Those are definitely good general descriptions of the effects based on my experience. I feel like most beers do best with little to no sulfate (I do like a little sulfate (20-30 mg/L) in a saison, for example), and chloride in the 50-90ish range, but anything American where you want to highlight the hops I think a hard / high sulfate water is required, especially if you want it to taste like your favorite commercial IPA/DIPA/etc. EDIT: Also, I like a bit (usually less than 50 mg/L) of sulfate for high OG/FG beers like Russian Imperial Stouts or Barleywines to help a little bit with the sweetness balance.
A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer
- Thread starter Yooper
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
- Status
Those are definitely good general descriptions of the effects based on my experience. I feel like most beers do best with little to no sulfate (I do like a little sulfate (20-30 mg/L) in a saison, for example), and chloride in the 50-90ish range, but anything American where you want to highlight the hops I think a hard / high sulfate water is required, especially if you want it to taste like your favorite commercial IPA/DIPA/etc. EDIT: Also, I like a bit (usually less than 50 mg/L) of sulfate for high OG/FG beers like Russian Imperial Stouts or Barleywines to help a little bit with the sweetness balance.
I am reminded of a recent major-media article that points out that some people are just more sensitive to bitterness and may not prefer it. Foods like coffee, grapefruit, and brussel sprouts are typically categorized as bitter. Obviously, hops add bittering to beer. Along with that, sulfate helps dry the finish of beer and therefore helps accentuate the presentation of bittering on the palate. I've also read scientific journal articles that suggest that there is some sort of synergistic effect between iso-alpha acids and sulfate that enhances bitterness perception.
From my recollection of AJ's writings, I don't believe that he produces or prefers any bitter beers and he may be one of those people that have that aversion to bitterness. The suggestion that sulfate renders hop bitterness rougher or harsher does not agree with my perceptions. In the right beer and at the right concentration, sulfate can be an asset to overall beer flavor perceptions. Even Dr. Narziss confirms that brewers like Pilsner Urquell add a minor amount of gypsum to their brewing water to enhance the flavor and perceptions.
Take Dr. Chloride's recommendation with a grain of salt.
From my recollection of AJ's writings, I don't believe that he produces or prefers any bitter beers and he may be one of those people that have that aversion to bitterness. The suggestion that sulfate renders hop bitterness rougher or harsher does not agree with my perceptions. In the right beer and at the right concentration, sulfate can be an asset to overall beer flavor perceptions. Even Dr. Narziss confirms that brewers like Pilsner Urquell add a minor amount of gypsum to their brewing water to enhance the flavor and perceptions.
Take Dr. Chloride's recommendation with a grain of salt.
That's clearly the mechanism as there isn't any reaction taking place when you add sulfate to cold beer yet the change in perception of hops is there when one does this. Same as with chloride.
Not so. I do like bitter beers but the bitterness must be fine i.e. the kind you get from low alpha noble hops and brewed sans sulfate or with very low levels of sulfate. But I certainly do not like beers that have very high levels of rough, harsh bitterness. They are, to me, very one dimensional.
But it does with afr0byte's[/QUOTE]
If you are in the group that likes the effects of sulfate on beer. That would seem to be a larger group than the group that does not like sulfate but the latter group is not small.
I may be confusing Narziß with Kunze but I remember that one of them in his book (on if his books) says that it is preferable to add calcium salts to beer via the chloride rather than the sulfate where possible citing this roughening.
Too bad about PU. It sure ain't what it used to be! Among other things the bittering is down to about 35 from the 45 they used to run when I started drinking it. Now that was an example of fine bittering. Also clearly gone (because I don't see how they could compete if they made it the way the used to) is fermentation in wooden fermenters and 3 months lagering in wooden casks.
Yes, do, but be sure the salt is a chloride and not a sulfate!
Really the bottom line here is that personal taste is as important here as it is in any other area of cooking (or, indeed, in any endeavor where subjective judgements are employed). I have some pretty strong views about the relative merits of JSB re heavy metal, etc. I am well aware that de gustibus non est disputandem and always try to mention that personal taste is a factor whenever I make statements about practices the apparent worth of which may be colored by such tastes. Nevertheless I am sure my prejudices do shine through from time to time. The best I can do is admit that I am aware of them.
