A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[Hermit]

Hmm.. I guess I am lucky..

All my water I got straight from the tap and the top-off water straight from the tap no boiling. No problems and beer so far tastes great.

That said our water is fairly soft and clean. I had aquariums and barely had to do anything to the water until after the fish were in it.

You could run into problems if there is something in the water that likes your beer AND you store it a long time. I was ridiculed for saying this before but it would explain why people 'suddenly' have a favorite batch they have been nursing along suddenly 'go bad' on them. A few bacteria doubling under hostile conditions might take a long time to reach a detectable threshold level but the last doubling could appear to be quite sudden.

 

[CDGoin]

I can see that.. I'll probably boil from now on..

 

[AjhW]

Nice to know, thanks

 

[ajdelange]

I was ridiculed for saying this before but it would explain why people 'suddenly' have a favorite batch they have been nursing along suddenly 'go bad' on them. A few bacteria doubling under hostile conditions might take a long time to reach a detectable threshold level but the last doubling could appear to be quite sudden.

OK but let's recognize that there are other things that cause beer stored for a long time to go bad:

1. Oxidation: Some of these reactions are slow. If the wort/beer is not in a reduced state when packaged and if oxygen is not excluded from the package then over time the beer may develop the (alas) familiar cardboard or other tastes.
2. Diacetyl: I keep beer for a long time because I brew large batches (and I do that so I'll have it around for a long time). Diacetyl forms after fermentation and lagering is, therefore, done over yeast so they can reabsorb it. Because I'm keeping the beer for a long time I lager in the package (kegs) and make sure there is plenty of yeast in there. Eventually the yeast die and are no longer able to remove diacetyl. Eventually (a year or more) the diacetyl starts to creep back up (the beers begin to taste caramel like). Don't really know the mechanism - is there still acetolactate in there converting to diacetyl with no viable yeast to pick it up?
3. Whatever happens to Weizen beer: This is probably the most extreme example. Weizen beer just can't be stored for more than a couple of months. I suspect the problem is oxidation by my Weizens are stored no differently that my lagers. I remember trying to explain (in my halting German) to a bunch of good Burghers who wanted to know if we had Weizen in the US. I said no because by the time it got over here it wasn't Weizen any more.

I have had infection in a keg (fortunately only one out of the 4 I typically fill) but it came up right away. The other problems (except 3) take more than a year in my experience.

In case you think that I am advising that boiling isn't necessary let me be clear that it is one of those things you can probably get away with omitting 99 times out of 100 but it isn't worth risking it.

 

[gbx]

1. Oxidation: Some of these reactions are slow. If the wort/beer is not in a reduced state when packaged and if oxygen is not excluded from the package then over time the beer may develop the (alas) familiar cardboard or other tastes.
.

Sorry as this is off topic for the water primer How fast does the classic cardboard oxidation take to form? I did an off flavours class and I noticed they used the seibel kit for the oxidation but for light struck they just set the beer out in the sun for the afternoon. Is oxidation fast enough that you could simply bubble pure O2 through a beer and then serve it a few minutes (or hours) later as an example of the oxidation off-flavour?

2. Diacetyl: I keep beer for a long time because I brew large batches (and I do that so I'll have it around for a long time). Diacetyl forms after fermentation and lagering is, therefore, done over yeast so they can reabsorb it. Because I'm keeping the beer for a long time I lager in the package (kegs) and make sure there is plenty of yeast in there. Eventually the yeast die and are no longer able to remove diacetyl. Eventually (a year or more) the diacetyl starts to creep back up (the beers begin to taste caramel like). Don't really know the mechanism - is there still acetolactate in there converting to diacetyl with no viable yeast to pick it up?

Last year I had 2 batches that seemed to increase in diacetyl and a batch that started to develop acetaldhyde after a couple months in the keg stored at 17-18C. I assumed I had some sort of baterial infection and have since replaced all my plastic and striped down my kegs and boiled all the rubber parts. I'm hoping its something as straight forward as an infection.

 

[NanoMan]

I can add the post ferment data now:

Brown Ale: pH 4.54 FG 1.016 Notes: Despite the high FG, the beer tasted remarkably dry, with the dark malts being very well expressed. All of the grain was home malted (not by me). Very pleased and a second batch is now fermenting (using commerical grains). Would like to see the finish pH down slightly.

Stout: pH 4.22 FG 1.018 Beer tastes excellent. Big (as in ciomplex), but dry with a firm bittering. Roast nicely expressed. Brewing again this weekend.

Helles: pH 4.52 FG 1.012. The beer tastes good, except that I perceive a slight minerally aspect. We'll re-evaluate post clarification and carbonation. Brewed again reducing the total calcium and using acid malt to attain lower pH (but hit only 5.51 as compared to 5.34 with the first helles). Final pH is still too high.

I've noticed that inthe 7 beers I have brewed using the EZCalc spreadsheet that with one exception (first helles) the mash pH always comes in higher than predicted. I plan to increase the addition of acid malt until I hit th target. My post ferment pH is greatly improved.

