A hello and some general questions!

[petebeer]

Hi everyone I just stumbled upon this forum so I thought I'd say hello and ask a few things, I hope this is the correct place.

I have come back to home brewing after a ten year break so I'm a little rusty on things. When I first brewed I always use a keg but was never completely happy with the results, so this time I have gone for bottling.
I'm not trying anything too ambitious brew wise just yet as I'm still feeling my way back in and also getting to grips with bottling.

Up to now I've brewed a couple of coopers lagers and a Muntons pale ale. All three have been drinkable but what has impressed me is the clarity of them! From a looks point of view they could be commercial, very clear indeed.

So my questions.

1: My initial Coopers lager fermented for about 7 days and I bottled when the SG remained 1.010 over three consecutive days, but it smelled and tasted of bananas when it was young! As its aged to beyond two months in the bottles that smell and taste has gone, what was going on there?

2: My pale ale was my best effort although a little hoppy for my taste, it was clear and held a good head through the full pint. compare that to the lagers which had an initial head which quickly went away and which were also flatter with less fizz. Clearly I don't want it too fizzy but where the ale was smooth the lager was a bit lifeless! The point being that I primed the bottles identically so what's going on there? Is there a point where the beer can be left too long before bottling or will it just sit safe in its sealed fermenter until I bottle it?

3: lastly (for now) all three brews were transferred to a new sealed fermenter after about 5-6 days which caused them to ferment further when they seemed to be slowing. This was done on the advice of the brew shop, what exactly am I doing here, is it secondary fermenting? I never did this when I brewed before but am I correct in thinking this is helping with the clarity of the beers?

Many thanks! Pete.

 

[RM-MN]

1. From my perspective, you bottled the beer before it was done fermenting and the taste/aroma you perceived was from incomplete fermentation but the fermentation completed in the bottles and took that taste/aroma away. Here's a nice article about the life cycle of the yeast and while it may happen just as it is written, in my experience the timeline is too short. My fermentation always takes longer. http://www.brewgeeks.com/the-life-cycle-of-yeast.html

2. Partial answer because I don't know about your lagers and the lack of head retention. Your ales can stay in the primary fermenter for quite some time. Eventually you may get yeast autolysis but that usually takes a long time. I've left an ale in the fermenter for 9 weeks and from what I've heard, that was well below what some have done. If you leave it too long you may have to add new yeast at bottling to get it to carbonate.

3. Don't listen to the advice from the LHBS because that advice is based on old information that has been found to be incorrect. Leaving your beer in the primary causes it to complete the ferment and the yeast to settle out just as fast as in secondary and perhaps arguably faster without the chance of oxidation or infection that moving it to secondary entails. Just by being a little careful in transferring the beer to the bottling bucket you will leave the yeast and trub behind.

 

[ncbrewer]

I can't add anything to RM-MN's post, but welcome to HBT. Glad you were able to get back into brewing.

 

[petebeer]

Thanks for the welcome and replies!

The yeast article is very interesting!

I did wonder about transferring the fermenting wort to another brew bin! It just seemed to me to be a step that introduced risk of infection or some other disaster. I have a brew on the go at the moment, about a week in, and I was thinking of transferring as the CO2 production through the airlock is at the point of slowing right down but I will leave it and monitor it to see what happens.

Just to clarify, if I leave it and check the SG in a few days and that SG proves to be stable, should I bottle to allow the beer to finish flocculation (right word?) in the bottle or give it more time undisturbed in the sealed bin?
Also with a view to carbonation/conditioning in the bottles, what method do you guys/gal's use? I have used priming drops primarily and also 3-4g brewing sugar to my 500ml bottles which produced good results with the ale but poorer results with the lager.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply!

 

[RM-MN]

It will depend on where you want the yeast to settle. I prefer to leave as much of the yeast in the fermenter as I can instead of bottling it sooner and getting a lot of yeast in the bottle. Your choice on that.

