Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[Brewsncrabs]

I just ordered some Denny's yeast..... gonna try that.

In regard to crystal - I have been using a bit of crystal 20 and also some honey malt. gives a hint of color, some sweetness, but nothing like you get from caramel 60 or something like that.

I also use some wheat and flaked oats.

92% 2 row, 2% each of cara20, honey, oats and wheat..... still nice and light, but some sweetness and mouthfeel and body.

Sampling a Citra/centennial/cascade/comet/ahtanum pale ale right now. 12 days old. 1 day on the gas..... I think it is really quite good and would lend itself to some experimenting for this project. I might retry it with some water adjustments, slightly higher mash and denny's yeast.

Dennys 1450 gives an awesome mouthfeel in dark beers I have found. I'm fermenting Denny's Rye Ipa recipe with it now hoping for the same.

 

[Barley_Bob]

What an incredibly dark and depressing outlook you have on the world...

I think you missed the point. I'll make it very simple for you: the point is, yeast strain matters when it comes to mouth feel. (Not that you need the Antwerp strain) -no need to wait.

No need for "BS" comments.

Friendly ribbing.

 

[kaz4121]

I used Conan for a couple of beers, and it chews through everything. I did a wheat IPA, thinking all the extra body from 60% red wheat would stand up to Conan, but no. Obliterated. Very thin, dry beer. I mashed at 148, which I guess was my error, but I think I'm done with Conan.

I'm interested in hearing how WLP090 goes. I haven't quite gotten my hands on it. I'd like to try some of the other American strains that don't get as much attention, but I just haven't gotten to it. I really like WLP006, and I think I'm going to do an expanded run with it. I'll let you know how it goes.

@FatDragon, I'm starting to think that crystal has more to do with it than I thought. I generally just stick to base malts, but I think that crystal does more than I wanted to admit. I'm going to try working some in too, even if it's just C10 or C15.

WLP090 is like WLP001 on steroids. A great strain, but too attenuative for this application.

Crystal malts are always tricky. I usually use them for a touch of sweetness, but more so for obtaining that perfect orange hue. I think they can detract and battle the hops when used at more than 5% or so, which is the problem I'm having right now.

I've settled on eliminating the C40 and going for a 90 minute boil instead on my next batch.

 

[zodiak3000]

Anyone have more experience with Wyeast 1318 on this? I'm about to run a trial of IPA's with 1318 on different water profiles/mineral levels. I think its pretty safe to rule out 001/1056 and possibly Conan.

 

[Callacave]

Zodiak, I have used it a handful of times. I'm sure you've read that this is possibly the yeast Shaun uses. I have one more IPA that's carbing right now using 1318.

Based on the flavor profile this yeast gives out, I'm starting to doubt that this is what he uses. This last brew I fermented at 64, which is the coolest I've gone with this yeast. I was trying to reduce the ester production, but I'm still getting a familiar flavor coming through that I don't think I get when I drink HF.

I've even tried a much lower sulfate level with an elevated chloride level. I think I went as high as 225ppm for chloride and 100 for sulfate. Unlike what people might say that the hops would be muted because of this elevated level, I didn't experience that. I thought the hops came through well, but just didn't like the flavor I was getting.

That yeast never flocced for me, and i think I got closer to that mouthfeel we're all looking for, but I still don't think I was there. Maybe fermenting with 1318 even lower would help to get a cleaner profile, and a more modest and not so extreme level of minerals, say 100ppm of sulfate and chloride, along with a mash pH around 5.4-5.6 would help to achieve what we're looking for?

I think Shaun is doing other things that we just haven't figured out.

 

[zodiak3000]

Zodiak, I have used it a handful of times. I'm sure you've read that this is possibly the yeast Shaun uses. I have one more IPA that's carbing right now using 1318.

Based on the flavor profile this yeast gives out, I'm starting to doubt that this is what he uses. This last brew I fermented at 64, which is the coolest I've gone with this yeast. I was trying to reduce the ester production, but I'm still getting a familiar flavor coming through that I don't think I get when I drink HF.

I've even tried a much lower sulfate level with an elevated chloride level. I think I went as high as 225ppm for chloride and 100 for sulfate. Unlike what people might say that the hops would be muted because of this elevated level, I didn't experience that. I thought the hops came through well, but just didn't like the flavor I was getting.

That yeast never flocced for me, and i think I got closer to that mouthfeel we're all looking for, but I still don't think I was there. Maybe fermenting with 1318 even lower would help to get a cleaner profile, and a more modest and not so extreme level of minerals, say 100ppm of sulfate and chloride, along with a mash pH around 5.4-5.6 would help to achieve what we're looking for?

