A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[NanoMan]

And I came away with a new look at the problem- Gracie!

 

[NanoMan]

Update: Having now used the EZCalc for about 15 batches I think I will begin to acidify all water to pH 5. This should allow me to hit optimum mash pH without excessive salt manipulation given my soft water. I'll post data as I get it.

 

[user 131481]

Yooper

Just want to say thanks for the simple instructions. I've been trying to isolate cause of off flavor in my beers. So I went simple, used your instructions using distilled water and with Bier Munchers Centennial blonde recipe. The off flavor is gone. So now wondering why... Maybe water company started using chloramine?? Next step is same recipe with tap and Camden tabs. Again, thanks!

 

[jmf143]

Yooper

Just want to say thanks for the simple instructions. I've been trying to isolate cause of off flavor in my beers. So I went simple, used your instructions using distilled water and with Bier Munchers Centennial blonde recipe. The off flavor is gone. So now wondering why... Maybe water company started using chloramine?? Next step is same recipe with tap and Camden tabs. Again, thanks!

Have you considered the amount of bicarbonate you have in your (tap) sparge water and its affect on sparge pH? You might have been extracting tannins before you switched to using distilled water for sparging.

 

[user 131481]

Have you considered the amount of bicarbonate you have in your (tap) sparge water and its affect on sparge pH? You might have been extracting tannins before you switched to using distilled water for sparging.

Thanks for the suggestion. PH is on my list of troubleshooting the issue. Strange thing is my PH when measured at Mash is low. Also the beers with off flavor have had no head. I'm measuring with ph papers and realize its less than perfect. The above two items leads me to believe bicarbonate is very low. The water company tells me the water source is river fed, so ion concentration are highly prone to changes in rain. I've spoken with local brewery (hofbrau haus) and they tell me tap from river is great left untreated (I.e. no ro or filters).

One step at a time. Btw, is there a ph meter you recommend??

 

[Hermit]

Thanks for the suggestion. PH is on my list of troubleshooting the issue. Strange thing is my PH when measured at Mash is low. Also the beers with off flavor have had no head. I'm measuring with ph papers and realize its less than perfect. The above two items leads me to believe bicarbonate is very low. The water company tells me the water source is river fed, so ion concentration are highly prone to changes in rain. I've spoken with local brewery (hofbrau haus) and they tell me tap from river is great left untreated (I.e. no ro or filters).

One step at a time. Btw, is there a ph meter you recommend??

Did they indicate if they do regular testing and did they share any actual current numbers?

 

[user 131481]

Did they indicate if they do regular testing and did they share any actual current numbers?

Its been 6 months since I spoke with the water co. Specific to PH impact, he gave me ion ranges and said summer drought toward high end, plenty of rain toward low end. Alkalinity range was 26-73 ppm, calcium 23-66 ppm, mg 1-18 ppm. He did not offer specific current readings. I use lactic acid or thinner mash to deal with mash mod (ph papers read low ph so no lactic used). I have not been treating sparge to adjust ph. I do not typically check ph of wort so cannot offer ph there.

 

[NanoMan]

And after ALL of this, my pH meter stopped working this morning. Son of a ........

 

[mirogster]

And after ALL of this, my pH meter stopped working this morning. Son of a ........

Time for hitting China via ebay ;P

 

[NanoMan]

Well, it turns out there is an advance calibration procedure and I was able to reset it to the factory defaults. Working fine again and its gettting A LOT of use!

 

[mirogster]

Wheew, that was close one Btw. which one do you have?

 

[NanoMan]

I use the HM Digital PH-200 Waterproof pH and Temperature Meter. It was recommended by a pro-brewer and personal friend of mine. I am very satisfied. I don't immerse it, however. I will draw out a 2+ ounce sample and put those in narrow plastic taster glasses along with calibration solution and distilled water for rinsing. I do a calibration at the beginning of my session, then measure hot liquor (target 5.0-5.5), mash (target 5.1-5.5), pre-boil and post-boil pH (target 5.2-5.4). Then risne the meter and store it with a little solution on the sponge in the cap.

