AB acquires Four Peaks, looks to New Belgium next

[hunter_le five]

I should be ok with INBev buying up as many craft breweries as possible?

Nobody's holding a gun to their heads and saying they have to sell.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Nobody's holding a gun to their heads and saying they have to sell.

And furthermore, none of these breweries are in any particular bind that would force them sell. IIRC. So it's not like ABInbev is feeding itself off the weakest of the herd.

 

[geoffey]

You said InBev is using tactics that are detrimental to small brewers.



Well, small brewers are also using tactics that are detrimental to small brewers.



Okay for one, but not the other?

When one tactic is meant to be to the detriment of thousands of little guys in order to make a conglomerate more profitable, and the other tactic is meant to protect one brewery's intellectual property rights, then yes: It's ok for the one and not the other. At least in my book.

But again, I don't know enough about those lawsuits in question to be able to comment much further than that. I'll concede that Stone is quite big and such a lawsuit could be considered frivolous. I just don't know.

Interestingly a new brewery is in the process of opening in my neighborhood called Bryn Mawr Brewing company. It's been a long process that began a year ago. A few weeks ago they received a cease and desert letter from a winery in Portland who uses the name Bryn Mawr. There was a big deal made about how these issues are typical dealt with in the craft beer industry without resorting to lawsuits. But the winery wouldn't relent and now Bryn Mawr Brewing Co has another name.

 

[bob1852]

Nobody's holding a gun to their heads and saying they have to sell.

Yeah, if anyone's to blame here; it's those voluntarily selling to the big boys.

I mean, if they were really all about the "craft", they'd never sell. Right? RIGHT?

So maybe the hypocrisy of these craft brewery owners are the evil ones...

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

When one tactic is meant to be to the detriment of thousands of little guys in order to make a conglomerate more profitable, and the other tactic is meant to protect one brewery's intellectual property rights, then yes: It's ok for the one and not the other. At least in my book.

But again, I don't know enough about those lawsuits in question to be able to comment much further than that. I'll concede that Stone is quite big and such a lawsuit could be considered frivolous. I just don't know.

Interestingly a new brewery is in the process of opening in my neighborhood called Bryn Mawr Brewing company. It's been a long process that began a year ago. A few weeks ago they received a cease and desert letter from a winery in Portland who uses the name Bryn Mawr. There was a big deal made about how these issues are typical dealt with in the craft beer industry without resorting to lawsuits. But the winery wouldn't relent and now Bryn Mawr Brewing Co has another name.

How is it that frivolity has a basis on size?

 

[geoffey]

Why shouldn't/aren't you?



Haven't they earned the right?

Listen: there is a difference between what their rights are and what my preferences are. Stop making assumptions about what I'm saying and read what I'm actually writing here.

The argument is that what they are doing is not good for the craft beer business overall. I've not once mentioned that they shouldn't be allowed to do it. I also have not once offered an opinion about whether any such craft breweries should have their pay day.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Listen: there is a difference between what their rights are and what my preferences are. Stop making assumptions about what I'm saying and read what I'm actually writing here.

The argument is that what they are doing is not good for the craft beer business overall. I've not once mentioned that they shouldn't be allowed to do it. I also have not once offered an opinion about whether any such craft breweries should have their pay day.

Oh I read exactly what you are writing. You are irrationally discriminating against one entity because they have a highly successful business model driven solely by consumer choice. And that would make perfect sense IF ABInbev were buying the brands for the sole purpose of sending them off to the oblivion to minimize variety...

but they aren't.

 

[Calder]

Nobody's holding a gun to their heads and saying they have to sell.

Good for them getting a big payday. That's capitalism; not necessarily good for beer though.

And furthermore, none of these breweries are in any particular bind that would force them sell. IIRC. So it's not like ABInbev is feeding itself off the weakest of the herd.

I don't think AB want the struggling brewery. They want the profitable ones.

Interestingly a new brewery is in the process of opening in my neighborhood called Bryn Mawr Brewing company.

'Big Hill' - Do they speak Welsh in Minneapolis?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I don't think AB want the struggling brewery. They want the profitable ones.

I did not mean "bind" as in struggling to get their foot in. I meant "bind" as in legal issues, financial mismanagement, or tax issues but an otherwise popular and profitable share of the market.

 

[bob1852]

Good for them getting a big payday. That's capitalism; not necessarily good for beer though.

Not necessarily bad either.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Good for them getting a big payday. That's capitalism; not necessarily good for beer though.