I think Shaun is doing other things that we just haven't figured out.

Thanks for the response.

Per Wyeast, 64 is on the low end of the temp. Maybe Ill start out around 62 and slowly bring it up throughout a week. What is the familiar flavor that you are getting that is not in HF beers? Esters? I hate certain english esters in IPA's. I would never use something like WLP002 in an IPA.

I have experimented with high levels of chloride and def not a fan. You get a very nasty mineral composition when you take both chloride/sulfate to over 100ppm. I know Shaun said he favors chloride, but I do not think he is taking it high. Maybe something like 60ppm chloride and 30ppm sulfate to start would be appropriate?

Ive heard the same about flocculation with 1318. HF beers are all pretty hazy (same as Treehouse, Tired Hands, etc.). Im pretty confident it is an english strain they are all dealing with.

 

[Callacave]

The flavors are definitely esters. It's not bad, just something that I can pick up easily after brewing with 1318 for a while now.

Shaun definitely uses an English strain, but either blends the esters and hop flavors perfectly, or maybe he's able to reduce the level of esters to a minimum?

My guess is he's between 100-200 ppm for sulfate, and I think you're right with the chloride, probably around 60 or so.

I feel he's doing something else though. He's huge on pH, but I don't think he's doing anything crazy, maybe just has them dialed in perfectly for each beer.

Besides the yeast contributing ha zines I'm sure the amount of dry hopping and just the massive amount of hop oils in his beer contributes to a lot of haze, plus the freshness of his beer.

Great discussion, I think VT is making some of the best beer in the world right now, and no disrespect to west coast brews...especially the drier west coast ipa, but they're missing out on the beautiful, luxurious mouthfeel of the east coast ipa, and it's not about sweetness that some west coasters seem to think east coast hoppy beers are

 

[ATXWolfBrew]

I would venture to say that HF chloride levels are well over 60ppm, and sulfate levels as you mentioned 100-200, depending on beer. High Cl levels combined with the right yeast(s) could do the trick. If you had issues with higher Cl/SO4 levels, Zodiak, it could be personal preference or the style of beer and yeasts you were working with. I have had great success with it for certain styles and moreso with a wheat/oats combo, which TH is huge on as well.

As for HF yeast, it could be fun to blend the 1318 with a higher flocculating yeast. I doubt they are using a single ale strain for these beers.

And I agree that east coast IPA's are top notch. I find it hard to really love some west coast IPA's as I find them harshly bitter and really lacking the balanced mouthfeel that I want. Of course, there are many awesome ones out West, but it is all personal preference.

 

[zodiak3000]

@Callacave. Very much agree, the guys on the east are doing some incredible things with hoppy beer these days. Would you describe the 1318 then as being similar in esters to any other english strain off the top of your head? Again, I am not a fan of something like WLP002 in an IPA (even fermented cold). I really am chasing that mouthfeel we are discussing, and feel I may be able to mute the ester production with cold ferment and dry hopping the **** out of the beer with Nelson and Citra.

@ATXWolfBrew I agree to some extent. I just know when chloride levels get high along with sulfate it gets harsh. There are lots of threads about it on HBT and other forums. Something similar as it sounds to a Dortmund water profile, personal preference I think its disgusting. Def something I am not tasting in HF beers, but who really knows. I do know that Kimmich from The Alchemist likes hard water with the impression of high sulfate. I have been going high sulfate with hoppy beers for awhile, slowly backing off closer to 200ppm vs 300ppm.

 

[moreb33rplz]

I just spent a weekend drinking HF for the first time. I don't think a homebrew clone is getting close anytime soon.

That all citra. holy crap it was so so so good.

 

[Callacave]

Zodiak, I haven't brewed with enough English strains to be able to tell you if it's similar to another English strain, but if anything it's definitely a fruity type of ester, but I'm sure that doesn't help much....lol

I just brewed an IPA today using 175ppm sulfate and 100 chloride. We'll see how it comes out. This time around I used some harvested 1056 with some dregs of various Maine Beer Co brews that I keep adding to the starter just for the hell of it. I mashed at 153, and hope to get around an FG around 1.014. Edward finishes somewhere around there if I remember. These days I'm tending to enjoy sulfate levels around 175 to 225.

 

[Colbizle]

Zodiak, I haven't brewed with enough English strains to be able to tell you if it's similar to another English strain, but if anything it's definitely a fruity type of ester, but I'm sure that doesn't help much....lol

I just brewed an IPA today using 175ppm sulfate and 100 chloride. We'll see how it comes out. This time around I used some harvested 1056 with some dregs of various Maine Beer Co brews that I keep adding to the starter just for the hell of it. I mashed at 153, and hope to get around an FG around 1.014. Edward finishes somewhere around there if I remember. These days I'm tending to enjoy sulfate levels around 175 to 225.

