A Genuine Viewpoint Opposing LODO As Unsubstantiated

[divrack]

Hey yes, since I’ve seen and digested every post on this thread, I’m now a LODO expert, you can even see that I came up with a revolutionary albeit untested LODO practice. I have knowledge of a yeast oxygen scavenging technique that was in a thread that got me to thinking a about this whole thing. I haven’t done it before, but apparently you just chuck the yeast into 78 degree water and it eats up all the O2

Without sugar?

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Without sugar?

I think so. Let me go check the thread.

So parrently you need a tiny bit of Dextrose and a couple salts. http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/yeast-deoxygenation-method/

 

[cyberbackpacker]

@cyberbackpacker, please parse that body of work to include only the references that include the LODO counter-discussion i.e. those references that say that LODO sucks. Those are the only articles that I want to read thank you.

Don't know if I am being trolled or not, but I am trying to be helpful to those who may be truly interested.

I included every link and resource to show there is a ton out there. Don't care for all of them? Fine, start with Kunze and Narziss... the authors/scientists who, again, literally, wrote the textbooks that are used worldwide in brewing science programs for the better part of 30 years.

 

[dmtaylor]

You are not being trolled. You've just stumbled into the Drunken Ramblings and Mindless Mumbling forum where a helpful attitude is unnecessary.

 

[Bilsch]

So searching around the interwebs a bit, I found that removing dissolved oxygen by boiling isn’t terribly effective. All the sciency guys say you should bubble argon or nitrogen through the water to get levels lower than .2PPM. If it was me I would hook up a Sanke keg to nitrogen and a spunding valve, then purge my HLT with CO2, bottom fill. Heat my liquor, purge my grain and mash tun, bottom fill my mash tun, purge my boil kettle, bottom fill and then your home free. Easy peasy and no sulfates.

Damn man.. your thinking exactly like an experienced lodo brewer!! You know, the engineering type that's coming up with cutting edge solutions. I expect to see you in the other forum soon.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Don't know if I am being trolled or not, but I am trying to be helpful to those who may be truly interested.

I included every link and resource to show there is a ton out there. Don't care for all of them? Fine, start with Kunze and Narziss... the authors/scientists who, again, literally, wrote the textbooks that are used worldwide in brewing science programs for the better part of 30 years.

I wasn’t trolling, but I wasn’t really being serious either.

 

[Queequeg]

I think the LODO thing is interesting and look forward to whatever happens. I don’t really have a dog in the fight.

There is one thing about LODO claims I don’t understand and maybe someone can explain it.

In another forum I was in a thread on how to make Hefeweizen... I commented that I was never able to get the orange hue and malty taste of a Paulaner etc., and was told that it’s because those are all LODO breweries.

Hefeweizen has been around a long time. Were those ancient breweries LODO? If so how did they do it with primitive gear? If it’s only possible with more modern gear, then at some point there had to be a switch from lesser beer to better beer. Seems like it would be dramatic, but we don’t talk about it.

In the end I’ll do what it takes to make better beer. Someone, please help me make a perfect Hefeweizen!

This is an extremely important point, I think there is this idea that all German breweries are LODO. The reality is LODO is prohibitively expensive on commerical scale for all but the biggest breweries. I suspect of the 300 or so Franconian microbreweries none are LODO.

So when people say LODO is required to make great beer, that is plainly false. What they actually mean is you can't emulate certain German breweries without it.

I created a thread it the LODO forum asking which breweries actually have LODO, so I could go and taste on my next visit to Germany which will likely be the Munich area.

No one replied, which suggests no one actually knows, or at least not many people.

Now none of this doesn't mean LODO doesn't produce better beer, rather that is not necessary to produce great beer nor is it indicative of authenticity.

 

[Queequeg]

I think it's also important to address the " you haven't tried LODO" arguement.

This is essentially credentialism, which is odious because it allows LODO proponents to dismiss criticism without need to address the critique itself.

Also because of confirmatory bias especially associated with sensory analysis simply saying you can notice the difference doesn't qualify it as actually making a difference. That needs to be establish through blind taste tests and analysis by HPLC. Otherwise is unscientific and is used simply to confirm bias.

 

[NeoBrew]

Two points:

1. Taste preference is inherently a matter of individual perspective. It is nearly impossible to tell someone what they should or should not like.

2. All of this other stuff is science. It's not a matter of conjecture, there are no 'opinions' to scientific facts. (How about that for throwing a grenade in the fox hole?)