Not good for beer, or not good for "craft" beer?

There is a distinction, although I am not convinced anyone here knows what it is beyond "is" and "is not" an ABInbev holding.

 

[geoffey]

Oh I read exactly what you are writing. You are irrationally discriminating against one entity because they have a highly successful business model driven solely by consumer choice. And that would make perfect sense IF ABInbev were buying the brands for the sole purpose of sending them off to the oblivion to minimize variety...

but they aren't.

I am discriminating in the sense of making a choice about who's beer I choose to buy. Just like every other consumer. But you clearly don't get my reasons why. It has nothing to do with their business model, it has to do with their tactics that I believe what l have a negative effect on an industry I care about. You think it's irrational? Oh well. I've laid out my reasons which I think are quite rational.

 

[cyanmonkey]

I for one welcome our ABInbev overlords.

 

[broadbill]

Not necessarily bad either.

Anybody know what typically happens to the investors/founders/key people when In-bev buys their company?

I can envision a scenario where some of these people get rich instantly and spin out into the craft beer industry advising companies, investing into new start-up breweries, trade organizations, and/or sitting on boards.

Not sure this happens, but if it does its certainly would be multiplier effect benefit to the industry.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I am discriminating in the sense of making a choice about who's beer I choose to buy. Just like every other consumer. But you clearly don't get my reasons why. It has nothing to do with their business model, it has to do with their tactics that I believe what l have a negative effect on an industry I care about. You think it's irrational? Oh well. I've laid out my reasons which I think are quite rational.

I take no issue over your choice. I do take issue with your discrimination against tactics that you agree are ethical, except when it's done by a conglomerate who actually has the financial means. That is what I deem irrational. I also take issue with your assertion that what they are doing has any negative effect on the industry. If anything, their tactics have improved distribution of brands many found obscure to their markets.

I for one welcome our ABInbev overlords.

I really just don't "get" the ABInbev hate. Nothing they are doing is illegal or unethical for any other brewery, or industry for that matter. But when ABInbev does it ... holy fvckballs.

I also do not "get" the product hate. As I see it there are, basically, 4 kinds of drinkers from a Budweiser perspective.

1. Those who tried it and disliked it as a product.
2. Those who tried it, enjoyed it, but moved on to criticize it for not being Pliney, Bass, or Old Rasputin.
3. Those who tried it, enjoy it, and continue to enjoy it, and other offerings.
4. Those who tried it, enjoy it, and refuse to drink anything but.

I think 2 is the most common and it confuses the hell out of me.

Anybody know what typically happens to the investors/founders/key people when In-bev buys their company?

I can envision a scenario where some of these people get rich instantly and spin out into the craft beer industry advising companies, investing into new start-up breweries, trade organizations, and/or sitting on boards.

Not sure this happens, but if it does its certainly would be multiplier effect benefit to the industry.

I've heard of varied results post acquisition. None that I would consider typical to an ABInbev scenario but typical to a partnership scenario where the investor sees a differing path from the status quo. Startups seem to be rife with that scenario and it's usually the brewer who parts ways to be replaced.

 

[Paps]

Definitely. But it can not generate 12.2 billion in annual revenue of a sub-par product..

Wrong.
Many a beer drinker faces an unending war of quality vs quantity.
These are people drinking to get drunk (big suprise there)
Often they will buy ****ty beer because they can get more beer.
Prime example...."Keystone Ice"
Keystone drinkers KNOW that it's a ****ty beer.
Their motto is "choke down 4 and then you'll be drunk enough to not mind how it tastes."
Another example is "Hamms"
a local grocery chain in northern indiana sold a case of that garbage for $5 a case (this WAS 20 years ago mind you)
It was their best selling beer.(and one of the grossest i've ever tried)
Lets use Bud itself as an example....
Did you say "OMG I LOVE THIS BEER!" upon your first sip of it?
Lord knows as it was the first beer i tried i can say that i sure didn't.
Bud drinkers if given the chance (to pay the same price between the 2 options) would choose for "Michelob" over "Bud" (same company i know, it was intentional)
and the Michelob line does (not often) release some different styles of beer which are actually pretty good.
HOWEVER.....they use mass marketing to ram 1 style down the throats of comsumers. They indeed are tha wal-mart of the beer world.

