5500w ULD element taking too long to heat

[Yambor44]

I agree the colors should match through the connectors so I'd swap them (re: second pic showing red in "X"), but that isn't the problem.

The wires in the big black plug look right.

Okay. Went ahead and swapped them. Will wait for my neighbor to get home around 8pm EST (2 hours) then I can check the power coming out of the wall.

 

[Yambor44]

We swapped out the 50A GFCI that was in the breaker box yesterday for a 30A GFCI. Is it possible the breaker was wired wrong when it was put back in? If so, would it have worked at all?

 

[mattd2]

Wouldn't that mean that only N and G are going to the PID though? It shouldn't be working. It might be an error on both sides of the input. I'm thinking the plug is also wired incorrectly.

I was just trying to figure out how the PID could be getting power and the element only getting 120V(if that's the case), hence the suggestion that L2 is actually N and N is actually L2. It seems to me that with the way this is wired that the PID/SSR might be switching neutral, creating the 120V opposite L1 at the element, with the swapped N and L2 lines providing power to the PID.

One thing is for sure, a multimeter is needed here!

Edit: wow this thread is going fast... just ignore me now!
Unless it is actually the other 2 that need swapping, then the PID would be getting 220V and still be working - but don't go changine anything based on that info

 

[jsguitar]

Unless it is actually the other 2 that need swapping, then the PID would be getting 220V and still be working - but don't go changine anything based on that info

Right, AJ pointed that out also and that makes sense.

My money (I mean maybe a dollar) is on the outlet that was recently changed.

 

[mattd2]

Right, AJ pointed that out also and that makes sense.

My money (I mean maybe a dollar) is on the outlet that was recently changed.

Yep I got my $0.02 on that one too
Yambor what was the reason for swapping out a 50A GFCI to a 30A gfci? Depending on what/if it was messed up it is likely that it would have worked with the sort of issues you are experiencing now. I would not use anything else on that circuit until you have verified it is wired correctly.
You hvae been lucky that if it is wrong that:
A) The equipment rated for 220V got only 110V and
B) The equipment that you wire for 110V could handle the 220V it actually got.

Who replaced the breaker?

 

[Yambor44]

Yep I got my $0.02 on that one too
Yambor what was the reason for swapping out a 50A GFCI to a 30A gfci? Depending on what/if it was messed up it is likely that it would have worked with the sort of issues you are experiencing now. I would not use anything else on that circuit until you have verified it is wired correctly.
You hvae been lucky that if it is wrong that:
A) The equipment rated for 220V got only 110V and
B) The equipment that you wire for 110V could handle the 220V it actually got.

Who replaced the breaker?

We changed from a 50 to a 30 because I was told a 50 was too much and wouldn't trip if something went wrong before things burned up. I have the one 5500w ULD element, the PID, RTD and switches so probably my max is 25 amps?

A friend who is a contractor. From what I could tell, the wires went back to the 30 the same way they came from the 50. However, the wires were very large and were a tight fit. Maybe some of the strands didn't get in all they way? would this be a cause?

Hopefully I'll have that meter soon.

 

[mattd2]

We changed from a 50 to a 30 because I was told a 50 was too much and wouldn't trip if something went wrong before things burned up. I have the one 5500w ULD element, the PID, RTD and switches so probably my max is 25 amps?

A friend who is a contractor. From what I could tell, the wires went back to the 30 the same way they came from the 50. However, the wires were very large and were a tight fit. Maybe some of the strands didn't get in all they way? would this be a cause?

Hopefully I'll have that meter soon.

Whoever told you the 50A was "too big" doesn't know what they are talking about. The breaker is designed to trip to, mostly, protect the wiring in the walls from overheating and starting a fire if the circuit draws more load that what it can handle, i.e. If your wiring is designed to handle 50A then you want a 50A breaker and you do not want to run more that 50A off that circuit (I know there are 80% rules and all but this is the basic principle).
The GFCI is design to trip if a much smaller current leaks to ground and do so very fast, this reduces the hazard of electric shock that would kill someone. The current rating this trips at is defined in stadards and is completely seperate from the breaker's rating.
If it was me I would put the 50A breaker back in.

Without seeing the orignal and new breaker noone can be 100%. You would need to cross over the wires at the breaker to be a problem, which should be reasonably easy to figure out if it has been done. Can you get a photo of the new breaker wiring?