Got my meter on Amazon, $80 plus shipping. My local hydroponics shop has the calibration solutions.

Cheers!

NanoMan

 

[DustBow]

That's the one I have had my eye on......

 

[NanoMan]

Do it....

 

[phineascoates]

This could make me simple thing while i'm using the water.If your water tastes good, your beer should taste good. How aspect of brewing could possibly affect to brewing? The addition of salts when brewing with extract is not necessary and also it is not recommended until you have gained experience with the intended recipe.

 

[MagicSmoker]

What an excellent thread! I read the entire thing (yes, all 59 pages :cross: )

I have one big question though... I've heard that reverse osmosis typically reduces the concentrations of dissolved solids by 90% (ie - water that goes into the RO system with 100ppm of Ca comes out with around 10ppm). If that is true then I probably will still have problems even using straight RO water judging by my Ward Labs report:

pH: 8.0
TDS: 374
Conductivity: 0.62 microSeimens
Cat/An Balance: 6.9/7.3

Na: 40
K: 2
Ca: 90
Mg: 7
TH: 254
NO3-N: 0.4 (1.77 as NO4)
SO4-S: 68 (204 as SO4)
Cl: 35
CO3: 6
HCO3: 115
TA: 104

Needless to say, water heaters don't last long in these here parts...

So, given the mineral content of my water to begin with, would I be better off just using straight RO, or should I still toss in a few grams of calcium chloride?

 

[mirogster]

Is this your regular tap water ? If so, it's really ok. Imho, no need to use RO. pH is average for drinking water around the globe, Ca is ok, SO4:Cl favors hoppiness. You can build almost every style with this. Depending on grist of course. I'd use RO only to brew some really delicate Pilseners, Vienna Lagers etc.

 

[afr0byte]

The water isn't bad, for hoppy styles at least, but he'll need acid for almost all of the beers he brews. That bicarbonate level of 115 is pretty high.

 

[mirogster]

True. I have similar water. Without some accidification (accidif. malt, lactic acid, 'bath' salts ), I can't get my mash pH to safe range 5.3-5.6 - even if brewing dark beers (the same concerns sparging water). On the other hand, RO can be used for mentioned sparging.

 

[MagicSmoker]

Yep, this is my tap water in (central) Tampa, FL (after passing through a whole-house carbon filter). One interesting fact about our water is that it is blended from 3 separate sources: the Floridan aquifer, the main rivers in Hillsborough Co (Hillsborough & Alafia, plus the Tampa Bypass Canal), and a desalination plant in Tampa Bay.

The problem I've noticed with my first 4 beers is a definite astringent taste with a more subtle soapy taste that lingers after swallowing. From all my reading here, I suspect the problem is simply a matter of alkalinity. So I bought a pH meter (Milwaukee PH55) and the full array of water adjustment chemicals from my LHBS, then loaded up my two otherwise unused Better Bottles with 10gal. of RO water (at $0.25/gal!). I was going to just use RO water with 3 grams of CaCl2, plus a couple grams of CaSO4 for good measure, then adjust the mash pH down to 5.4 with lactic acid if needed, but maybe I should just dilute my tap water in half with RO and keep the lactic acid close by just in case?

 

[ajdelange]

I have one big question though... I've heard that reverse osmosis typically reduces the concentrations of dissolved solids by 90% (ie - water that goes into the RO system with 100ppm of Ca comes out with around 10ppm).

It should be more like 2 - 5 ppm i.e. you should be getting rejections of over 95% and 98% or even a little more for some ions in a properly functioning system.

If that is true then I probably will still have problems even using straight RO water judging by my Ward Labs report:

Probably not. This water is very high in sulfate and highish in sodium but is otherwise pretty normal.

Needless to say, water heaters don't last long in these here parts...

?

So, given the mineral content of my water to begin with, would I be better off just using straight RO, or should I still toss in a few grams of calcium chloride?

If you do use RO then you will definitely want to add calcium chloride and acid (for most beers) and sulfate for those in which you want the hop character associated with sulfate.

 

[MagicSmoker]

It should be more like 2 - 5 ppm i.e. you should be getting rejections of over 95% and 98% or even a little more for some ions in a properly functioning system.