@ the guy whom said something to the effect of "Nobodys holding a gun to their head to make them sell to AB?INBEV"

I forget which company but the former owner of a company just bought out by Bud.....that was insulted by Bud in its superbowl commercial last year, said something like "It adds insult for a sale that I didn't want to do in the first place."
This leads me to beleive that Bud approached them, said "here's our offer, turn it down and every distributor you use will stop carrying your product because they are in our pockets."........it pretty much really IS holding a gun to their heads.

You can keep loving on AB/INBEV all you want but IMHO it's flat out stupid to call other people irrational for disliking their practices in the business world.

 

[bob1852]

I forget which company but the former owner of a company just bought out by Bud.....that was insulted by Bud in its superbowl commercial last year, said something like "It adds insult for a sale that I didn't want to do in the first place."
This leads me to beleive that Bud approached them, said "here's our offer, turn it down and every distributor you use will stop carrying your product because they are in our pockets."........it pretty much really IS holding a gun to their heads.

So, let me get this straight....

- you're not sure what company
- you're not sure who from the company said anything
- you're not sure what the person actually said

And based on that you were led to believe something happened that means they were forced to sell??

Haha

 

[hunter_le five]

@ the guy whom said something to the effect of "Nobodys holding a gun to their head to make them sell to AB?INBEV"

I forget which company but the former owner of a company just bought out by Bud.....that was insulted by Bud in its superbowl commercial last year, said something like "It adds insult for a sale that I didn't want to do in the first place."
This leads me to beleive that Bud approached them, said "here's our offer, turn it down and every distributor you use will stop carrying your product because they are in our pockets."........it pretty much really IS holding a gun to their heads.

Hi. That was me.

And wow. A vague half-remembered anecdote about an unnamed brewery, followed by pure speculation. Compelling stuff.

You got a source for any of this?

Edit: dammit AZ

 

[Calder]

Not trying to create an argument, just wanted to post what I found on the web. I have repeatedly said ABs primary business (just like any other shareholder business) is to make money, and not beer, and that beer is just the vehicle they use to do it, and I have taken a lot of flak for it.

A quote from the CEO (Carlos Brito), "We say our dream is to be the best beer company in a better world," he told a Stanford Graduate School of Business class in 2008, during one of several returns to the academic center where he earned his MBA, "And that's measured by profitability"

The goal is to be the beer company that makes the most money, not the best beer.

 

[pdxal]

@ the guy whom said something to the effect of "Nobodys holding a gun to their head to make them sell to AB?INBEV"

I forget which company but the former owner of a company just bought out by Bud.....that was insulted by Bud in its superbowl commercial last year, said something like "It adds insult for a sale that I didn't want to do in the first place."
This leads me to beleive that Bud approached them, said "here's our offer, turn it down and every distributor you use will stop carrying your product because they are in our pockets."........it pretty much really IS holding a gun to their heads.

You can keep loving on AB/INBEV all you want but IMHO it's flat out stupid to call other people irrational for disliking their practices in the business world.

You're probably talking about Elysian Brewing and one of the founders/owners Dick Cantwell. He was, I believe, out voted by the other owners to sell out to AB Inbev and has since resigned from the company.

http://www.brewbound.com/news/elysians-dick-cantwell-resigns-from-a-b-inbev

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

You can keep loving on AB/INBEV all you want but IMHO it's flat out stupid to call other people irrational for disliking their practices in the business world.

So you think it's NOT irrational to accept the behavior from any brewery other than ABInbev?

I actually have no particular love for AB/Inbev. I just will not slight them for running a business in such a manner that ANY OTHER BREWERY would do in the same situation. Doing that, is well, just stupid.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Not trying to create an argument, just wanted to post what I found on the web. I have repeatedly said ABs primary business (just like any other shareholder business) is to make money, and not beer, and that beer is just the vehicle they use to do it, and I have taken a lot of flak for it.

A quote from the CEO (Carlos Brito), "We say our dream is to be the best beer company in a better world," he told a Stanford Graduate School of Business class in 2008, during one of several returns to the academic center where he earned his MBA, "And that's measured by profitability"

The goal is to be the beer company that makes the most money, not the best beer.

Who said they are in the market to make the best beer? Umm, no-one.

I specifically said they are not maximizing profits by cutting corners and reducing the quality of their products. Why you don't understand supply chain brokering? They don't settle for lower quality malt, they negotiate a lower price on the malt they've been buying. Thus, maximizing their profits and/or lowering their prices to increase consumer appeal.

 

[bob1852]

Who said they are in the market to make the best beer? Umm, no-one.