As to when I add salts. Everything (gypsum, CaCl2, chalk, MgSO4) is added at the mash. Sparge water is acidified to 5.5 using 10% phosphoric per Strong's book. I am also thinking about acidifying the mash water thusly as that might also help in lowering pH.

Cheers!

 

[NanoMan]

PS. Scrolling through earlier posts (prior to my joining the Forum) I see mention of a Water primer. What/where is that?

Cheers!

 

[ajdelange]

Acidifying the mash water to intended mash pH effectively reduces its alkalinity to 0. The graph at http://wetnewf.org/pdfs/alkalinity-reduction-with.html (which I originally posted here) shows the percentage alkalinity reduction as a function of target pH and original pH. Just remember that every equivalent of alkalinity removed is replaced my an equivalent of the anion of the acid.

The Primer is, in fact, this very thread.

 

[Hermit]

PS. Scrolling through earlier posts (prior to my joining the Forum) I see mention of a Water primer. What/where is that?

Cheers!

First post of this thread.

 

[NanoMan]

Thanks again, AJ. FYI, the link to Alkalinity part I appears to be broken.

Cheers!

PS There is a spreadsheet referenced (see a post on 11-12-12). Can you (or anyone) advise what spreadsheet that is? Thanks!

 

[NanoMan]

Acidifying the mash water to intended mash pH effectively reduces its alkalinity to 0. The graph at http://wetnewf.org/pdfs/alkalinity-reduction-with.html (which I originally posted here) shows the percentage alkalinity reduction as a function of target pH and original pH. Just remember that every equivalent of alkalinity removed is replaced my an equivalent of the anion of the acid.



This is what Sierra Nevada is supposedly doing, setting all brewing water to 5.5?

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks again, AJ. FYI, the link to Alkalinity part I appears to be broken.

Thanks for the heads up on that. The thing has only been on line a couple of days and I've got lots to do.

There is a spreadsheet referenced (see a post on 11-12-12). Can you (or anyone) advise what spreadsheet that is? Thanks!

Probably Bru'n Water or EZ. Fits either.

 

[ajdelange]

This is what Sierra Nevada is supposedly doing, setting all brewing water to 5.5?

Quote from the linked page: "It has been reported that Sierra Nevada, consistent with the idea given here, treats all it's water to pH 5.5 with phosphoric acid. Chico water has average alkalinity of 76 ppm as calcium carbonate and pH which can be as low as 6.5 or as high as 7.9."

It was this rumor that got me thinking about the consequences of doing this. I think it's pretty smart.

 

[beerbeerbeer123]

sorry if im off topic but would it be wise to add calcium cloride to poland spring water for a BGSA? It is soft and low in minerals

 

[NanoMan]

I really appreciate all of this information and interaction. And to think I actually started down this road because I was trying to achive clarity!! I'm using my pH meter twice as much as my refractometer! i'm using the EZ for my spreadsheet and will continue to report out on my data. The biggest variable seems to be in estimating total water. Very hard to predict how much gets left behind in the tun. You don't know until it's drained. I'm getting better at predicting when to stop adding more sparge water.

Cheers!

 

[Hermit]

I really appreciate all of this information and interaction. And to think I actually started down this road because I was trying to achive clarity!! I'm using my pH meter twice as much as my refractometer! i'm using the EZ for my spreadsheet and will continue to report out on my data. The biggest variable seems to be in estimating total water. Very hard to predict how much gets left behind in the tun. You don't know until it's drained. I'm getting better at predicting when to stop adding more sparge water.

Cheers!

You could just sparge until you hit your boil volume. There is nothing magical about the amount left in the tun.

I have a friend at a brewery that runs wort into the drain that most of us would brew with because all their stuff is high gravity. He would like to let home brewers come in to collect it but it would interfere with their schedule.

 

[NanoMan]

You could just sparge until you hit your boil volume. There is nothing magical about the amount left in the tun.

Wouldn't that make it difficult to approximate the various salt aspects, e.g., SO4-- for IPA, etc.? They would be diluted.

 

[Hermit]

You could just sparge until you hit your boil volume. There is nothing magical about the amount left in the tun.

Wouldn't that make it difficult to approximate the various salt aspects, e.g., SO4-- for IPA, etc.? They would be diluted.

The ratios, ppm's. stay the same regardless of volume. I guess if you just want x milligrams in the kettle you could just add it to the kettle.

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks again, AJ. FYI, the link to Alkalinity part I appears to be broken.

These links are fixed.
Part I is at http://wetnewf.org/pdfs/Brewing_articles/BT_Alkalinity/alkalinity.pdf
Part II at http://wetnewf.org/pdfs/Brewing_articles/BT_Alkalinity_II/AlkalinityPtII.pdf

 

[tally350z]

So I am going to be making my first batch this weekend using RO water and I just wanted to get some clarification what I should add. I will be making an BarleyWine, using 2-row,aromatic, crystal 30 and 80, and some rye. Its for a 5 gallon batch and according to beersmith, I am using 6.66 gallons of strike water and 3.42 gallons of sparge water. Does anyone have any good recommendations on what minerals to add. When it comes to the water adjusting, I am still completely lost.