To get the most even carbonation it is recommended that you rack the beer to a bottling bucket and get the sugar mixed in there before bottling it. Dissolving the priming sugar in some boiling water (small amount) and then dumping it into the bottling bucket and racking the beer on top of it seems to be best practice but some people do prefer the priming drops or the sugar in the bottle methods. If you weigh the sugar and mix it into the bottling bucket you eliminate the possibility of double priming or forgetting to prime a bottle. (I'd probably do at least one of those each bottling session)

 

[petebeer]

That a method I've never heard of but will certainly try! It sounds the perfect way to do it to be honest.

Again, just to clarify.

Allow full fermentation of wort in sealed air locked bin
Leave well alone after stable SG to clear
Mix a batch of priming sugar (3oz for 5 UK Gal) in minimum amount of boiling water, cool and add to sterilised bottling bucket
Carefully drain beer into bottling bucket on top of priming sugar solution
Bottle and cap
Leave in warm place for a week or so
Leave to condition

 

[Calder]

Welcome back. I gave up for 9 years; when I came back everything had changed, lots more information, better ingredients, better understanding of how to make great beer, and a number of old traditions busted.

3 ozs for 5 UK gallons (6.2 US gallons) seems low. Not sure what you are brewing, but 5 might be more appropiate.

Probably not necessary, but I gently stir the beer and sugar in the bottling bucket to make sure it is mixed.

It can take a few weeks to get decent carbonation ..... for bigger beers, it can take longer.

 

[petebeer]

Yes!!! Things are vastly different nowadays and I must say for the better! Although I'm finding my feet with kits again the quality seems to be way better than I remember!

The brew I have on at the moment is a basic Australian lager made from a Coopers kit made up to the 23 litres as per the instructions. I'm not trying anything above a basic kit until I've done a few brews and got the basics right again! Eventually I'd like to get up to all grain brewing level.

Is there a preferred sugar to use for priming?

 

[RM-MN]

The easiest sugar for the yeast to consume is the simplest, corn sugar but table sugar will work fine too. When you rack your beer to the bottling bucket, make sure that the siphon tube goes all the way to the bottom plus a little so it will curl. This will swirl the beer to aid in the mixing and keep the end of the tube submerged to avoid oxidizing the beer.

 

[petebeer]

Thanks again RM-MN, I'll pick some up.

Does everyone agree 5oz would be a better dose for carbonating?

 

[RM-MN]

I'd suggest using a bottle priming calculator like this one. http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

You'll have to calculate the differences from metric to US measures with this calculator. You might find one that is in metric.

 

[petebeer]

Thanks!

23l = 6.07 US GALLONS
20 degrees centigrade
Carbonating like a German Pilsner

= 5.04 Oz of dextrose!

This would make sense of the moderately lifeless lager! I'm about 2/5 down on sugar!!

 

[Yooper]

To answer some of your questions, for #1, the taste of 'bananas' is most often from fermenting a bit too warm for the yeast strain you are using. It does depend on the yeast strain, but generally you want the fermenting beer to be under 20C. Since fermentation produces heat, it's helpful to have a 'stick on' thermometer so you can see the temperature of the beer.

I'm not a fan of Cooper's kits at all, but if you like the flavor of them and enjoy them, that's fine. The Cooper's yeast strains I've used tend to have an odd, sort of 'woody' flavor to them and I don't like that. I'm not fond of the Munton's strain either but I think it's better than the Cooper's strains. I much prefer Danstar/Fermentis yeast strains for dry yeast with the cleanest flavors.

 

[hanuswalrus]

Again, just to clarify.

Allow full fermentation of wort in sealed air locked bin
Leave well alone after stable SG to clear
Mix a batch of priming sugar (3oz for 5 UK Gal) in minimum amount of boiling water, cool and add to sterilised bottling bucket
Carefully drain beer into bottling bucket on top of priming sugar solution
Bottle and cap
Leave in warm place for a week or so
Leave to condition

Definitely use a priming sugar calculator like RM-MN suggests. Also, not quite clear on what you mean by "carefully drain beer into bottling bucket". Are you pouring it directly in to the bottling bucket, or using a siphon? I think just about everyone would recommend using an auto-siphon for the transferring/racking process. Draining it will cause oxidization, which leads to a cardboard-like taste in your finished beer.

