A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[ajdelange]

If you know you like the effects of sulfate then its OK but I always advocate starting with a much lower amount of sulfate and working your way up in subsequent batches.

Try to put the chloride:sulfate ratio concept out of your head. The proper amount of chloride and the proper amount of sulfate for the beer you like best are independent variables. Their ratio will fall where it may depending on the beer and your palate.

 

[ideal2545]

Hi,

So i'm getting ready to brew a pale ale, but I'm having a hard time understanding the primer section a bit. I came accross this post:


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"Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:


Hefeweizen: For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3% (you can make great Hefe with soft water too).

Porter: For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

Light Ale: For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

IPA: For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

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When I read "Light Ale" - Would that mean, 1 tsp gypsum, 1tsp calcum chloride and 2% sauermalz?

Or would it be: 2 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate, 1tsp gypsum and Add 2% sauermalz to the grist ? IM not sure if the 'deviations from baseline mean' ... 'in addition too' or that they stand on their own.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[jdauria]

So if I am reading primer right, for a Dortmunder export, I would be looking at 4 tsp Calcium Chloride and 2 gypsum plus 2% of the grist bill in acid malt?

Throwing this into Brewers Friend's water calculator to see what comes up, with a grist of 11 lbs base malt, 1.5 ounce melanoidin malt, and the 2% acid malt which comes to 3.5 ounces...and 5 gallons mash water, 4.75 sparge, and treating only mash water, I get these numbers (with distilled water):

Ca 186
Cl 238
So4 124
ph 4.93

Beside pH being too low, Chloride is almost double sulfate giving me a very malty profile. Obviously a Dortmunder should be a more balanced profile or edge even very slightly to to hoppier side. What am I doing wrong?

 

[ajdelange]

The baseline is 1 tsp of each. Doubling that would give you 2 tsp of each. That's plenty (more than enough actually) and yes, you would need 2% sauermalz.

 

[dbkdev]

So I read about 30 pages and didn't find an answer to my question, my apologies if it was later in the thread. Brewing a double ipa BIAB, no sparge. At what point should I add the calcium chloride and gypsum? Before grains in or after I pull the gains out?

 

[ajdelange]

You would add them to the water just as you would with more conventional methods of brewing.

PS: I admire your persistence in slogging through 30 pp.

 

[dbkdev]

Ha, trying to learn all I can. I admire your persistence in responding to this thread for so long. Ive never treated water at all before. Should I toss it in while climbing to strike temp?

 

[hunter_le five]

Ha, trying to learn all I can. I admire your persistence in responding to this thread for so long. Ive never treated water at all before. Should I toss it in while climbing to strike temp?

That's what I do.
Give it a couple good stirs to make sure it gets dissolved as it's heating up.

 

[ajdelange]

Should I toss it in while climbing to strike temp?

That will work but gypsum dissolves a little easier at lower temperature so do it at the beginning of the ramp rather than the end.

 

[hoppybrewster]

When is the right time for an extract brewer to make water adjustments?


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[ajdelange]

When is the right time for an extract brewer to make water adjustments?

As much of water tweaking is done to insure correct pH for mash reactions when the mashing is done by an extract manufacturer that concern goes away which leaves flavor considerations. If you want more or less body, sweetness, roundness you can adjust chloride. If you want more or less assertive hops bitterness you can adjust sulfate. If you want a minerally quality or a salty taste then you can adjust accordingly.

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Does the carrier charge extra for this?

 

[hoppybrewster]

^^^^^^90% of my beers are IPA/APA's so where should the water numbers be to best utilize the hops?


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[ajdelange]

Best utilization and best hop perception are two different things. Utilization can be improved by increasing kettle pH. This, if taken too far, can result in unpleasantly harsh bitterness.

Adjustment of chloride and sulfate levels for the most pleasing beer is best done by experiment in which you add bits of sulfate and chloride to your beer as you taste it and then reflect the ion levels that give the most pleasing result in the kettle. This is hard to do if you don't know the starting point so you should, if you intend to do this, get the water analyzed or get an analysis from your municipal supplier.

 

[Hermit]

Adjustment of chloride and sulfate levels for the most pleasing beer is best done by experiment in which you add bits of sulfate and chloride to your beer as you taste it and then reflect the ion levels that give the most pleasing result in the kettle. This is hard to do if you don't know the starting point so you should, if you intend to do this, get the water analyzed or get an analysis from your municipal supplier.