 

[periwinkle1239]

I know that barleywine's are not specifically mentioned in the primer but I suppose I would stick with a simple approach. 1 tsp of calcium chloride per 5 gal of water, and then perhaps if you want to enhance some of the bitterness you could use 1 tsp of gypsum as well. I'd say the gypsum would be optional but I would probably use it myself. And then I'm thinking you'll still want to include some acid malt for pH reduction since you're not using roasted malts. Maybe 2%, although I'm not a pH expert.

I invested and started using RO water a few months ago and most certainly notice a difference in a positive way. I stick to the primer for the most part and keep my salt additions simple. I also invested in a pH meter and tried to use it but have struggled with calibration and readings so I've shelved it for now.

 

[allenH]

I've been searching this thread (and others) trying to find out how much acidulated malt I need for BM's Cream of 3 Crops. This recipe has 5lbs of adjuncts (10gal) do they count towards the total grain bill to get my 2-4% acidulated malt? I asked the guy at my LHBS last night and he had no clue either.

*edit- I use 100% RO incase that matters.

 

[DustBow]

I "believe" only the roasted grains will pull the pH down and adjuncts would/should just be counted as base grains but I'm far from the expert here

 

[allenH]

I "believe" only the roasted grains will pull the pH down and adjuncts would/should just be counted as base grains but I'm far from the expert here

That was my thought as well, but if I'm wrong, I will end up with over 4% acidulated malt in a really light beer.

 

[mabrungard]

I "believe" only the roasted grains will pull the pH down and adjuncts would/should just be counted as base grains but I'm far from the expert here

Dark crystal malts are actually the most acidic malts we brewers use (excepting for acid malt, of course). But for the most part, un-kilned adjuncts like corn and rice can be treated as a base malt with respect to their pH effect.

 

[allenH]

Dark crystal malts are actually the most acidic malts we brewers use (excepting for acid malt, of course). But for the most part, un-kilned adjuncts like corn and rice can be treated as a base malt with respect to their pH effect.

Thank you sir, that is the answer I needed. I will make sure to let my LHBS know that as well.

 

[NanoMan]

The ratios, ppm's. stay the same regardless of volume. I guess if you just want x milligrams in the kettle you could just add it to the kettle.

Saw this when you posted but didn't have time to follow up. I didn't track with your answer though. Isn't the ration, i.e., the ppm, going to change based on how much water is ultamately added to the mash and sparge? Fior example, using the EZ calculator, you estimate total gallons for mashing, and total gallons for sparging. With whatever salts you've added, and I add all of mine into the mash, you get a theoretical ppm based on the total water volume. The mash water volume is easily measured. But let's say my sparge water volume is estimated to be 5 gallons. However, I wind up adding a total of 10 gallons into the mash tun. Are not the resulting ppms lower (diluted)? Maybe I'm not looking at this right.


Cheers!

PS For even more love, look for my newest thread "Where's my bitterness?!"

 

[Hermit]

Saw this when you posted but didn't have time to follow up. I didn't track with your answer though. Isn't the ration, i.e., the ppm, going to change based on how much water is ultamately added to the mash and sparge? Fior example, using the EZ calculator, you estimate total gallons for mashing, and total gallons for sparging. With whatever salts you've added, and I add all of mine into the mash, you get a theoretical ppm based on the total water volume. The mash water volume is easily measured. But let's say my sparge water volume is estimated to be 5 gallons. However, I wind up adding a total of 10 gallons into the mash tun. Are not the resulting ppms lower (diluted)? Maybe I'm not looking at this right.


Cheers!

PS For even more love, look for my newest thread "Where's my bitterness?!"

It isn't kind to hit an old man with a brain teaser after 2 weeks. It doesn't matter if you have 12 or 13 gallons. You figure your ppm for that volume and it doesn't change until you boil some off. So the question is, are you worried about what the numbers are when you mash/sparge or are you worried about the total salts that make it to the brew kettle? My point is you can add a few extra quarts to the process and then just sparge until you have your boil amount. You treat the TOTAL water you put in to get to your ppm for mashing and sparging. If you end up with a couple of extra quarts it doesn't matter. You wouldn't have gotten those sugars out anyhow.

 

[NanoMan]

Well I think you validated my point, which was really just technical. My main point was that the final salts into kettle, which is what I was focused on in this example, is an approximation and the sparge is the greater variable as you can be pretty precise with regards to mash water.

Having said that, it now occurs to me that I can add only mash salts to the mash and then kettle salts AFTER sparging when the volume is known.

Cheers!

 

[Hermit]

Having said that, it now occurs to me that I can add only mash salts to the mash and then kettle salts AFTER sparging when the volume is known.

Cheers!

I actually mentioned kettle additions. No matter. You finally have the answer you were looking for.