Awesome, I can't wait to hear your results. I'm going to try a 1:1 CASO4:CACL ratio on my next IPA similar to the levels you are targeting.

I'm curious though of your thoughts on what he does for darker beers like "Earl Coffee Oatmeal Stout". Do you think forgoes the sulfates and bumps chloride only? I'm going to brew an Oatmeal stout soon and wanted to experiment with a higher chloride level.

 

[Callacave]

Colbizle...I'm sure the amount of chloride is higher than sulfate in Earl or at the very least equal with sulfate. My guess is his pH could be slightly higher to reduce the harshness from the dark malts. I remember Shaun stating somewhere that each brew has a specific water profile that he's honed in from trial and error over the years.

I haven't had Earl in a long time, and he doesn't make it too often, but I think Everett is one of my favorite beers from him. It's just so damn chocolately/roasty with a luxuriously full/velvety mouthfeel. Damn, now I'm getting thirsty!

 

[Colbizle]

Colbizle...I'm sure the amount of chloride is higher than sulfate in Earl or at the very least equal with sulfate. My guess is his pH could be slightly higher to reduce the harshness from the dark malts. I remember Shaun stating somewhere that each brew has a specific water profile that he's honed in from trial and error over the years.

I haven't had Earl in a long time, and he doesn't make it too often, but I think Everett is one of my favorite beers from him. It's just so damn chocolately/roasty with a luxuriously full/velvety mouthfeel. Damn, now I'm getting thirsty!

Thanks Callacave, I've read this too through my research so far.

Honestly, I've never had the luxury of trying any of their beers. Maybe someday I will. But this newish? trend? Characteristic? of (silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel) has me extremely intrigued and just sounds damn good for most beer styles even for hoppy ones, even if it's against all conventions.. I want to see if I can achieve a similar profile characteristic in my own beers while still making them my own "style". I'm not trying to replicate exactly what HF is doing but I want to achieve a similar result. Isn't that what Homebrewing and even pro-brewing is all about? Making your own style and sharing that art with the world.

I usually target about 5.5 to 5.6 PH for my roasty dark beers, 5.4-5.3 for my Hoppy styles, and 5.3-5.2 for saisons, wheats, lagers, ect. Those numbers have been solidified through my online research and personal tastes.

BTW, I really appreciate all the information you provided so far in this thread it's been very insightful.

 

[Callacave]

If you remove all the hype around HF, and just try the beer without any bias, you'll find how incredibly balanced his beers are. Bitterness is right where you want it, hop flavor, aroma, mouthfeel. He just seems to be able to dial in everything perfectly without one thing feeling like it's out of place.

I always find people talking about a beer that finishes with a slightly higher FG as being sweeter, but I don't always find that to be the case. I think it's more to do with mouthfeel. Maybe people's minds are being tricked into thinking thicker is sweeter. Unless you're adding a ton of crystal malt, or something that leaves a residual sweetness in the beer, I think it's possible to have a full and round mouthfeel with plenty of bitterness and flavor.

Shaun's recipes are extremely simple. I tried to ask him about Everett one time, and of course he keeps his cards close to his sleeve. He told me the BYO recipe of Everett isn't really the actual recipe. He just tried to steer them in the right direction, and let the author come up with what he thought was the recipe. Shaun also told me that I'd be surprised at how simple Everett's recipe really is. That just always leads me to believe it's all in the process, and being meticulous in the way you do things, and taking great notes to tweak minor things to eventually achieve what you feel is the best you can do.

 

[Colbizle]

If you remove all the hype around HF, and just try the beer without any bias, you'll find how incredibly balanced his beers are. Bitterness is right where you want it, hop flavor, aroma, mouthfeel. He just seems to be able to dial in everything perfectly without one thing feeling like it's out of place.

I always find people talking about a beer that finishes with a slightly higher FG as being sweeter, but I don't always find that to be the case. I think it's more to do with mouthfeel. Maybe people's minds are being tricked into thinking thicker is sweeter. Unless you're adding a ton of crystal malt, or something that leaves a residual sweetness in the beer, I think it's possible to have a full and round mouthfeel with plenty of bitterness and flavor.