Considering some of the amounts are pretty small to start with, like a teaspoon for 5 gallons, do you do this as a dilution? If so, what amounts do you find useful? I guess we have to think sample size and part per million. A 4 ounce sample size and drop sized additions so you don't dilute the sample too much? Excuse me if you've answered this in the past but I was away for 11 months earning a living. Back to the important stuff now.

 

[mabrungard]

When is the right time for an extract brewer to make water adjustments?

As mentioned, the extract has already had its pH optimized for good extraction, conversion, and body. However, the water used in subsequent extract brewing still requires some attention.

For those brewers that steep accessory grains, making sure that the steeping water has an appropriate alkalinity level is wise. So attending to that water adjustment prior to steeping is appropriate. If those steeping grains are all pale colored, then low alkalinity water might be required. If you are steeping roasted grains, then higher alkalinity steeping water might be desirable (or allowable).

In the case of the water used to dilute the extract, it would only be important to adjust that water's alkalinity just prior to the boil. Using very low alkalinity water for extract dilution is ideal and is recommended. But some brewers don't have that luxury or need. Then their tap water alkalinity may need some neutralization in order to avoid a high kettle wort pH which can make the beer flavor dull and the hopping harsh.

With regard to mineral adjustments for flavor effect, those can be added at any time in the steeping, dilution, or boiling process. Although you could add those minerals at the fermentation stage, it just seems unwise to add a potential contamination vector at that stage when you can easily add it in the kettle and have it sterilized.

Enjoy!

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

^^^^^^90% of my beers are IPA/APA's so where should the water numbers be to best utilize the hops?


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There is a tension between utilization and flavor. Alpha acids are more readily extracted at high pH (because acids have low pKa values), but they are more readily isomerized at low pH (because the isomerization is acid catalyzed). Thus high pH gives you better utilization, but muddled bitterness, while low pH gives you a sharper bitterness, but worse utilization.


In my recent experience (I'm new to water chemistry), pH ~5.3 and sulphate ~70-100 mg/L gives the cleanest hop bitterness and allows the late hop additions to shine.

 

[jimyson]

Been using this method for the last 3-4 batches and it has worked great! pH has been +/- .1 of 5.2 each time and have made IPA's and Stouts with the same results.

Thanks, AJ!


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[IKR]

My first post. I pick up a lot of good information on the site but one thing about the water primer concerns me. I'm about to brew a highly hopped DIPA. The recommendation for very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum. Wouldn't 2 tsp of calcium chloride (5 gal batch) lead to an excessively high chloride level? Using BruN Water, even 1 tsp with DI water appears to result in an excessive Cl level. Am I missing something?

Cheers,
IKR

 

[Hermit]

My first post. I pick up a lot of good information on the site but one thing about the water primer concerns me. I'm about to brew a highly hopped DIPA. The recommendation for very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum. Wouldn't 2 tsp of calcium chloride (5 gal batch) lead to an excessively high chloride level? Using BruN Water, even 1 tsp with DI water appears to result in an excessive Cl level. Am I missing something?

Cheers,
IKR

1 teaspoon puts me up around 85 ppm for a 3 gallon batch, so no, one teaspoon shouldn't put you over for a 5 gallon batch. By definition a "minerally beer" is going to have lots of minerals. The primer is a place to start. If you are doing a double IPA I'd stick with the gypsum and forget the calcium chloride. Keep it simple until you understand what each the gypsum and calcium chloride bring to the party.

 

[windycitybears1985]

My apologies if this has been answered. I read through this entire thread about 4 months ago, but the search function doesn't seem to bring anything up. I do small batch BIAB and usually use about 5 gallons of 100% RO water for the mash and don't sparge. I recently used one of the brew water calculators and it had me add 17 and 34 ML of 10% phosphoric to a brown ale and a cream ale respectively. I thought this seemed high and now after kegging there is definitely a bitter aftertaste to these beers and they finished sweet with proper attenuation.

The question: Is there an addition that could be made to the original post or reply to this inquiry for acid additions by beer profile? I am seeming to have trouble locking in these figures and would rather not make another dumper batch. For example instead of 2% sauermalz for the baseline add ___ ML of 10% phosphoric acid, Soft water beers add ____ ML and beers with roast malt add ____ ML (or it sounds like just leave out altogether).

