its not yeast its hops, so maybe the speculation about poor floccing yeast strains is unrelaible

for my next brew im thinking about going for a water profile of cl-95 mg-14 caco3-44 na-20 chloride-70 sulfate-57 RA -30

its gonna be 87.7% marris otter, 8.8% carapils and 3.5% crystal 30

any thoughts on the water profile i plan to use??

I don't think shaun is only doing 70:57. The pale ale water profile on bru'un water is 300:50. Which I have used regularly and haven't felt a pillowy mouthfeel. I bet his chloride is in the range of probably 100-200 and sulfates are 100-200 as well (again, I could be wrong). Anything more than that you're going to venture in the realm of very mineralized tasting beer.. So it's a balancing act for sure.

I still believe the most import factor is:
1. Water profile (high chloride, low to moderate sulfates)
2. Yeast (certain yeast can give you a soft mouthfeel) seek those out.
3. Mash ph (5.4 for most hoppy beers)
4. High finishing gravity (residual dextrines) Shaunes final gravity for his pale is 15 and his IIPA is 16. Keep that in perspective. I suspect he is very light on his crystal percentages too in his grain bills.
5. Try, try, and try again until you get the results you want instead of trying to mimic someone else's process... as we all know, one persons process on their equipment does not translate to another on different equipment (I read that statement a lot on the pro brewer forums.)

that's just my 2cents.

 

[LakesideBrewing]

Good stuff.
Subbed

 

[irishrover32]

I don't think shaun is only doing 70:57. The pale ale water profile on bru'un water is 300:50. Which I have used regularly and haven't felt a pillowy mouthfeel. I bet his chloride is in the range of probably 100-200 and sulfates are 100-200 as well (again, I could be wrong). Anything more than that you're going to venture in the realm of very mineralized tasting beer.. So it's a balancing act for sure.

I still believe the most import factor is:
1. Water profile (high chloride, low to moderate sulfates)
2. Yeast (certain yeast can give you a soft mouthfeel) seek those out.
3. Mash ph (5.4 for most hoppy beers)
4. High finishing gravity (residual dextrines) Shaunes final gravity for his pale is 15 and his IIPA is 16. Keep that in perspective. I suspect he is very light on his crystal percentages too in his grain bills.
5. Try, try, and try again until you get the results you want instead of trying to mimic someone else's process... as we all know, one persons process on their equipment does not translate to another on different equipment (I read that statement a lot on the pro brewer forums.)

that's just my 2cents.

iv heard bad things about going high with chloride and sulfate iv read that sulfate of 150ppm and chloride of 100ppm can give really bad flavours or harshness, im not sure wat 150ppm chloride and 100ppm sulfate would do tho, i suppose thats something else i could play with, im afraid to take the calcium too high and the chloride ratio into the malty spectrum which is why i setled on calcium level of 93ppm and keeping the chloride at 70 and sulfate at 57 gives me a balanced ratio as appose to a bitter or malty ratio (but i dont know how accurate of important ratios are some think its bull) ill be sure to keep everyone updated on how the water additions turn out i see others are doing the same which is great

 

[zodiak3000]

iv heard bad things about going high with chloride and sulfate iv read that sulfate of 150ppm and chloride of 100ppm can give really bad flavours or harshness, im not sure wat 150ppm chloride and 100ppm sulfate would do tho, i suppose thats something else i could play with, im afraid to take the calcium too high and the chloride ratio into the malty spectrum which is why i setled on calcium level of 93ppm and keeping the chloride at 70 and sulfate at 57 gives me a balanced ratio as appose to a bitter or malty ratio (but i dont know how accurate of important ratios are some think its bull) ill be sure to keep everyone updated on how the water additions turn out i see others are doing the same which is great

i have taken both sulfate and chloride to 120ppm and it's gross; very harsh mineral character. i would never hit those numbers again in a batch. for a west coast IPA i usually keep chloride below 50ppm, calcium below 150ppm, and sulfate below 300ppm. however, this is not a west coast IPA we are discussing. IMO chloride should never go over 100ppm, sulfate is fine up 300ppm (maybe even higher for some). i think some are reading too deeply into what shaun said about the importance of chloride. important yes, high levels no. why would you want a crazy amount of chloride in your beer? its not heard of in any beer style except possibly a dortmunder (regional water) so why would HF do that? IMO i suspect lower levels of everything with an english yeast. even so if i was correct, so many variables within process/equipment. i doubt any of us could truly clone a HF beer to an immaculate level.