 

[petebeer]

Yooper, I agree, it's just about drinkable but it's ok to practice with and get back into brewing as the kits are relatively cheap. The beer fermented at all sorts of temperatures to be honest, I couldn't tell you exactly what went on with it as the room is cooler at night than during the day. I pitched the dry yeast in at 21C and I'd say the beer would be +-2 degrees of this through the ferment.Can the yeast strains you mentioned be bought and substituted for the supplied ones?

Hanuswalrus, yes, kind of! My brew bins have taps so I just place an empty one below the full one and drain one to the other through a tube, I also only just open the top tap so the flow is calm and does not churn. Is that ok or should I look into an autosyphon?

If you could suggest some kits available in the UK please do!

The beers I'm most interested in emulating from a flavour point of view are:
Black sheep
Bombardier
Taylor's landlord
Taylor's golden best
Spitfire

And for lagers:
Krononbourg 1664
Beck's
Tiger

I'm not a massive fan of complex hoppy beers although I don't mind a speckled hen now and then!

 

[ncbrewer]

That a method I've never heard of but will certainly try! It sounds the perfect way to do it to be honest.

Again, just to clarify.

Allow full fermentation of wort in sealed air locked bin
Leave well alone after stable SG to clear
Mix a batch of priming sugar (3oz for 5 UK Gal) in minimum amount of boiling water, cool and add to sterilised bottling bucket
Carefully drain beer into bottling bucket on top of priming sugar solution
Bottle and cap
Leave in warm place for a week or so
Leave to condition

Here are my thoughts, subject to rebuttal by others:
Many brewers, including myself, leave the beer in the fermenter longer than just clearing time - more like 3 weeks. The thought is that leaving it on the yeast allows the yeast to clean up any off flavors - maybe not necessary if plenty of healthy yeast was pitched and temperatures were good. This seems to be a subject of much debate.

I'd probably use 5 oz of cane sugar, which has slightly more fermentables than corn sugar. But 5 oz of corn sugar is fine, too. Some brewers use published tables (http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/) to carbonate for the specific style, and some use a standard priming volume to suit their taste - your choice.

Three weeks at 70F is a common rule of thumb for conditioning. Then a week in the fridge, (but I only leave mine for 2 days).

 

[RM-MN]

Yooper, I agree, it's just about drinkable but it's ok to practice with and get back into brewing as the kits are relatively cheap. The beer fermented at all sorts of temperatures to be honest, I couldn't tell you exactly what went on with it as the room is cooler at night than during the day. I pitched the dry yeast in at 21C and I'd say the beer would be +-2 degrees of this through the ferment.Can the yeast strains you mentioned be bought and substituted for the supplied ones?

Hanuswalrus, yes, kind of! My brew bins have taps so I just place an empty one below the full one and drain one to the other through a tube, I also only just open the top tap so the flow is calm and does not churn. Is that ok or should I look into an autosyphon?

If you could suggest some kits available in the UK please do!

The beers I'm most interested in emulating from a flavour point of view are:
Black sheep
Bombardier
Taylor's landlord
Taylor's golden best
Spitfire

And for lagers:
Krononbourg 1664
Beck's
Tiger

I'm not a massive fan of complex hoppy beers although I don't mind a speckled hen now and then!

Through a tube is the critical part. You want to transfer the wort without splashing as that would introduce oxygen. That added oxygen will cause your beer to stale. I don't like the taste or smell of stale beer.

 

[hanuswalrus]

Hanuswalrus, yes, kind of! My brew bins have taps so I just place an empty one below the full one and drain one to the other through a tube, I also only just open the top tap so the flow is calm and does not churn. Is that ok or should I look into an autosyphon?!

You might be alright if there's no churning going on. IMO, I would still prefer an auto-siphon, though. They're only about $10 here in the states and very easy to use

 

[petebeer]

Thanks! I'll look into getting a siphon, I can see the sense in racking the wort from above the yeast bed as opposed to the tap which will be just above the yeast.

 

[ncbrewer]

You might be alright if there's no churning going on. IMO, I would still prefer an auto-siphon, though. They're only about $10 here in the states and very easy to use

I use an auto siphon, too, but lots of brewers use a spigot successfully. I think it's personal preference.