Or repitch 5 times using a single packet and feel like you've saved money. I feel like this thread is derailing. We all know that it's possible to buy a bunch of small packs of yeast without a starter. Because money is a thing for some people, that's a non-starter ... pun intended.
5L flask broke during boil
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Or repitch 5 times using a single packet and feel like you've saved money. I feel like this thread is derailing. We all know that it's possible to buy a bunch of small packs of yeast without a starter. Because money is a thing for some people, that's a non-starter ... pun intended.
chumpsteak
Well-Known Member
You don't have to actually boil in the flask. Bring temp up over 180 then shut the burner off and let it sit for 15 min before cooling. Boiling isn't really sanitizing any better than 180. To truly sanitize you'd need to pressure cook or autoclave anyway.
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's derailing - I offered up the idea because your concern was whether you had time to build up the size of starter you want, which I don't think you do, if you want to do it right (build up, crash, decant, build up again, crash, decant).
That leaves you with four options as I see it:
1: underpitch (I would not recommend it for a lager you are putting so much work and resources into)
2: hasty starter buildup without decanting properly (up to you, but like underpitching, I'd prefer not to take potentially flavor-affecting shortcuts like pitching spent starter wort into a beer I've put so much time and resources into)
3: Push back brew day to another weekend
4: Buy enough yeast to make up for that which you don't have time to cultivate. The cost can be offset by careful harvesting and reuse of that yeast for other batches. I did exactly that a few months ago, buying 5 packs of one yeast and pitched it. I have harvested and re-used that yeast on four subsequent batches and plan to do more with it, so I will end up using less than one bought pack per batch, depending how long I can keep the culture going.
Obviously it's your call - we all have to make tradeoffs in our brewing process based on our priorities and available resources.
fwiw, I boil starter water in a pot, stick the pot in the sink, add DME and nutes, lid the pot for a couple of minutes, then commence cooling. Once the wort hits pitch temperature I pour it in an e-flask, add the yeast, blast it with straight O2, then put it on the stir plate.
Never have had an evident infection...or a broken e-flask...
Cheers!
Never have had an evident infection...or a broken e-flask...
Cheers!
Very similar to what I do, including the O2 dosing.
A stainless (or aluminum) pot conducts heat way better than glass, it's made for cooking/boiling/handling and can't crack.
My variation on this is boiling the starter wort in a (stainless) pot, put on a clean (usually Starsanned) lid. The steam and retained heat will pasteurize the lid and rim area during the first few minutes. Place in the sink with cold water. Refresh the water and, if needed, again. Add a few ice packs to the last change of sink water to get it down the last 30-50°.
Note:
I typically prepare enough starter wort for 2 (or 3) starters. It takes a good hour to chill that volume down, so I plan ahead accordingly.
There are a few threads/posts where brewers pressure-canned their starter wort, but a dark precipitate formed inside the jars.
Yeah, it may save some money to mash then boil 3-5 gallons of regular or double gravity starter wort, tack it on to a brew day, then pressure can that for later use. I've been thinking about it. But altogether it's a lot of work...
I'm fortunate getting DME at a little over $2 a pound at our group grain buy, I buy 20 to 30 pounds at a time and be set for a couple years. That's less than a dollar per 2 liter starter. I make around 20-30 of such starters a year, including step starters reviving older yeast.
Right now I have 4 half-gallon pickle jars and 2 2-liter flasks with crashed yeast in my fridge. Each are 1.5 liter starters (the max volume I can use on my shakers).
I've built up pitchable lager starters for 5 gallons in 2 rounds in less than 2 weeks. 1 WLP sleeve in 1.5-liters (typically 3-4 months old), crashed, decanted, then split slurry over 3 1.5-liters again, crash, decant and pitch as is, or make a vitality starter on brew day. Crashing 1.5 liter lager starters takes 4-5 days. Your 5 liters may take an extra day or two.
Has your 5 gallon flask arrived?
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
Hmmm...I might be in the same boat. I have a 1L flask that I have used for many years both on an electric stove and now on my gas stove. No problems yet...but. I am not sure where I got it, but I know it was cheap (BOMEX, Made in China, volume marks are not very accurate). I have been thinking about a bigger one, but maybe I should look at boiling in a pot, chill, then moving to a 1 gal glass jug.
I am not a lager guy, I try to avoid starters by overpitching harvested yeast, and in general I am not a "4L starter" guy as I guess my practice has been more of a "vitality starter" (pitch a pack of liquid yeast into ~600ml of starter the day before I brew, then pitch the entire starter into a 5 gal batch).
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
@IslandLizard, FWIW I always do 2-step lager propagations in under a week. 24 hours on the stir plate, crash 48 hours, repeat.
brewswithshoes
Well-Known Member
Not to derail further, but NorthernBrewer typically has some 15% off deal going. Case of fast pitch for about $50. equals about 2 bucks a can. way less hassle than DME starters & now that they aren't owned by Evil Corp you can buy from them with a clear conscious.