I really appreciate the help. For those newer brewers that need a KISS method for water profiles it would seem like an easy resource to make a chart by beer style. The chart would be based around 100% RO water that is built back up so everyone that uses the information would have a universal control. Maybe once provided this information I could put something together for the greater good. Thanks in advance for your help!












































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[Hermit]

My apologies if this has been answered. I read through this entire thread about 4 months ago, but the search function doesn't seem to bring anything up. I do small batch BIAB and usually use about 5 gallons of 100% RO water for the mash and don't sparge. I recently used one of the brew water calculators and it had me add 17 and 34 ML of 10% phosphoric to a brown ale and a cream ale respectively. I thought this seemed high and now after kegging there is definitely a bitter aftertaste to these beers and they finished sweet with proper attenuation.

The question: Is there an addition that could be made to the original post or reply to this inquiry for acid additions by beer profile? I am seeming to have trouble locking in these figures and would rather not make another dumper batch. For example instead of 2% sauermalz for the baseline add ___ ML of 10% phosphoric acid, Soft water beers add ____ ML and beers with roast malt add ____ ML (or it sounds like just leave out altogether).

I really appreciate the help. For those newer brewers that need a KISS method for water profiles it would seem like an easy resource to make a chart by beer style. The chart would be based around 100% RO water that is built back up so everyone that uses the information would have a universal control. Maybe once provided this information I could put something together for the greater good. Thanks in advance for your help!

Brewer's Friend lets you specify mash pH and will give you the corresponding acid addition. Try that and see if you come up with the same numbers as your other program. In the end, there is no substitute for measuring pH. Grains will vary. You only get estimates based on the best available data from these programs.

The primer is a general guideline to get you started. The premise is it should always get you drinkable beer. Adding to it only adds to the complexity and confusion many have when first trying to understand what the water brings to the table. When Richard Feynman was writing a book about physics for the general public he was told every equation he added would lose readers. Kinda the same thing here. Get a second opinion from another program to see if it backs up the original. If it does, then your malts simply fall outside the norm of those tested. Not much can be done about that unless you start measuring pH directly.

And, there is no guarantee here your poor flavor is a result of mash pH unless you measure.

 

[windycitybears1985]

Thanks Hermit. I agree with the PH reading. Can't fix a problem you can't properly identify. I found Brewer's Friend calculator more user friendly and the estimated acid addition went down from 17 ML to 5 so could be a big difference. I will keep tinkering.

2nd question: Since I downsized my brewing setup I may not be able to fit a full volume boil for 5 gallon batches in my kettle (10 gallon kettle with a biab setup). Should I be treating the top off water for the fermenter if I use RO water? Meaning adding CaCl and gypsum per calculator recommendations? Since it is BIAB maybe treat the top off water as sparge water per the Brewer's Friend water calculator??? Thanks!


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[Hermit]

Thanks Hermit. I agree with the PH reading. Can't fix a problem you can't properly identify. I found Brewer's Friend calculator more user friendly and the estimated acid addition went down from 17 ML to 5 so could be a big difference. I will keep tinkering.

2nd question: Since I downsized my brewing setup I may not be able to fit a full volume boil for 5 gallon batches in my kettle (10 gallon kettle with a biab setup). Should I be treating the top off water for the fermenter if I use RO water? Meaning adding CaCl and gypsum per calculator recommendations? Since it is BIAB maybe treat the top off water as sparge water per the Brewer's Friend water calculator??? Thanks!


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Personally, I'd just focus on the mash and get that right. The top off water never hits the grain and there probably isn't that much of it anyhow.

 

[windycitybears1985]

Thanks again!


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[davehenry]

Excellent thread. So far I've read through the the first third and last third. I will finish the middle when I get more time. The only thing that would make the primer better would be to add beer style examples so that folks don't need to keep asking where there next brew fits in. Thanks for posting this!


Brewing up a storm in Langley, British Columbia

 

[davehenry]

I may have missed this during my reading. By using 2% sauermalz do you mean work it in as 2% of the grain bill or add it as on top of the existing grain bill?


Brewing up a storm in Langley, British Columbia

 

[kaconga]

I work it into my grainbill. Seems to work fine. The difference between adding it to and working it in is pretty negligible.

Edit: just ran some numbers in Brewr and it was the same either way I did it for a 12 lb grain bill. So I think it doesn't matter which way.

 

[davehenry]

Thanks!


Brewing up a storm in Langley, British Columbia

 

[davehenry]

Thanks!


Brewing up a storm in Langley, British Columbia

 

[ajdelange]

The intention is that 2% means 2% of the grist is sauermalz and the rest is something else e.g. 2 lbs sauermalz and 98 lbs of other malts. But, as has been observed, if you have 100 lbs of grain and add 2 lbs of sauermaltz the percentage will be 100*2/102 = 1.96%. Doesn't much matter, thus, which way you choose to interpret it.