I specifically said they are not maximizing profits by cutting corners and reducing the quality of their products. Why you don't understand supply chain brokering? They don't settle for lower quality malt, they negotiate a lower price on the malt they've been buying. Thus, maximizing their profits and/or lowering their prices to increase consumer appeal.

And don't discount the economies of scale and what that means as it trickles down to smaller breweries and us homebrewers. If InBev wasn't locking up contracts for millions of pound of malt, there'd be much less malt overall; hence higher priced malt for everyone (including small breweries and homebrewers).

 

[Paps]

I was about to tell those crybabys to "Look it up yourself. It's not my responsibility to provide you with links."
But thankfully somebody had a clue as to what i was talking about.
Thanks for clarifying the sale.

As Calder mentions above, as several before him, AB is more concerned about profits vs quality beer. If you refuse to accept that as fact then by all means, keep drinking your Budweiser. Nobody is trying to stop you from it.
But for those whom preffer a company to actually offer something other than a light American lager on their beer menu beyond a light American lager mixed with imitation lime juice,( read actual quality beer ) don't assume they are being irrational for disliking a company whom buys out actual craft brewery to then insult them publicly. AB insulted homebrewers in a superbowl commercial i beleive just the year previous But `hey....go on and countinue to endlessly supply the company that mocks you and your trade with money from beer sales.

 

[Paps]

So you think it's NOT irrational to accept the behavior from any brewery other than ABInbev?

Oh....Did i say that?
Oh....that's right, I DIDN'T
Don't try to `put words into my mouth`

Bad/unethical business practices are just that and i will avoid doing business with ANY company that i deem that is partaking in them.
AB gets the same treatment from me as anyone else.

Here....have a Budweiser when you're finished with that kool-aid.

 

[kombat]

I forget which company but the former owner of a company just bought out by Bud.....that was insulted by Bud in its superbowl commercial last year, said something like "It adds insult for a sale that I didn't want to do in the first place."
This leads me to beleive that Bud approached them, said "here's our offer, turn it down and every distributor you use will stop carrying your product because they are in our pockets."

Or maybe they were a minority owner that got outvoted.

Or maybe their wife talked them into it.

Or maybe they have a special needs kid and needed the cash infusion.

Or a dozen other possibilities besides some dark, nefarious beer cabal manipulating reluctant owners into relinquishing their life's work unwillingly.

 

[kombat]

AB is more concerned about profits vs quality beer.

And we're saying, "WHO GIVES A SH*T?"

Do you think McDonald's is striving to make the world's best hamburger? Do you think Coca-Cola is passionately striving to create the world's best soft drink? Do you think anyone at Ford thinks their cars are nicer than a BMW?

EVERY company is first and foremost about profits. THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM A COMPANY AND NOT A CHARITY OR A HOBBY.

As an AB-Inbev shareholder, if they ever STOP making profit their #1 priority, I'm going to be pretty p*ssed.

 

[hunter_le five]

@ the guy whom said something to the effect of "Nobodys holding a gun to their head to make them sell to AB?INBEV"

I forget which company but the former owner of a company just bought out by Bud.....that was insulted by Bud in its superbowl commercial last year, said something like "It adds insult for a sale that I didn't want to do in the first place."
This leads me to beleive that Bud approached them, said "here's our offer, turn it down and every distributor you use will stop carrying your product because they are in our pockets."........it pretty much really IS holding a gun to their heads.

You're probably talking about Elysian Brewing and one of the founders/owners Dick Cantwell. He was, I believe, out voted by the other owners to sell out to AB Inbev and has since resigned from the company.

http://www.brewbound.com/news/elysians-dick-cantwell-resigns-from-a-b-inbev

I was about to tell those crybabys to "Look it up yourself. It's not my responsibility to provide you with links."
But thankfully somebody had a clue as to what i was talking about.
Thanks for clarifying the sale.

This hardly proves your point.
1) They went out LOOKING to sell.
2) They were offered MORE money by private equity firms
3) FOUR out of FIVE owners voted to sell to AB-InBev anyway because they believed it was in the best long-term interest of the brewery due to their ability to increase production and distribution.

Yup, sounds like AB-InBev really forced him into it.

