5500w ULD element taking too long to heat

[Yambor44]

Maybe this will help some?

 

[ajdelange]

Okay. The wiring is correct inside the panel box; meaning it matches the diagram.

But the picture shows the red and green wires next to each other on the power in connector. On NEMA split phase plugs W and G are opposite at least the pins are unless G is in the center in which case I suppose the terminals could be adjacent. Can you confirm W to white and G to green? If you can then we have to go back to the list in #30.

 

[ajdelange]

The video confirms that the out light is on continuously (although the default cycle time is, I think, 100 seconds) so suspicion focuses, at this point on the external wiring or the SSR (given positive confirmation of the power connector wiring).

 

[jsguitar]

Reversing N and L1 gives

L2 - controller - L1 and N - heater - L1

and this also explains what he sees provided the controller is capable of operating with 240V primary power.

Yeah, that makes sense too. This PID does also operate at 240V.

 

[Yambor44]

The diagram shows

L2 - controller - N and L1 - heater - L2

Reversing N and L2 gives

N - controller - L1 and L1 - heater - N

The picture makes it clear that a hot and the neutral have been reversed. N and L2 explains what he is seeing. Reversing N and L1 gives

L2 - controller - L1 and N - heater - L1

and this also explains what he sees provided the controller is capable of operating with 240V primary power.

This is what I see on the diagram (in laymans terms ):

L2 (red) goes to SSR 1 which goes to the switch 1 and out 3 to PID 10, out 8 to SSR 4, out SSR 2 to the element plug.

N (white) goes to Switch one at 4, out 6 to PID 9

L1 (black) comes in and goes straight to element plug.

Here's a couple more pics from during the build. Maybe a better vantage point.

I really appreciate everyone's input and help!

 

[Yambor44]

Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post

Reversing N and L1 gives

L2 - controller - L1 and N - heater - L1

and this also explains what he sees provided the controller is capable of operating with 240V primary power.
Yeah, that makes sense too. This PID does also operate at 240V.

Yeah, that makes sense too. This PID does also operate at 240V.

So are you guys saying I need to have N (white) go straight over to element plug and L1 (black) go to switch one 4 out from 6 and over to PID 9?

This would make a ground, Neutral and hot (red) going to element?

 

[Yambor44]

The video confirms that the out light is on continuously (although the default cycle time is, I think, 100 seconds) so suspicion focuses, at this point on the external wiring or the SSR (given positive confirmation of the power connector wiring).

I am sure the power in wire is wired exactly like the power in outlet on the control panel.

How can I tell if I have the element wire wired wrong other than a meter?

 

[jsguitar]

Is there any way you can run out to a Home Depot and get a multimeter? I think trying to figure this out without one is just dangerous.

 

[ajdelange]

What we are trying to confirm is that the white wire from the input connector is connected to the terminal marked W, that the green wire is connected to the terminal marked G and that the other two (black and red) are connected to the X and Y terminals. We'll keep asking that question until we get an answer because that is the only way, other than measurement, that we might be able to figure out what's going on. I cannot see the terminal markings from the photographs.

But I agree with the sentiments about getting a meter.

 

[Jon73]

I kinda got lost here, what are you trying to figure out? 240 to the element?
My .02 cents, I'm running a 4500w uld off of an auber 4342 @ 120vac and I heated roughly 3 gallons to 145 in about 15 minutes and that is from 58 degrees starting temp. I don't know if that helps. I am curious how this thread goes as I just fried my pid and just ordered a 4352 with the ramp/soak option. The 4342 says it can handle up to 10 amp loads, I did the math and the element at 1/4 power was just under 10 amps. Well, tell that to the melted spot in the side of the pid. Now I'll go through a relay and hopefully nothing else will melt.

 

[Yambor44]

What we are trying to confirm is that the white wire from the input connector is connected to the terminal marked W, that the green wire is connected to the terminal marked G and that the other two (black and red) are connected to the X and Y terminals. We'll keep asking that question until we get an answer because that is the only way, other than measurement, that we might be able to figure out what's going on. I cannot see the terminal markings from the photographs.

But I agree with the sentiments about getting a meter.

and the other side showing Y which leaves only G for green down below.

Does this help or eliminate anything?

Let me throw this back in so you don't have to go back and look.

 

[jsguitar]

That looks right.

Can you post an internal pic of the plug that plugs into that also? It might help.

 

[Yambor44]

That looks right.

Can you post an internal pic of the plug that plugs into that also? It might help.

I may have found the culprit. Not sure yet though. I checked the ends of my element wire (the wire that runs from the element to the back of the control panel. When I took apart the Swicthcraft housing to double check the wiring, one end came completely off. so I am hoping one of those wire either were not making a good connection or not at all.

