acetobacter infection. anyway to save it?

[amcclai7]

For the 2nd time in my 5 years of brewing I have an infection (the beer that is, not me) I am absolutely sure of it. It happened the same way both times. I pitched a pack of what I thought was viable yeast, but apparently was not. 3 days later, no signs of fermentation so in went the US-05. First time was a milk stout but this was an extremely hopped IIPA so I thought the antibacterial properties might save me this time...wrong! I tasted a sample today after a week (hit the F.G. and then some) but it had that unmistakeable vinegary taste. It is my understanding that no matter ow well you sanitize a tiny amount of bacteria is bound to get into the beer. If the yeast takes off quickly it lowers the pH, consumes most of the food the bugs need, and scrubs oxygen. If the yeast doesn't take off you get an infection) The rest of the beer is there but right now I would deem it undrinkable. I know, I know, its only been a week. Let it age a bit. That's what I did with the last beer and it only got more vinegary as time went on, and not the pleasing vinegar note you find in some sour beers, this is just an off flavor. Here's my plan and I am very, very open to suggestion.

I'll let it ride for just a few more days and recheck, if it hasn't calmed down I'll cold crash to hopefully drop the yeast and the bacteria and keg. since acetobacter lowers the ph with its vinegar production, why not make a solution of baking soda and water. I could try it in small measures first, find the correct ratio and maybe that will mitigate the vinegar taste. IDK, i'm spitballing here. This is an IIPA and the cost to make it has been quite large. I'm not looking to make it perfect I just want it drinkable. I can't stand the thought of all that money and hard work going down the drain.

Please help!!

 

[Yooper]

I'll let it ride for just a few more days and recheck, if it hasn't calmed down I'll cold crash to hopefully drop the yeast and the bacteria and keg. since acetobacter lowers the ph with its vinegar production, why not make a solution of baking soda and water. I could try it in small measures first, find the correct ratio and maybe that will mitigate the vinegar taste. IDK, i'm spitballing here. This is an IIPA and the cost to make it has been quite large. I'm not looking to make it perfect I just want it drinkable. I can't stand the thought of all that money and hard work going down the drain.

Please help!!

The reason this process won't work is because of the way acetobacter works.

To simplify, the bacteria "eats" ethanol (your alcohol in the beer) and changes it to acetic acid (vinegar).

Changing the pH won't change the vinegar flavor or renew the alcohol.

 

[Yooper]

One thing I thought I'd mention for prevention next time is that acetic acid bacteria can't grow and work without alcohol (so no problem in the must) or without oxygen. So, in a fermenter that doesn't have a huge headspace for a lengthy time after fermentation ends, it shouldn't be able to take hold.

 

[F_R_O_G]

I know it's hard to let the beer go but if there's an infection like that your going to be fighting it and puking to the last drop. dump it and start fresh. if it wasn't an IPA you might have been able to add fruit to it to mellow it out...

btw, many sacks do you think Aaron Rodgers will get vs the #1 defense this Sunday because he can't run?

 

[RM-MN]

What will it cost you to wait a week or 2? What you taste at a week is hardly definitive. Let it complete the ferment and then sample it. If it is acetobacter, you'll have no doubt at that point but you'd feel pretty foolish dumping a beer that only had more than the usual amount of acetaldehyde which in combination with the fermentation going on might taste "vinegary".

 

[Curtis2010]

If your salvage attempts dont work out then just go with it and make vinegar.

 

[uncleleon]

Yeah with acerbater if you catch it early you can cold crash and drink the tart beer. Time will not heal this brew. It will turn to vinegar and try to spread across your brewery

 

[amcclai7]

ahh, getting mixed signals here. Going off of what Yooper said it seems that it wouldn't be acetobacter. Whatever this flavor is, if its from a bug, is something that took hold before the fermentation (and hence alcohol) ever took place. Maybe it is acetaldehyde like RM-MN said and I just need to wait. The beer has already attenuated 76% but when I took the sample today there was still a bit of a krausen and the airlock is still slowly bubbling. The sample I drew was full of yeast and so after i took a reading i poured it into a glass and let it sit in the fridge to drop the yeast. The taste was not a severe but still noticeably there. However, what if it is acetobacter or some other bug? In that case it seems like I should drink it as young as possible to prevent them from causing more destruction.

I'm going to have another quick taste. its not really that vinegary to be honest, its more....

 

[Curtis2010]

ahh, getting mixed signals here. Going off of what Yooper said it seems that it wouldn't be acetobacter. ....
I'm going to have another quick taste. its not really that vinegary to be honest, its more....

If its well along in fermentation as you stated then there should be alcohol available for it to feed on. I've had brews in the past that to my pallete taste a bit of vinegar, but later mellowed.

 

[amcclai7]

gosh, what the hell. Here are tasting notes.

A - murky orange

Ar - moderate hop aroma, sweet tropical fruits and orange marmalade cut off abruptly but a sharp prickly aroma

T - sweet tropical hop flavors, punchy lingering bitterness but finishes not with sourness but rather a soapy note.

O - I think I may have freaked out a bit too much. Its not acetobacter, it simply isnt sour enough. The one other time my yeast crapped out on me that was what it was but given what Yooper said and taking a second tasting has convinced me otherwise.