VictorBrew
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2014
- Messages
- 51
- Reaction score
- 11
Ramping up on the vastly differing opinions on this topic can be mind boggling, but at the end of the day I have learned enough to understand the guiding principals. It also makes since to measure your pH and see how close those guiding principles are getting you. I simply need specific guidance on the physical activity in taking the actual sample from the mash to ensure that I am getting a representative sample. I batch sparge in a simple cooler, so should I simply varlouf (a few quarts) 5-10 minutes after dough-in and take the sample from the spigot? Should I just dip a cup into the middle of mash and strain out the grain? I am clear on the room temp measurement and plan on using a meter, I just simply need some help on the proper or recommended mechanics to take the sample.
Assuming that the mash is well mixed, and you certainly want it to be, then it really doesn't much matter how you get the sample. Simply dipping into the mash making sure you pick up plenty of liquid and cooling to room temperature will do. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ph-meter-calibration-302256/ for tips on meter use.
So, I've been following this thread for a while now and have started using this method with good success so far. I still don't have a ph meter but will be ordering one soon.
I just set up my new grain crusher and plan to change my mash technique a bit and Id like to get an opinion on if I've got the right idea.
I will be batch sparging in a 15 gallon cooler and occasionally no sparging in the same vessel. My tap water looks like this:
Ca 1.8
Mg 0.1
Na 4.8
S04 0.6
Cl 2.5
HCO3 4.9
I will be only mashing my base malts so until I get my ph meter should I
A) stick to the recommended mineral and acid malt additions for different styles in the mash
Or
B) use baseline for all styles since the dark grains won't contribute to the mash ph
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
I just set up my new grain crusher and plan to change my mash technique a bit and Id like to get an opinion on if I've got the right idea.
I will be batch sparging in a 15 gallon cooler and occasionally no sparging in the same vessel. My tap water looks like this:
Ca 1.8
Mg 0.1
Na 4.8
S04 0.6
Cl 2.5
HCO3 4.9
I will be only mashing my base malts so until I get my ph meter should I
A) stick to the recommended mineral and acid malt additions for different styles in the mash
Or
B) use baseline for all styles since the dark grains won't contribute to the mash ph
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Wow, pretty much RO-quality water. The Primer recommendations will fit well. You mention reserving the dark grains and that is a good idea to protect the mash pH from dropping too low. However, it does not protect the kettle wort pH from dropping too low. That low kettle wort pH may be OK in some dark styles, but it is generally not ideal. Adding the proper amount of alkalinity to the mash and mashing all the grist together can still be a better way to go.
Yes I live in British Columbia right near the border with Washington state. Our tap water is pretty fantastic. I was thinking of only mashing the base malts for the purpose of flavor. I'm not a fan of overly roasted dark beers and astringency. I did forget about the kettle ph though.
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Ok.. going all the way back to page one and the recommendations for RO water...
If I brew 2.5 gallon batches, do I simply divide all the measurements by 2 since they are based on 5 gallons?
I know beer recipes are 1/1, which always makes the math so simple!!!... but I'm not sure if its the same for adding or taking away from the water...
THanks!
If I brew 2.5 gallon batches, do I simply divide all the measurements by 2 since they are based on 5 gallons?
I know beer recipes are 1/1, which always makes the math so simple!!!... but I'm not sure if its the same for adding or taking away from the water...
THanks!
It's not really a question of batch size. The recommendation is for amount of water used. So, a 2.5 gallon batch for me uses about 5 gallons of water, I go ahead and treat 5 gallons of RO water with the recommendations on page one.
I would imagine that if someone was to do a 5 gallon batch they would be treating closer to 10 gallons of water and scaling the additions accordingly.
I would imagine that if someone was to do a 5 gallon batch they would be treating closer to 10 gallons of water and scaling the additions accordingly.
BHowe
Well-Known Member
I've been brewing my light colored hoppy beers with these guild lines for the better part of year now. I still have not bit the bullet to purchase a pH meter at this point.