And yes, when you make outrageous claims in a debate, it's generally your burden to provide evidence of what your saying, instead of just telling vague half-remembered stories and expecting everyone else to just accept it as truth.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Oh....Did i say that?
Oh....that's right, I DIDN'T
Don't try to `put words into my mouth

You responded in support of a postline that has repeatedly conceded that there is nothing illegal, illogical, or unethical about what is being done, except that it is ABInbev doing it. So yeah, you pretty much did say it.

ir·ra·tion·al
i(r)ˈraSH(&#601nəl/
adjective

1. not logical or reasonable.

synonyms: unreasonable, illogical, groundless, baseless, unfounded, unjustifiable; More

 

[bob1852]

I was about to tell those crybabys to "Look it up yourself. It's not my responsibility to provide you with links."
But thankfully somebody had a clue as to what i was talking about.
Thanks for clarifying the sale.

As Calder mentions above, as several before him, AB is more concerned about profits vs quality beer. If you refuse to accept that as fact then by all means, keep drinking your Budweiser. Nobody is trying to stop you from it.
But for those whom preffer a company to actually offer something other than a light American lager on their beer menu beyond a light American lager mixed with imitation lime juice,( read actual quality beer ) don't assume they are being irrational for disliking a company whom buys out actual craft brewery to then insult them publicly. AB insulted homebrewers in a superbowl commercial i beleive just the year previous But `hey....go on and countinue to endlessly supply the company that mocks you and your trade with money from beer sales.

Wait, InBev only make light American lagers and fruit flavored lagers?

What about all those microbreweries they're buying up? They quit making BCBS and all those IPA's?

 

[Ace_Club]

Wait, InBev only make light American lagers and fruit flavored lagers?

What about all those microbreweries they're buying up? They quit making BCBS and all those IPA's?

They're sacrificing the quality of those beers and just concentrating on profit! I've noticed a significant decrease in quality in BCBS since AB took over. It is now one of the worst bourbon barrel stouts and the price has quadrupled from what it was before the takeover.

 

[bob1852]

They're sacrificing the quality of those beers and just concentrating on profit! I've noticed a significant decrease in quality in BCBS since AB took over. It is now one of the worst bourbon barrel stouts and the price has quadrupled from what it was before the takeover.

The placebo effect of EAC beer snobs is in full effect!

 

[Ace_Club]

The placebo effect of EAC beer snobs is in full effect!

Hey! No need to toss insults just because you choose to ignore the truth!

 

[cyanmonkey]

They're sacrificing the quality of those beers and just concentrating on profit! I've noticed a significant decrease in quality in BCBS since AB took over. It is now one of the worst bourbon barrel stouts and the price has quadrupled from what it was before the takeover.

I thought this year was fine. Craft beer is popular. Supply and demand in effect, not some grand conspiracy.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

It is now one of the worst bourbon barrel stouts and the price has quadrupled from what it was before the takeover.

Well, you are in luck! There is another brewery that has been making that stuff since 1957. Naturally brewed is their motto. They also distribute it in 1 gallon sizes for about $11.

 

[bob1852]

Hey! No need to toss insults just because you choose to ignore the truth!

The funny thing is, of course, that Bud, Bud Light, etc. are about the only beers that taste the same over and over and over....

Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is different this year than it was last year. That's just the nature of ag products that do vary year to year.

 

[Ace_Club]

I thought this year was fine. Craft beer is popular. Supply and demand in effect, not some grand conspiracy.

Brainwashed by the huge corporation already. SMH.

Well, you are in luck! There is another brewery that has been making that stuff since 1957. Naturally brewed is their motto. They also distribute it in 1 gallon sizes for about $11.

That's true now that AB has taken over.

The funny thing is, of course, that Bud, Bud Light, etc. are about the only beers that taste the same over and over and over....

Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is different this year than it was last year. That's just the nature of ag products that do vary year to year.

The thing is that Bud and Bud Light are amazing beers. American Lagers are amazingly hard to brew well. AB has done that and perfected it. Most people bash them because they don't have the skill set to brew anything as good. Oh, they'll poo poo that reasoning by saying "Why would I want to brew anything like that", but that's just a cover for not having the skills to do so. Pathetic.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is different this year than it was last year. That's just the nature of ag products that do vary year to year.

How can you be sure?

 

[bob1852]

How can you be sure?

I drink a lot of it, and unlike seasonal releases where it's not really possible to reliably say "this beer is different than a year ago" (even though it always is), you can taste differences over time.

Oh, and their website says so:

Brewing is as much art as science, and all beer specifications and raw materials are subject to change at our brewers' creative discretion.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I drink a lot of it, and unlike seasonal releases where it's not really possible to reliably say "this beer is different than a year ago" (even though it always is), you can taste differences over time.

Oh, and their website says so:

Always kills me when people compare a year old beer to one just released and complain that the fresh one tastes different.