 

[Braufessor]

Well.... fermenter sample tonight at 10 days (from post #90)..... REALLY good. Just poured it out of the spigot on my fermenter and took a gravity reading (1.012) - lower than I thought I might get.

But, not dry at all. Gave my wife a small sample glass and (with no hints or description from me) she described it as delicious - but more significant to this thread - "really smooth and.... I am not sure.... but, I want to say soft or something like that."

I am not going to dry hop this batch as I want to harvest several relatively clean jars of yeast off of it. But, will get another one rollin soon. I think my post #90 is on the right track at least. Not perfect... but in the ballpark.

 

[zodiak3000]

Well.... fermenter sample tonight at 10 days (from post #90)..... REALLY good. Just poured it out of the spigot on my fermenter and took a gravity reading (1.012) - lower than I thought I might get.

But, not dry at all. Gave my wife a small sample glass and (with no hints or description from me) she described it as delicious - but more significant to this thread - "really smooth and.... I am not sure.... but, I want to say soft or something like that."

I am not going to dry hop this batch as I want to harvest several relatively clean jars of yeast off of it. But, will get another one rollin soon. I think my post #90 is on the right track at least. Not perfect... but in the ballpark.

have you used dennys yeast before for an IPA? ill be curious your results in a few weeks after conditioning. the recipe looks good.

 

[Braufessor]

i have only used it in some big, hoppy amber ales..... never in an APA or IPA.

 

[Colbizle]

im no expert here but im just gonna throw a few things out there iv been researching hoping thewy can be debunked or ran with

iv really been captivated by this topic, iv never had a HF beer but i remember drinking a beer called armegeddon IPA by epic brewing company in New Zealand, when i first drank this beer i was amazed by the light fluffy airy mouthfeel which wat sparked my interest in this thread. i remember listening to a CYBI episode about epic's pale ale so i had a listen to it again the other day and he mentioned they have really soft water at their brewery, its rainwater from a resevoir. he mentioned they dont do much to it just up the chloride which i found very interesting as we know shaun likes his chloride so im going to throw caution to the wind and assume epic are using the same profile for their pale ale as their IPA, he also mentioned they use a really light crystal malt and theirs only two malts mentioned on their website for their ipa. im gonna assume soft water is calcium below 50ppm so if he's adding "a small bit of chloride" he could have a chloride/sulfate ratio of something like 70ppm/50ppm would this be unrealistic??

i also had a listen to some water podcasts and noted it was mentioned that high alkalinity can increase mouthfeel, could shaun be upping alkalinity and then balancing his mash PH with acid

i also listend to the brew strong episode about mouthfeel and jamil mentioned pliny has a good mouth feel despite finishing low (1.009ish) he credited this to the resins from the hops which is interesting especially when i heard shaun say on an online Q and A when asked about the cloudyness from yeast he replied its not yeast its hops, so maybe the speculation about poor floccing yeast strains is unrelaible

for my next brew im thinking about going for a water profile of cl-95 mg-14 caco3-44 na-20 chloride-70 sulfate-57 RA -30

its gonna be 87.7% marris otter, 8.8% carapils and 3.5% crystal 30

any thoughts on the water profile i plan to use??

This is like the 4-5th time I've heard this straight from the mouth of pro-brewers.. That they don't really bother with mineral additions much and concentrate on ph and yet their beers are amazing. I find that extremely hard to believe but at the same time it makes sense. Makes me want to stop worrying so much about mineral additions and go with the flow. In fact, this weekend I may brew an IPA one with standard mineral additions 175:50 SO4:CL and one with nothing but a touch of chloride and see the difference. All mashing with a PH of 5.4.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

This is like the 4-5th time I've heard this straight from the mouth of pro-brewers.. That they don't really bother with mineral additions much and concentrate on ph and yet their beers are amazing. I find that extremely hard to believe but at the same time it makes sense. Makes me want to stop worrying so much about mineral additions and go with the flow. In fact, this weekend I may brew an IPA one with standard mineral additions 175:50 SO4:CL and one with nothing but a touch of chloride and see the difference. All mashing with a PH of 5.4.