I would like to start utilizing 100% RO water for my stouts and porters moving forward, however I want to keep the salt additions and overall complexity of my brew day in line with what has been working with my hoppy beers.
Does anyone have a general guild line of what sort of salts/minerals should be added to keep a beer with all of the dark grains in range? Should I still utilize a certain percentage of my tap water in order to include some amount of minerals?
I would like to start utilizing 100% RO water for my stouts and porters moving forward, however I want to keep the salt additions and overall complexity of my brew day in line with what has been working with my hoppy beers.
Does anyone have a general guild line of what sort of salts/minerals should be added to keep a beer with all of the dark grains in range? Should I still utilize a certain percentage of my tap water in order to include some amount of minerals?
For beers with roasted malt like stouts and porters, you would want to add calcium chloride and skip the sauermalz.
The roasted malt will lower the ph of your water. The calcium chloride will bring it back up. This is using RO water. You would need to get a water report to see what the pH of your tap water is. The water primer additions may be way off from what your tap water needs.
Calcium chloride will lower pH if not by much so if using hard water (lots of calcium one should back off on the sauermalz some).
This is always good advice (though you really don't much care about the water's pH).
It assumes either that your water is quite low in minerals or that you have diluted it with RO/DI to the point where it is.
Oh shot, you're right. I was thinking calcium carbonate for some reason.
So if we follow the primer, with a stout the roasted malt will lower the ph of the water and then the primer says to add only calcium chloride. Wouldn't that bring the ph even lower and out of line?
BHowe
Well-Known Member
My concern is using 100% RO that there will not be enough minerals present even with the primer additions of CaCl2 for a stout.
Personally and I think historically, stout porters were brewered with harder water. As long as your tap isn't full of chloromines and heavy metals, you may as well use it (as long as you have tested it). You don't want to remove a lot of hardness / alkalinity just to add it back later.
Yes, if you use enough highly colored malt in low alkalinity (0 for RO) water you will eventually get to the point where the pH will go below the recommended range and more calcium can make this worse. The answer to that situation is to use less dark malt/roas barley or to add alkalinity. Adding alkalinity takes you out of the KISS range for which the Primer is designed. You cannot rely on the Primer to cover all brewing situations.
Having said that I'll note that one can do many stouts without additional alkalinity. As a general observation: if the dark malts are under 20% of the grist mash pH's should be OK (unless enough calcium has been dumped in to push the pH down 0.1 or so). Now the possibility exists of a better stout with additional alkalinity but the Primer only promises a good beer in most cases - not the best beer always.
Having said that I'll note that one can do many stouts without additional alkalinity. As a general observation: if the dark malts are under 20% of the grist mash pH's should be OK (unless enough calcium has been dumped in to push the pH down 0.1 or so). Now the possibility exists of a better stout with additional alkalinity but the Primer only promises a good beer in most cases - not the best beer always.
BHowe
Well-Known Member
AJ,
Just to confirm, I should still be good utilizing the primer guidelines for a stout with 100% RO if my dark roasted grains are in check?
I have had my water tested and its hard/super high in soldium. It makes good dark beers, but looking to try something else.
Just to confirm, I should still be good utilizing the primer guidelines for a stout with 100% RO if my dark roasted grains are in check?
I have had my water tested and its hard/super high in soldium. It makes good dark beers, but looking to try something else.
Yes.
Dark beers are really tough in this regard because of the variety of colored malts that can be used. Colored beers are where a pH meter really becomes valuable. One possible approach if mash pH starts to get low is to blend some of the original source water in with the RO e.g. if the source water has alkalinity of 200 using 1 part of that with 1 part RO water gives a mix with alkalinity 100. This is, of course, getting beyond the Primer a bit.
brick_haus
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2012
- Messages
- 1,055
- Reaction score
- 299
There is so much info on the internet, and I know it's all true, but I'm trying to adjust my water for an upcoming brew. The "internet" says that calcium chloride is anywhere fron 3.5-4.8 grams per level teaspoon.
I use a calibrated balance with a resolution of .01g to weigh and I get exactly 6 grams per level teaspoon. I also get 3 grams per teaspoon for gypsum.