This is not to say that people can shoot for differing goals to achieve the taste they want in a beer. LODO would be appropriate for some purposes, and not others.

 

[Murphys_Law]

I’ve been thinking about all the arguments re LODO and came to the conclusion that I really don’t care how you brew your damn beer!

Man, you could steal a fireman’s boot from the street corner this Labor Day weekend and ferment in that for all I care! If you say it works for you and you like that crap then...!

[emoji1]

 

[bob1852]

How many LODO brewers in this thread measure DO at all stages through the process?

 

[arturo7]

Man, you could steal a fireman’s boot from the street corner this Labor Day weekend and ferment in that for all I care! If you say it works for you and you like that crap then...!

[emoji1]

I love boot beer!

I usually use a steel-toed work boot for fermentation, but the idea of a fireman’s boot is intriguing. You could make one helluva rauchbier!

 

[Murphys_Law]

I love boot beer!

I usually use a steel-toed work boot for fermentation, but the idea of a fireman’s boot is intriguing. You could make one helluva rauchbier!

Steal-toe is so much better for LODO! If you use a copper-toe boot it’s frowned upon! [emoji1]

 

[ba-brewer]

Steal-toe is so much better for LODO! If you use a copper-toe boot it’s frowned upon! [emoji1]

Seem like boots are better suited for open fermentation, might just give your lambic or saison a little extra kick.

 

[Bilsch]

Yummy.. firemans boot IPA. I think any one of my local craft breweries could make that and people here would drink it.

 

[Bassman2003]

This is an extremely important point, I think there is this idea that all German breweries are LODO. The reality is LODO is prohibitively expensive on commerical scale for all but the biggest breweries. I suspect of the 300 or so Franconian microbreweries none are LODO.

So when people say LODO is required to make great beer, that is plainly false. What they actually mean is you can't emulate certain German breweries without it.

I created a thread it the LODO forum asking which breweries actually have LODO, so I could go and taste on my next visit to Germany which will likely be the Munich area.

No one replied, which suggests no one actually knows, or at least not many people.

Now none of this doesn't mean LODO doesn't produce better beer, rather that is not necessary to produce great beer nor is it indicative of authenticity.

I think about this as well but you can count on all of the breweries in Germany to be LODO on the cold side. It is is hot side that is more expensive. My distant cousins live in Oberailsfeld and they/we are friends with the brewer in the small town for Held Brau. I have been trying to get in the brewery for a tour but that area has been off limits for four visits now! I would love to see how they are trained and watch their process. The helles they make is quite awesome. It is my assertion that German brewers are trained to do a lot of things as 'standard practice' that might not be in place in other parts of the world.

In general, I would say all of the major Munich breweries have the funds to go big against oxygen. I read somewhere that the entire Augustiner brewing process is under a blanket of nitrogen. Sounds very German to me!

My favorites in the Munich area are Augustiner, Ayinger and Weihenstephaner out towards the airport in Freising.

 

[Queequeg]

I think about this as well but you can count on all of the breweries in Germany to be LODO on the cold side. It is is hot side that is more expensive. My distant cousins live in Oberailsfeld and they/we are friends with the brewer in the small town for Held Brau. I have been trying to get in the brewery for a tour but that area has been off limits for four visits now! I would love to see how they are trained and watch their process. The helles they make is quite awesome. It is my assertion that German brewers are trained to do a lot of things as 'standard practice' that might not be in place in other parts of the world.

In general, I would say all of the major Munich breweries have the funds to go big against oxygen. I read somewhere that the entire Augustiner brewing process is under a blanket of nitrogen. Sounds very German to me!

My favorites in the Munich area are Augustiner, Ayinger and Weihenstephaner out towards the airport in Freising.

LODO cold side it not really the controversial part though. I think all breweries realise this.

What you say about Munich breweries is probably true, but I when I drink a helles from Fassla in Bamberg I don't think " this is oxidized" and I seriously doubt Fassla is LODO on the hot side.

 

[schematix]

"Oxidized" is a cold side flavor. No matter how the hot side was handled this is an easy flavor to pick up if you know what it is.

In simplified terms, oxidation on the hot side is more easily detected by a lack of certain flavors (fresh grain flavor as others have called them) that leads to an overall dullness.

 

[lump42]

I think about this as well but you can count on all of the breweries in Germany to be LODO on the cold side.

LODO on cold side only is usually referred to as "proper commercial packaging" and the commercial breweries I've toured in the states, big and small, were concerned about that. It's why beer guns and counter pressure fillers are a thing in the homebrew world.