Shaun's recipes are extremely simple. I tried to ask him about Everett one time, and of course he keeps his cards close to his sleeve. He told me the BYO recipe of Everett isn't really the actual recipe. He just tried to steer them in the right direction, and let the author come up with what he thought was the recipe. Shaun also told me that I'd be surprised at how simple Everett's recipe really is. That just always leads me to believe it's all in the process, and being meticulous in the way you do things, and taking great notes to tweak minor things to eventually achieve what you feel is the best you can do.

Yes, balance is definitely key and it's something I'm pursing in my own brews as well. I also constantly hear from probrewers (keep it simple!).

I agree with the final gravity and perception of sweetness. If you look at some of deschutes recipes they give you a range in what their FG for each of their beers and I was surprised to see their hoppier beers finishing in the 14-19 FG range. Seems high but it does make sense now that I think of it, as you pointed out that it is resulting in a better mouthfeel than it is sweetness if you keep other factors in check such as crystals.

In fact my recent imperial red ale with 10% crystal ended up finishing 15 FG and there was not the perception of overly sweet or even sweetness for that matter. Just well rounded and balanced beer.

Brewing methodologies are changing dramatically and it's exciting to see/hear and then try at the homebrew level.

 

[Colbizle]

I'm also starting to think with Shaun's approach to great beer is not just about a great recipe formulation or a complex hop schedule which I think as homebrewers we get so hung up on. Little crystal here, little there, maybe some adjuncts, 3 base malts, step mash temps, yeast ect..

I think he works backwards, I think he envisions what he wants his beer to be starting with his known water profile and then he moves up the chain to recipe, mash, yeast, temps, ect. while keeping it simple through out, rinse and repeat.

 

[Colbizle]

Zodiak, I have used it a handful of times. I'm sure you've read that this is possibly the yeast Shaun uses. I have one more IPA that's carbing right now using 1318.

Based on the flavor profile this yeast gives out, I'm starting to doubt that this is what he uses. This last brew I fermented at 64, which is the coolest I've gone with this yeast. I was trying to reduce the ester production, but I'm still getting a familiar flavor coming through that I don't think I get when I drink HF.

I've even tried a much lower sulfate level with an elevated chloride level. I think I went as high as 225ppm for chloride and 100 for sulfate. Unlike what people might say that the hops would be muted because of this elevated level, I didn't experience that. I thought the hops came through well, but just didn't like the flavor I was getting.

That yeast never flocced for me, and i think I got closer to that mouthfeel we're all looking for, but I still don't think I was there. Maybe fermenting with 1318 even lower would help to get a cleaner profile, and a more modest and not so extreme level of minerals, say 100ppm of sulfate and chloride, along with a mash pH around 5.4-5.6 would help to achieve what we're looking for?

I think Shaun is doing other things that we just haven't figured out.

What kind of "flavor" were you getting when you tried 225ppm Chloride and 100 Sulfate that you didn't care for?

 

[Callacave]

Colbizle, this was a tough brew to do this on cause I was using up old hops and grain. I remember it having plenty of bitterness and flavor, but just not what I was looking for. I think it was a bit minerally tasting, but wasn't undrinkable, just different.

 

[Colbizle]

Colbizle, this was a tough brew to do this on cause I was using up old hops and grain. I remember it having plenty of bitterness and flavor, but just not what I was looking for. I think it was a bit minerally tasting, but wasn't undrinkable, just different.

Interesting thanks for the insight. I've noticed in some of my research and specifically using Bru'n Water for my water adjustments, that elevated sulfate levels (150-300+) don't play well when there is elevated chloride levels (above 100). It would be interesting to hear from Martin's or AJ's take on such "extreme" levels of chloride with high sulfate levels and the ramifications. I'm starting to suspect that what shaun is doing is keeping his sulfates low 0-150ppm? and his chloride in the mid range 100-200ppm? so as to get that nice fullness but not harsh minerally taste when both ions are elevated. I don't believe a 1:1 relationship is the answer either.

 

[Callacave]

My gut is telling me that Shaun still has higher sulfate than chlorides, but maybe they are pretty close. I'm interested in my latest IPA when it's ready. It's the one with 175ppm sulfate and 100ppm chloride. I'll let you know in a few weeks how this beer turns out.

I still think there is a lot more going on with regards to achieving this mouthfeel other than salt additions, but at least this is a start. Maybe pH is the next thing to look at.

 

[Colbizle]

My gut is telling me that Shaun still has higher sulfate than chlorides, but maybe they are pretty close. I'm interested in my latest IPA when it's ready. It's the one with 175ppm sulfate and 100ppm chloride. I'll let you know in a few weeks how this beer turns out.

I still think there is a lot more going on with regards to achieving this mouthfeel other than salt additions, but at least this is a start. Maybe pH is the next thing to look at.