Now, to brew this upcoming minerally beer, according to this post (page 1), I will be adding 1.2 grams per gallon of gypsum (doubling the additions as per the OP) and 2.4 grams per gallon calcium chloride.
With this addition to my RO water, according to Bru'n Water, that puts me at:
Calcium 247ppm
Gypsum 178ppm
Chloride 310!!!
Is that the proper additions or am I doing something wrong? Seems a little excessive?
I use a calibrated balance with a resolution of .01g to weigh and I get exactly 6 grams per level teaspoon. I also get 3 grams per teaspoon for gypsum.
Now, to brew this upcoming minerally beer, according to this post (page 1), I will be adding 1.2 grams per gallon of gypsum (doubling the additions as per the OP) and 2.4 grams per gallon calcium chloride.
With this addition to my RO water, according to Bru'n Water, that puts me at:
Calcium 247ppm
Gypsum 178ppm
Chloride 310!!!
Is that the proper additions or am I doing something wrong? Seems a little excessive?
Most sources say 'about 5 grams' or words to that effect. The key word is 'about'. If you have a balance or other accurate scale, use it. The Primer ought to say that.
A perhaps even bigger issue with calcium chloride is water of hydration. You need to know what that is in order to determine how much calcium chloride to weigh out. The information at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/measuring-calcium-chloride-501377/ describes a method whereby you dissolve a few tbsp of calcium chloride in a couple of hundred mL of water, measure the SG and determine the amount of calcium chloride per mL from the SG. The math is in that post and is not difficult but it probably violates the KISS principal on which the primer is based.
Seems a lot excessive to me but you are shooting for a minerally beer. The actual primer guidance would be for two tsp for 5 gal which ought to work out to 2 grams/gal and if it is the dihydrate you'd have more like 251 mg/L chloride which still is, IMO, a lot.
Were I to do this beer I'd use the nominal guidelines and then experiment with adding minerals for taste in the glass. The results of those taste tests would then guide the mineral additions for subsequent brews.
BHowe
Well-Known Member
AJ, thanks for all of your help with this.
The KISS philosophy and methodology is what made me comfortable diving into water (see what I did there) adjustments.
I'm sure I will eventually migrate to something more complex, but this has been a great gateway!
I appreciate it!
The KISS philosophy and methodology is what made me comfortable diving into water (see what I did there) adjustments.
I'm sure I will eventually migrate to something more complex, but this has been a great gateway!
I appreciate it!
brick_haus
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2012
- Messages
- 1,055
- Reaction score
- 299
Thanks for your help AJ. Between you, MB and JP, I have gathered enough information to formulate a plan. I've been trying to pound this water chemistry stuff into my head for several months now and I think I have finally turned the corner and think that I have a basic understanding!
We certainly have a trove of resources available to us. What a great time to be part of this hobby!
Now to continue the fun part, ExBEERementation.
We certainly have a trove of resources available to us. What a great time to be part of this hobby!
Now to continue the fun part, ExBEERementation.
I would very much like to start using the guidelines of this primer in my next brew.
I have however a problem,which in turn presents another problem.
The only "acid" I can readly get is poedered citric acid.
So,could anyone please help me out by telling me how much citric acid I would need to use in order to substitute for the saurmalz/acidulated malt?
Cheers in advance
I have however a problem,which in turn presents another problem.
The only "acid" I can readly get is poedered citric acid.
So,could anyone please help me out by telling me how much citric acid I would need to use in order to substitute for the saurmalz/acidulated malt?
Cheers in advance
We have to make approximations on top of approximations here but each killogram of Weyermanns sauermalz delivers 333 mEq protons to a mash at nominal (5.4) pH. At that pH each mol of citric acid delivers 1899 mEq protons so, per killogram of sauermalz you would need about 333/1899 = .175 mmol of citric acid. As its molecular weight is 192.13 gram/mole that is .175*192.13 = 33.62 grams citric acid approximately equivalent to 1 kg sauermalz. Thus, if you are mashing 10 kg malt and want to use the the equivalent of 2% sauermalz (which would be 0.2 kg) you would use 0.2*33.62 = 6.74 grams of citric acid powder.