Could this cause the problem?

This is what I am using.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/switchcrafts-plug-outlet-option-369044/

 

[whoaru99]

If the wiring in the control exactly matches the schematic then it must be either in the output plug to element wiring/connections or the input plug/power supply connections.

What connector is that at the inlet? Have a brand and model number?

 

[Garyr2973]

That still must be a strange plug. Usually the "A" and "B" hots are at the 3 and 9 o'clock position and the neutral and ground are at the 12 and 6 position (if the plug is orientated straight"

 

[Garyr2973]

Even looking at the wiring diagram it shows the 2 hot wires across from each other but that's not how it appears to be wired in the picture of the actual plug.

 

[Garyr2973]

Oops. Guess I should have specified the blue ink pen part at the top of the page looks like a typical 220 plug.

 

[Yambor44]

Oops. Guess I should have specified the blue ink pen part at the top of the page looks like a typical 220 plug.

That's the Switch craft plug.

 

[Yambor44]

That looks right.

Can you post an internal pic of the plug that plugs into that also? It might help.

And I think THIS may be the problem? Notice the black and red are not where they should be compared to the power inlet pic above? Could it be this simple? If so, I assume just reverse them?

And just in case, the other end of the cord:

 

[whoaru99]

I agree the colors should match through the connectors so I'd swap them (re: second pic showing red in "X"), but that isn't the problem.

The wires in the big black plug look right.

At this point, assuming you've not run out and picked up a meter, I think re-checking the output plug and cord and element are about all that's left for physical inspection. I know you said one of the terminals is off...fix that, then ensure the wiring matches up going through the output jack and plug.

 

[Yambor44]

I agree the colors should match through the connectors so I'd swap them (re: second pic showing red in "X"), but that isn't the problem.

The wires in the big black plug look right.

Okay. Went ahead and swapped them. Will wait for my neighbor to get home around 8pm EST (2 hours) then I can check the power coming out of the wall.

 

[Yambor44]

We swapped out the 50A GFCI that was in the breaker box yesterday for a 30A GFCI. Is it possible the breaker was wired wrong when it was put back in? If so, would it have worked at all?

 

[mattd2]

Wouldn't that mean that only N and G are going to the PID though? It shouldn't be working. It might be an error on both sides of the input. I'm thinking the plug is also wired incorrectly.

I was just trying to figure out how the PID could be getting power and the element only getting 120V(if that's the case), hence the suggestion that L2 is actually N and N is actually L2. It seems to me that with the way this is wired that the PID/SSR might be switching neutral, creating the 120V opposite L1 at the element, with the swapped N and L2 lines providing power to the PID.

One thing is for sure, a multimeter is needed here!

Edit: wow this thread is going fast... just ignore me now!
Unless it is actually the other 2 that need swapping, then the PID would be getting 220V and still be working - but don't go changine anything based on that info

 

[jsguitar]

Unless it is actually the other 2 that need swapping, then the PID would be getting 220V and still be working - but don't go changine anything based on that info

Right, AJ pointed that out also and that makes sense.

My money (I mean maybe a dollar) is on the outlet that was recently changed.

 

[mattd2]

Right, AJ pointed that out also and that makes sense.

My money (I mean maybe a dollar) is on the outlet that was recently changed.

Yep I got my $0.02 on that one too
Yambor what was the reason for swapping out a 50A GFCI to a 30A gfci? Depending on what/if it was messed up it is likely that it would have worked with the sort of issues you are experiencing now. I would not use anything else on that circuit until you have verified it is wired correctly.
You hvae been lucky that if it is wrong that:
A) The equipment rated for 220V got only 110V and
B) The equipment that you wire for 110V could handle the 220V it actually got.

Who replaced the breaker?

 

[Yambor44]

Yep I got my $0.02 on that one too
Yambor what was the reason for swapping out a 50A GFCI to a 30A gfci? Depending on what/if it was messed up it is likely that it would have worked with the sort of issues you are experiencing now. I would not use anything else on that circuit until you have verified it is wired correctly.
You hvae been lucky that if it is wrong that:
A) The equipment rated for 220V got only 110V and
B) The equipment that you wire for 110V could handle the 220V it actually got.

Who replaced the breaker?

We changed from a 50 to a 30 because I was told a 50 was too much and wouldn't trip if something went wrong before things burned up. I have the one 5500w ULD element, the PID, RTD and switches so probably my max is 25 amps?

A friend who is a contractor. From what I could tell, the wires went back to the 30 the same way they came from the 50. However, the wires were very large and were a tight fit. Maybe some of the strands didn't get in all they way? would this be a cause?

Hopefully I'll have that meter soon.