Agreed, I don't believe water is the only solution but it plays a major part imo. Like he states, there's no magic in his process, just years of trial and error. I don't see why we can't get there either!

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

Well water is generally hard water. You'd be hard pressed to find a well that supplied soft water.

With that said, I'd also be inclined to believe that having hard water, Shaun is familiar with what he can and can't do with the water he has. Soft, low-mineral content water is generally associated with crisp, dry finishing beers while high mineral content beers are generally full bodied.

That clears up where he gets the body for his beer, but what about the "pillowy" quality? IMO that is more of a factor of yeast, fermentation control and brew process.

Low-flocc yeast, over-pitch, high FG, post ferment pH correction, and dialed in ingredients (quality & quantities)

 

[Callacave]

Well water is generally hard water. You'd be hard pressed to find a well that supplied soft water.

With that said, I'd also be inclined to believe that having hard water, Shaun is familiar with what he can and can't do with the water he has. Soft, low-mineral content water is generally associated with crisp, dry finishing beers while high mineral content beers are generally full bodied.

That clears up where he gets the body for his beer, but what about the "pillowy" quality? IMO that is more of a factor of yeast, fermentation control and brew process.

Low-flocc yeast, over-pitch, high FG, post ferment pH correction, and dialed in ingredients (quality & quantities)

I agree with a lot of this, but how do we know if Shaun isn't filtering his water to remove minerals?

 

[Colbizle]

I agree with a lot of this, but how do we know if Shaun isn't filtering his water to remove minerals?

I could see him blending.. again, I have no idea since I've never had any of his beers. Did they taste "minerally" at all to you when you had them?

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

I have a hard time believing he would have RO water delivered. I have almost as hard of a time believing he has an RO system in house, but... who knows?

 

[ATXWolfBrew]

I am not 100% positive, but Shaun is filtering his water. The hard well water in that region is known to have some unpredictable mineral content. Could be RO, probably carbon filtration or dilution...

To stress again, a combination of all processes is what gets his beers to where they are. Yeast is huge - and a water profile to complement the yeast strain (blend) is huge, pH throughout the entire process is extremely important and is honed in for each individual beer.

Curious to hear how @Callacave 's IPA turns out...I like those numbers and think it is possible to get that crisp bitterness from the sulfate along with the creaminess from the Cl, creating something great. Let us know how it goes!

 

[Callacave]

I am not 100% positive, but Shaun is filtering his water. The hard well water in that region is known to have some unpredictable mineral content. Could be RO, probably carbon filtration or dilution...

To stress again, a combination of all processes is what gets his beers to where they are. Yeast is huge - and a water profile to complement the yeast strain (blend) is huge, pH throughout the entire process is extremely important and is honed in for each individual beer.

Curious to hear how @Callacave 's IPA turns out...I like those numbers and think it is possible to get that crisp bitterness from the sulfate along with the creaminess from the Cl, creating something great. Let us know how it goes!

In a few weeks I'll let you guys know how things turn out.

 

[BreezyBrew]

In a few weeks I'll let you guys know how things turn out.

Ok. If you forget, I'm trying your shoelaces together.

 

[Braufessor]

Here is what I did yesterday..... smaller "vermont inspired" pale ale.... building up Denny's yeast in this batch and will then repitch into 2-3 future batches.

Grain:
5 lbs Rahr 2 Row
5 lbs Golden Promise
.5 lb Flaked Barley
.25lb Flaked Wheat
.25lb Flaked Oats
.25lb Caramel 20
.25lb Honey Malt

1.055 O.G.

Mash @ 154-55

Calcium = 95
Mg = 10
Na = 8
Sulfate = 180
Chloride = 75
Bicarb = 44

(90% RO water, 10% filtered tap water... very hard tap water)

Treated mash and sparge water with:
Gypsum = .8 grams/gallon
CaCl = .4grams/gallon
Epsom Salt = .4grams/gallon


Preboil kettle pH ended up at 5.36

Hops:
60 - 1 ounce warrior
15 - .33 each of Citra/Centennial/Simcoe
5 - 1 ounce each of Citra/Centennial/Simcoe
1.5 Hour Hopstand starting at 175 or so, letting it sit, chiller on after 45 minutes to gradually bring down to 60. Used the following in the hopstand:
2 ounce citra
2 ounce Simcoe
.75 Comet
.75 Centennial
.5 Apollo
** May or may not dry hop.... will taste around day 10-12 and decide at that point. If I do, I will likely use a smaller version of the hopstand additions (2-3 ounces total).

Denny's yeast.

I will see how this one comes out and then tinker with it and make a couple IPA's and an Amber with the harvested yeast.