EDIT: Actually a 15% deal going now that works for it. BREW15
https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/fast-pitch-grand-slam
EDIT: Actually a 15% deal going now that works for it. BREW15
https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/fast-pitch-grand-slam
Just curious if you were using a Trivet on your element, or was your flask directly on the element? I've boiled in my 5L flask using my electric stove, but read a trivet has to be used. I bent a filler TIG rod in a zigzag pattern put that on the burner. I'm thinking that a wire coat-hanger would work. I guess that separation is all you need. I know that the direct heat from an electric stove element can cause failure. I wish I had a gas stove, evidently the direct flame is easier on the glass. Makes me think I'll go back to the pot and pour method.
I worked for the scientific division of Owens/Illinois for over a decade and I could see directly heating an Erlenmeyer flask on a flame or other heat source but given the generally sh*tty quality of glassware on the market today (even if it’s supposed to be borosilicate) I’d be very hesitant to do so.
When I don’t use Propper canned wort , which saves a lot of time, I heat my DME and water in a pot, boil for 5+ minutes and then chill in an ice bath before adding to my flask and pitching the yeast.
When I don’t use Propper canned wort , which saves a lot of time, I heat my DME and water in a pot, boil for 5+ minutes and then chill in an ice bath before adding to my flask and pitching the yeast.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
I repitch for a ridiculous number of generations, so I'm doing this whole propagation thing very occasionally anyway. Makes me think the Propper or other canned wort would not really be cost prohibitive by any stretch. But it has always given me the creeps because it's really only a solution to the problem under discussion here if you don't have to boil the dilution water (hey freaky side note autocorrupt just tried to turn dilution into dilithium!) and I'm sure I wouldn't trust doing that. So, how do you address this?
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
Wait, they're not run by Dr. Evil anymore?
How did I miss that news?
4-5 days? I have never had to go longer than 2 days. Usually afternoon on one day and pitch afternoon the next. They are usually perfectly clear on top, sometimes just a tiny bit hazy, but feel enough yeast has flocc'd.
If you are very lucky it won't break, but each heat cycle increases the chance.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
Thanks! That's awesome news.
I prefer to decant (mostly) clear starter beer, even if it takes a week. I usually plan on it. Especially with lager yeasts I want to harvest the population that stays in suspension longest. IMO, those are the ones that are still working/conditioning when the majority has flocced out.
That is a little sketchy. The flask was likely only contacting the element at three very small points due to how irregular those elements are (and flask bottoms aren't perfectly flat, either). I tried to do my first starter like that but felt uneasy about it and have since done all on the side burner on my grill. A very small, gentle flame is all that's needed to maintain a boil. I bring the wort to a boil in a pot on my stove, dump it in the flask that I preheat with hot water (probably not necessary), then boil on the grill. I like the idea of the boil and steam sanitizing the flask and foil on top.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
I only keep it for up to 48 hours because by then the yeast has packed down very hard and decanting is easier and the volume of slurry to collect smaller. After 24 hours on the stir plate, it's long past anything still being active. Usually it's settled pretty well in well under 24 hours, and once there's a clear separation between a yeast and a non yeast layer -- however loose the yeast layer -- anything suspended in the supernatant beer is almost certainly dead yeast, protein, or petite mutant cells.
We will see how long my steps take. Building up a few year old smacks. Smacking tonight before bed. Not brewing until 14-16th.
My reply was about how long I cold crash. I don't see any need to go 4-5 days as was mentioned.
When I do stepped starters I am starting from a frozen sample that starts with just 5 ml of yeast slurry from an overbuilt starter. I run that in .25 liters at 1.025 wort for a day. I usually do not decant that step. I then add a .75 liter 1.038 wort and run that for a day. This one I will cold crash for a day or two until almost totally clear on top. I then treat that as the same as a smack pack or vial of yeast. I then make my final starter from that. If an ale it is usually 2 liters or less. I cold crash that for a day or two. So if the last build up does not require another step, that takes about 7 days. I always allow and extra couple of days.
If I was doing a lager yeast, it would add another step so I would need at least 3 extra days.
Thanks, I need to try slanting yeast.
Not a big deal until you like a PC yeast.
Not a big deal until you like a PC yeast.
If you have undissolved DME in the bottom of the flask, it will probably break when heating. I broke both a 2L and a 5L within 5 minutes of each other because of this. (if you look carefully at the smaller flask, there is a diagaonal crack in the bottom back of it; it gave way dramatically while dummy was standing there with his camera). I used that 5L often for about 7 years before this.
"Today, on True Confessions" 
I dilute with bottled water. Sanitize the bottle before opening and dump in.
Just my style"Today, on True Confessions"
Man that stinks, I want to boil in the flask, but now.....
Guess I’m back to the boil in a pot. I’ve never had an infection with a starter. Guess the boil is overkill.
This is probably a safe bet. For many years my profession (software engineering) cycled into military heath (industrial hygiene and environmental health). The sanitation issues that they deal with related to water make me cringe a little, but I suspect there is a big difference between bottled water from the local Walmart and bottled water that has been shipped to Iraq.
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