My girlfriend, who is often able to pick out flavors that I am not and who loves IPA's, detected no off flavors whatsoever and said what I was tasting was just extreme bitterness. Makes sense, this one came in at 130 IBU. I guess its just green and I need to wait on it. I usually don't taste beers anywhere near this early, but I was afraid b/c of the dormant period. we'll see.

Thanks for your patience with me.

P.S. here is a pic of the krausen. Anything weird going on? The hole was poked in there by my turkey baster.

 

[brrman]

I have had the same experience where I thought a beer was completely off. My wife (seasoned beer drinker) tasted it and said nope - just fine. I could not drink it, but she and a friend of hers thought it was great.

That krausen looks totally normal to me.

 

[amcclai7]

Its been another week. After I originally made this post the beer bubbled away for another two days at least. Checked the gravity today and DAMN!! 1.009 from 1.075. That's 87% attenuation!!! I did use a pound of sugar in the boil, but still. That leads me to believe that the Conan yeast that had not taken off after 3 days must have risen. No way you get 87% AA on a beer that big with a single packet of US-05.

On to the taste. Whatever that first taste was, I'm still trying to describe it, is still there. No more or no less, its exactly the same. Its kinda soapy but not overly so. It reminds me of solventy alcohol but that's not quite right either. Its very green tasting (by that I mean both young tasting and chlorophyll tasting) The fact that this flavor hasn't changed at all leads me to believe its just too f***ing bitter. If it had been an off flavor from fermentation the extra week of active fermentation should have modified that at least a little bit. If it were bugs inside, there should be signs of an infection now or at least the taste should have intensified.

I am very sensitive to off flavors. So much so that whenever I drink a beer with a significant one that's all I can taste long after I finish the beer. Sitting here writing this several minutes after finishing the sample all I can taste is bitterness. The back of my tongue is completely numb. I tried drinking another beer and it tastes like water.

My plan is to make a hop tea, dry hop it, and add hops to the keg. I think the bitterness can be quelled, or at least seem more in place, if enough hop flavor and aroma are able to jump out of the glass. Perhaps when carbonated the bitterness won't lay so heavy on the palate.

What about cold crashing? Would that help clear some of the hop particulates and quell the bitterness somewhat? I used hop extract for bittering so....

Wish me luck. Any suggestions are more than welcomed.

 

[g-star]

What about cold crashing? Would that help clear some of the hop particulates and quell the bitterness somewhat? I used hop extract for bittering so....

No. Bitterness comes from isomerizing alpha acids, which are soluble in water (beer). Floating hop vegetal matter has nothing to do with bitterness whatsoever.

I suggest you dump it and start over. Life is to short to choke down 5 gallons of barely-palatable beer. Think of the $$ lost as an expensive lesson in the importance of good yeast practices. One pack of yeast in a 1.087 beer is no where near enough, even if the pack was manufactured the day before you brewed.

 

[IslandLizard]

Suggestions?

How many times have you pulled that lid off the fermentor? This isn't helping your cause either. Snake a 1/4" tube down the grommet hole and siphon some beer out for testers and tasters. Try not to disturb that headspace until you're ready to rack or package. Use a flashlight to peek through that hole to inspect, if you're curious.

As mentioned already, that single pack of yeast is not nearly enough for a healthy fermentation. Learn to make large yeast starters, and most of these problems will resolve.

If you can't stand bitterness why brew a 130+ IBU? What you could do is finish this up, and blend with another beer at drinking time. Stouts and Porters go really well with IPAs. 1 Stout : 2 IPA.

 

[amcclai7]

For the record I almost always pitch a large amount of yeast. The conan Yeast pack I pitched was supposed to be a double pitch of 200+ billion cells. I realize that's a bit of an underpitch given that the beer is 1.075 (not 1.087 87% was the AA) but I wanted the esters from conan, they're amazing. It must have lost viability in transit or I pitched too cold. Either way this is an extremely rare problem for me. Also, I like bitterness, this one just went a bit too far. For the record Pliny is 284 IBU. It's not overwhelmingly bitter because they use hop extract. I did too. Done it for many, many beers and never had a problem. Finally, I rarely open my fermenters. Usually only once, maybe twice if dry-hopping. The only reason I have opened this one twice already, is the fact that the lack of fermentation scared me and I needed to check on it. Everything that has happened here almost never happens to me. Just been I perfect storm of s**t.

And g-star, no flipping way am I dumping it. I follow Revy's Advice https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ne...virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/ I've never understood why on earth somebody would dump a beer. Let it sit on the yeast a bit longer, or bottle it and forget it. I've heard dozens and dozens of stories (probably several hundred on that thread) of young beers tasting off only to pop open a bottle several months later and have it be spectacular. I mean come on, its not even carbed yet! Also, its not undrinkable, just really freaking bitter. I won't give up so easily.

 

[g-star]

For the record Pliny is 284 IBU. It's not overwhelmingly bitter because they use hop extract.

Based on statements like these and the comments about hop particles adding bitterness, I think the real problem is that you don't have a solid understanding of how hops work to provide bitterness in beer. You should read up on theoretical vs. actual IBU's, chemical composition of hop extract, and the role of heat/boil time on isomerization of alpha acids. Perhaps then your beer won't be so bitter as to mistaken it for an infection.

Regarding the dump/no-dump question, its your beer so do as you please. I would keep in mind however that the referenced individual also recommends keeping all beers in primary for a month at a minimum, which is flat-out ridiculous, so take that with however many grains of salt you see fit.