 

[mattd2]

We changed from a 50 to a 30 because I was told a 50 was too much and wouldn't trip if something went wrong before things burned up. I have the one 5500w ULD element, the PID, RTD and switches so probably my max is 25 amps?

A friend who is a contractor. From what I could tell, the wires went back to the 30 the same way they came from the 50. However, the wires were very large and were a tight fit. Maybe some of the strands didn't get in all they way? would this be a cause?

Hopefully I'll have that meter soon.

Whoever told you the 50A was "too big" doesn't know what they are talking about. The breaker is designed to trip to, mostly, protect the wiring in the walls from overheating and starting a fire if the circuit draws more load that what it can handle, i.e. If your wiring is designed to handle 50A then you want a 50A breaker and you do not want to run more that 50A off that circuit (I know there are 80% rules and all but this is the basic principle).
The GFCI is design to trip if a much smaller current leaks to ground and do so very fast, this reduces the hazard of electric shock that would kill someone. The current rating this trips at is defined in stadards and is completely seperate from the breaker's rating.
If it was me I would put the 50A breaker back in.

Without seeing the orignal and new breaker noone can be 100%. You would need to cross over the wires at the breaker to be a problem, which should be reasonably easy to figure out if it has been done. Can you get a photo of the new breaker wiring?

 

[Yambor44]

The white wire I am touching is the one that comes mounted to the breaker.

Breaker in bottom right of box. As you can see, very short run to the outlet. I had this outlet and 50amp originally installed for my 50L Speidel Braumeister and it worked fine then.

Also, in this picture, there is a 50A double throw GFCI on the left (white breaker) and if you flipped it facing the same as the 30, the wiring seems to match.

 

[mattd2]

Check that this datasheet is the correct one for your breaker http://www.geindustrial.com/publibr...Installation and Instruction|GEH-4338|generic
If it is it looks like the Nuetral and Line are in the wrong place, which is exactly what the issues you are having suggest.
Edit: hopefully the link is fixed

 

[jsguitar]

It's hard to see, but is the black hot wire in the terminal directly on top of the white pig tail that's attached to the breaker?

 

[Garyr2973]

When this was actually running, did you look at the light on the SSR to see if it was actually on all the time or if it was blinking quickly or slowly?

 

[jsguitar]

Check that this datasheet is the correct one for your breaker http://www.geindustrial.com/publibr...Installation and Instruction|GEH-4338|generic
If it is it looks like the Nuetral and Line are in the wrong place, which is exactly what the issues you are having suggest.
Edit: hopefully the link is fixed

Yeah, that link works and that has to be the issue.

 

[whoaru99]

According to that cut sheet the breaker lugs should be labeled "load neutral" and "load power". Should be easy enough to confirm the connections black to load power and white to load neutral.

 

[ajdelange]

While I was out eating turkey it looks as if you got it resolved. Note that you have 2 miswired breakers in your panel. Attached picture shows how these should be wired. The two phases go under the same screw in each of the two joined breakers which make up the tied unit. These are the screws that are in line with the breaker toggles. The neutral wires go into the screw where the white pigtail wire exits the assembly. Those are the wires that go up the left side of the breakers and over to the right in this picture. They are not aligned with the breaker toggles.

 

[Yambor44]

When this was actually running, did you look at the light on the SSR to see if it was actually on all the time or if it was blinking quickly or slowly?

Check out the video above in post #41

 

[Yambor44]

It's hard to see, but is the black hot wire in the terminal directly on top of the white pig tail that's attached to the breaker?

Yes.

 

[Yambor44]

While I was out eating turkey it looks as if you got it resolved. Note that you have 2 miswired breakers in your panel. Attached picture shows how these should be wired. The two phases go under the same screw in each of the two joined breakers which make up the tied unit. These are the screws that are in line with the breaker toggles. The neutral wires go into the screw where the white pigtail wire exits the assembly. Those are the wires that go up the left side of the breakers and over to the right in this picture. They are not aligned with the breaker toggles.

So, both the 30A and the 50A on the left row (white breaker) are both wired wrong?

If I leave the 30A in, how should this be wired?

Should I put this one back in? If so, how should it be wired?

 

[jsguitar]

Yes.

Yep, you need to switch the positions of the black and white wires on the breaker (don't change anything on the white pigtail, it is supposed to attach to your neutral bus as it appears it's doing).

 

[Yambor44]

Yep, you need to switch the positions of the black and white wires on the breaker (don't change anything on the white pigtail, it is supposed to attach to your neutral bus as it appears it's doing).

Okay. So white on top of the pigtail white?

Also, my test button trips the breaker, is this normal with the way they have this one wired wrong?

Also, should I put the 50 back in, or is it okay to leave the 30A?

 

[jsguitar]

BTW, just to be extra careful, are they marked as whoaru99 suggested?