It's the hot side oxidation that is causing the debate now a days.

 

[Bassman2003]

LODO cold side it not really the controversial part though. I think all breweries realise this.

What you say about Munich breweries is probably true, but I when I drink a helles from Fassla in Bamberg I don't think " this is oxidized" and I seriously doubt Fassla is LODO on the hot side.

I will try to contact the brewer at the small brewery and ask him about how they treat their brewing water. Specifically if they try to limit or eliminate oxygen before brewing. He might tell me that! But it will be though translation so we will see what we get.

 

[Bassman2003]

LODO on cold side only is usually referred to as "proper commercial packaging" and the commercial breweries I've toured in the states, big and small, were concerned about that. It's why beer guns and counter pressure fillers are a thing in the homebrew world.

It's the hot side oxidation that is causing the debate now a days.

True but I was referring to the use of Speise and natural carbonation where many other breweries around the world have good packaging practice but with forced, bottled CO2.

 

[Queequeg]

It will be interesting to see

 

[lump42]

True but I was referring to the use of Speise and natural carbonation where many other breweries around the world have good packaging practice but with forced, bottled CO2.

Speisse and natural carbonation is more of a restriction of the revised beer purity laws. They're not allowed to use exogenous CO2, only malt, water, hops, and yeast.

 

[Bilsch]

This is an extremely important point, I think there is this idea that all German breweries are LODO. The reality is LODO is prohibitively expensive on commerical scale for all but the biggest breweries. I suspect of the 300 or so Franconian microbreweries none are LODO.

What inside information do you have to make that assertion? I've been going to Germany for the last 20 years and my experience is that some do and some don't and it's easy to taste.

As for being prohibitively expensive that's also just your unsubstantiated opinion. Column degassers and vormashers are not terribly expensive and the rest depends on the setup of the brewery in question. Protecting the beer from hotside oxidation is not new technology or controversial especially in Germany.

 

[hopjuice_71]

What inside information do you have to make that assertion? I've been going to Germany for the last 20 years and my experience is that some do and some don't and It's easy to taste.

As for being prohibitively expensive that's also just your unsubstantiated opinion. Column degassers and vormashers are not terribly expensive and the rest is depends on the setup of the brewery in question. Protecting the beer from hotside oxygenation is not new technology or controversial especially in Germany.

Vormasher.. ..now what sounds like an awesome piece of equipment that we all need. Does it kill zombies as well?

Sorry, couldn't help it.

 

[passedpawn]

Vormasher.. ..now what sounds like an awesome piece of equipment that we all need. Does it kill zombies as well?

Sorry, couldn't help it.

No idea what that is, but here's the fermentors from one of my trips to Dusseldorf. Altbier! Low tech, and not so much lodo...

 

[arturo7]

Vormasher

good name for a metal band

 

[Bilsch]

Vormasher

good name for a metal band

Definitely.

What it does is mix the milled grain with water while excluding air and then drop that slurry to the mashtun.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

When I was in my early twenties I used to love watching the 2 woodworking shows that were on PBS on Saturday or Sunday, I can’t remember which day. There was The Woodwrights Shop and The New Yankee Workshop. I really enjoyed them both. Norm had every power wood working tool imaginable and made exquisitely precise furniture. Real quality and beauty. Conversely, Roy Underhill had every woodworking hand tool known to man and while his work was not even close in it’s precision, it was elegant in a way that I found to rival Norm’s stuff in beauty. So one day Roy made a crack at Norm’s shop, mocking “the most important safety item, safety glasses”. So the next week on New Yankee, Norm was visibly upset and had a special little talk before his show on safety and how it’s not a joke. Consequently, and I’m not sure it was a coincidence, The Woodwrights Shop was off the air for at least a couple weeks.

So what does this have to do with LODO? LODO appears to have have the backing of science and industry as well as an air of the future of home brewing. Conversely, bottling beer, open transferring and not considering HSA seem to me more like the old way. Like Roy, I think it’s funny the extent people go to to make commercial grade Norm Abrahms beer in their garage, when I think that my Roy Underhill beer is a superior product if only because it is more like the old ways.

Also, like the little spat that I perceived Norm and Roy had, I think that the homebrew community acknowledges that LODO at least sounds good and elitists have a way of being really loud and convincing. Personally, I’d be more likely convinced to try lambic open fermentation then to do LODO. Roy beer is just better beer than Norm beer and I fully expect to have my broadcast shut down for saying so.

 

[pvpeacock]

What does Lodo and the Lord of the Rings have to do with beer?