If you are using RO or distilled water as recommended in this thread, citric acid is a viable option for brewing use. The amount of acid needed is likely to be below its taste threshold and the beer should be fine.
Thank you very much indeed ajdelange.
So,in a way that even I can figure out,for every 1kg of malt in the mash(assuming 2%saurmalz) I will need 0.674gr of citric acid.
And I can just multiply this number by the amount of kg in the mash,right?
Oh,and yes,I will be using all RO water.
So,in a way that even I can figure out,for every 1kg of malt in the mash(assuming 2%saurmalz) I will need 0.674gr of citric acid.
And I can just multiply this number by the amount of kg in the mash,right?
Oh,and yes,I will be using all RO water.
Yes.
AJ, Thank you. I read all 99 pages of the Primer and it was extremely enlightening. All the talk of RA and classic profiles made the topic of water chemistry very unapproachable. After learning about mash ph, calcium, chloride and sulfate from your posts, I finally understand enough to build up from RO. I brewed an IPA last weekend with modest additions. I have a good feeling about it.
If you are going to make it out to NHC in San Diego this year please let me know where I can find you so I can thank you in person.
Cheers
If you are going to make it out to NHC in San Diego this year please let me know where I can find you so I can thank you in person.
Cheers
Say I use a total of 10 gal of RO water to make a batch, and for arguments sake I will use 5 gal for mash and 5 gal for sparge. Do I only need to treat the 5 gal for the mash and then just sparge with the untreated RO? So as an example, for an IPA it would be 1tsp Cal Chlo & 1tsp Gypsum (& Sauermalz) added to 5 gal, then just sparge with the remaining water untreated? Or do I need to treat the 5 gal of sparge water in the same way aswell?
The intention was that you would treat the entire volume per the recommendations but you could treat only half and then sparge with RO. The mineral content of the mash water (and the sauermalz) will get you approximately the right mash pH. Clearly, if you then go on to sparge with RO water the mineral concentrations in the wort and beer will be somewhat reduced (note that I do not say halved because the malt contains minerals) relative to what they would be if the sparge water were treated the same as the mash water and that may or may not make a noticeable difference in the finished beer. To know you will have to try it both ways.
Great, thanks AJ.
Baja_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Putting this on my "to read" list. My house water is terrible and I plan in using distilled when I start brewing in the next month or so.
The last few batches I've made have been amazing. This approach works.
dragonfire540
Well-Known Member
Palmer talked about mineral additions to spare and said it didn't matter as much. If you have really high alkalinity then perhaps you might add acid to it but that would be it.
PugDogIsAngry
Member
AJ, to verify I have a correct understanding of the baseline water treatment, I should make the following additions to 100% use of RO or DI water for the following BIAB recipe.
Grist
8 lb 2 row
8 oz caramel 10
7.75 gal mash water-no sparge
ADD:
7.7 gm calcium chloride (1 gr per gal of water)
2.7 oz sauermalz (2% of 136 oz grist)
Optional addition to baseline of 6 gr of gypsum (.8 gr per gal) for a pale ale.
Also, should I avoid any sauermalz addition for a recipe like the following due to the amount of roasted malt in the recipe?
GRIST
8 lb 2 row
8 oz chocolate malt
8 oz roasted barley (Briess)
8 oz C-60
Thanks for your contribution to this subject. It has really helped to clear up my confusion on water chemistry.
Grist
8 lb 2 row
8 oz caramel 10
7.75 gal mash water-no sparge
ADD:
7.7 gm calcium chloride (1 gr per gal of water)
2.7 oz sauermalz (2% of 136 oz grist)
Optional addition to baseline of 6 gr of gypsum (.8 gr per gal) for a pale ale.
Also, should I avoid any sauermalz addition for a recipe like the following due to the amount of roasted malt in the recipe?
GRIST
8 lb 2 row
8 oz chocolate malt
8 oz roasted barley (Briess)
8 oz C-60
Thanks for your contribution to this subject. It has really helped to clear up my confusion on water chemistry.
- Status