I tend to follow the same advice on my own beers. I treat my tap water with slaked lime to drop out bicarbonate and only add minerals to get the most bicarb to drop out as possible.

The best IPA I have brewed to date was a low mineral water profile Ballast Point Sculpin clone using 1450. That was almost 2 years ago... I think I was diluting my treated tap with distilled water 50/50.

 

[Callacave]

Update: I did a split batch 2.5 gal each where the only difference were the hops. The water profile was 175 Sulfate and 100 Chloride.

For yeast I used a mix of 1056 and dregs from various bottles from Maine Beer Co.

Bittered with hop shots, 9mL at 60min (which I thought is actually too much), and then split the batch in two, and added 4 oz of hops to each @ 140, and whirpooled for 30 min. Double dry hopped with a total of about another 4.5 oz for each batch.

Both beers smell amazing, and the flavor is incredible. My complaint is the harshness which could come from over bittering, or the mineral profile. These beers are extremely young, and I just tapped and sampled, so there's a lot of yeast still in suspension.

I don't want to make a final comment on mouthfeel yet, but I'll say it's softer than usual, but I'll make a final judgement in a week or two.

Ph for the beers were around 4.40, ABV is 6.8%, so the alcohol might be contributing to some of the harshness early on.

I definitely think I'm going go with even softer water on my next batch. I think Shaun is using really soft water, with very minimal additions. He describes his beers as being round with no edges. That leads me to believe less is better. For my next batch I'm thinking of going 100 Sulfate and 50 Chloride.

This is a great thread! Keep it going!!!

 

[irishrover32]

Update: I did a split batch 2.5 gal each where the only difference were the hops. The water profile was 175 Sulfate and 100 Chloride.

For yeast I used a mix of 1056 and dregs from various bottles from Maine Beer Co.

Bittered with hop shots, 9mL at 60min (which I thought is actually too much), and then split the batch in two, and added 4 oz of hops to each @ 140, and whirpooled for 30 min. Double dry hopped with a total of about another 4.5 oz for each batch.

Both beers smell amazing, and the flavor is incredible. My complaint is the harshness which could come from over bittering, or the mineral profile. These beers are extremely young, and I just tapped and sampled, so there's a lot of yeast still in suspension.

I don't want to make a final comment on mouthfeel yet, but I'll say it's softer than usual, but I'll make a final judgement in a week or two.

Ph for the beers were around 4.40, ABV is 6.8%, so the alcohol might be contributing to some of the harshness early on.

I definitely think I'm going go with even softer water on my next batch. I think Shaun is using really soft water, with very minimal additions. He describes his beers as being round with no edges. That leads me to believe less is better. For my next batch I'm thinking of going 100 Sulfate and 50 Chloride.

This is a great thread! Keep it going!!!

any idea what your Ca and CACO3 was for that brew??

 

[Braufessor]

Here is my attempt from post #90. It is now 3 weeks from Brew day. Kegged around day 12-14. Carbing for last week.

Definitely a pretty good APA. I used Denny's yeast, a fair amt of flaked grains, lower carbonation.... all combine to give a relatively full mouthfeel. The water was similar to callacave above (180 sulfate and a bit lower on chloride - 70).

Mine is not harsh..... but, I do agree with the thoughts of going a bit lower on mineral content.... I will likely give that a try next time around..... maybe 120 and 60 perhaps.

There was no dryhop in this beer - all in a hopstand. Might reduce hops in boil/stand and add 2-3 ounces to a dryhop in next batch just to see how it turns out.

I might also up the flaked grains some more perhaps. I think Denny's yeast was a good call for this type of beer. Hops are nice, body is full.... but, it is not sweet or anything like that.

 

[Callacave]

any idea what your Ca and CACO3 was for that brew??

Ca was 133 and CaCO3 (I'm assuming you want RA) was -71