Okay. I'll definitely take your word for it over the nebulous "they". Would using a TDS meter be a good way to evaluate how effective the RO system is?

Also, any word yet on when your book is coming out? I think back in June of last year you said it might be another year... is that still on track?

?

Scale will build up in water heaters to such an extent that the lower element will burn out if the tank isn't drained every year or so.

If you do use RO then you will definitely want to add calcium chloride and acid (for most beers) and sulfate for those in which you want the hop character associated with sulfate.

Check. I'll definitely be using RO for this next batch, and I have all the other supplies necessary to do the adjustments (including a pH meter and calibration solutions). I probably should brew the same recipe I've already done before to make this a more scientific test, but where's the fun in that?

Thanks for the reply - the effort you have expended in this thread alone should surely qualify as legendary.

 

[ajdelange]

Would using a TDS meter be a good way to evaluate how effective the RO system is?

Yes, definitely.

Also, any word yet on when your book is coming out? I think back in June of last year you said it might be another year... is that still on track?

It's not my book - I'm just doing tech editing on it. The authors are finding out what I knew already - this isn't an easy subject to write a book on. I have no idea what the publisher will actually want to do but I'd say that it still needs quite a bit of work. My guess is that, as was the case last year, the hope would be to get it out for the NHA conference. I don't see making that schedule without cutting some corners but it is possible.

Scale will build up in water heaters to such an extent that the lower element will burn out if the tank isn't drained every year or so.

Figured that might be it but the water isn't that bad as almost half is permanent hardensss (does not deposit).

 

[thatjonguy]

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

pH 9.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 720
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 1.20
Cations / Anions, me/L 11.3 / 12.2

Sodium, Na 205
Potassium, K 8
Calcium, Ca 22
Magnesium, Mg 13
Total Hardness, CaCO3 109
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.5 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 121
Chloride, Cl 91
Carbonate, CO3 20
Bicarbonate, HCO3 85
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 104
Fluoride, F 1.05
Total Iron, Fe 0.05

This is local tap water (sourced from ground water).

 

[ajdelange]

I'm afraid there isn't much you can do here. The sodium level is pretty high and the sulfate level is even beyond the EPA's SMCL. Unless you are willing to restrict yourself to a very limited range of beer styles you will have to run this water through an RO system or obtain water from another source.

 

[thatjonguy]

That is what I came up with besides maybe blending with RO. But a second is very much appreciated. Thanks AJ!

 

[Larso]

I'm doing a dunkel weissbier with 3.9% black patent malt(carafa special 3). Should I skip the sauermalz altogether or just reduce it a little? I assume I treat it as a soft water beer otherwise(with CaCl)?

thanks

L
Just doughed in. Used 50g sauermalz. Not as dark as porter but dark anyway

 

[NanoMan]

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

pH 9.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 720
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 1.20
Cations / Anions, me/L 11.3 / 12.2

Sodium, Na 205
Potassium, K 8
Calcium, Ca 22
Magnesium, Mg 13
Total Hardness, CaCO3 109
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.5 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 121
Chloride, Cl 91
Carbonate, CO3 20
Bicarbonate, HCO3 85
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 104
Fluoride, F 1.05
Total Iron, Fe 0.05

This is local tap water (sourced from ground water).

I thought it was a sample from the Portal to hell they just discovered in Turkey! that's some rough agua you have. Imperial Dortmunder?

 

[NanoMan]

I've done nearly 50 batches now using the E-Z Water Calc spreadsheet. There has been a very good correlation between predicted mash pH and measured. I admit to being impressed at how powerful NaHCO3 is in raising mash pH inthe mash. For instance, a 24.5 lb mash came in with a pH at 4.92. Adding only 2 gm of NaHCO3 brought it to 5.25. This has been consistent. Post boil pH has been within targets and the beers are turining out well.

 

[thatjonguy]

I thought it was a sample from the Portal to hell they just discovered in Turkey! that's some rough agua you have. Imperial Dortmunder?

Maybe, lol. All that sulfate has a very mild laxative effect, so all the visitors usually feel better after they leave...