 

[Yambor44]

The white wire I am touching is the one that comes mounted to the breaker.

Breaker in bottom right of box. As you can see, very short run to the outlet. I had this outlet and 50amp originally installed for my 50L Speidel Braumeister and it worked fine then.

Also, in this picture, there is a 50A double throw GFCI on the left (white breaker) and if you flipped it facing the same as the 30, the wiring seems to match.

 

[mattd2]

Check that this datasheet is the correct one for your breaker http://www.geindustrial.com/publibr...Installation and Instruction|GEH-4338|generic
If it is it looks like the Nuetral and Line are in the wrong place, which is exactly what the issues you are having suggest.
Edit: hopefully the link is fixed

 

[jsguitar]

It's hard to see, but is the black hot wire in the terminal directly on top of the white pig tail that's attached to the breaker?

 

[Garyr2973]

When this was actually running, did you look at the light on the SSR to see if it was actually on all the time or if it was blinking quickly or slowly?

 

[jsguitar]

Check that this datasheet is the correct one for your breaker http://www.geindustrial.com/publibr...Installation and Instruction|GEH-4338|generic
If it is it looks like the Nuetral and Line are in the wrong place, which is exactly what the issues you are having suggest.
Edit: hopefully the link is fixed

Yeah, that link works and that has to be the issue.

 

[whoaru99]

According to that cut sheet the breaker lugs should be labeled "load neutral" and "load power". Should be easy enough to confirm the connections black to load power and white to load neutral.

 

[ajdelange]

While I was out eating turkey it looks as if you got it resolved. Note that you have 2 miswired breakers in your panel. Attached picture shows how these should be wired. The two phases go under the same screw in each of the two joined breakers which make up the tied unit. These are the screws that are in line with the breaker toggles. The neutral wires go into the screw where the white pigtail wire exits the assembly. Those are the wires that go up the left side of the breakers and over to the right in this picture. They are not aligned with the breaker toggles.

 

[Yambor44]

When this was actually running, did you look at the light on the SSR to see if it was actually on all the time or if it was blinking quickly or slowly?

Check out the video above in post #41

 

[Yambor44]

It's hard to see, but is the black hot wire in the terminal directly on top of the white pig tail that's attached to the breaker?

Yes.

 

[Yambor44]

While I was out eating turkey it looks as if you got it resolved. Note that you have 2 miswired breakers in your panel. Attached picture shows how these should be wired. The two phases go under the same screw in each of the two joined breakers which make up the tied unit. These are the screws that are in line with the breaker toggles. The neutral wires go into the screw where the white pigtail wire exits the assembly. Those are the wires that go up the left side of the breakers and over to the right in this picture. They are not aligned with the breaker toggles.

So, both the 30A and the 50A on the left row (white breaker) are both wired wrong?

If I leave the 30A in, how should this be wired?

Should I put this one back in? If so, how should it be wired?

 

[jsguitar]

Yes.

Yep, you need to switch the positions of the black and white wires on the breaker (don't change anything on the white pigtail, it is supposed to attach to your neutral bus as it appears it's doing).

 

[Yambor44]

Yep, you need to switch the positions of the black and white wires on the breaker (don't change anything on the white pigtail, it is supposed to attach to your neutral bus as it appears it's doing).

Okay. So white on top of the pigtail white?

Also, my test button trips the breaker, is this normal with the way they have this one wired wrong?

Also, should I put the 50 back in, or is it okay to leave the 30A?

 

[jsguitar]

BTW, just to be extra careful, are they marked as whoaru99 suggested?

 

[mattd2]

That last photo explains how it got wired wrong. That looks to be live on the outer 2 nuetral in the middle (don't quote me though), which is how the new breaker has been wired.
By the way, should you be taking breakers out yourself (unless you are a ticketed sparky). Here in NZ it is a diffinate no-no to be removing breakers from a mains panel.

 

[Yambor44]

BTW, just to be extra careful, are they marked as whoaru99 suggested?

I don't see any markings.

 

[lschiavo]

The center terminal looks to be labeled neutral. You really need a meter.

 

[jsguitar]

You really need a meter.

This! Ok, dead horse beaten.

I'm hestitant to say anymore just in case. I wish you luck though.

 

[ajdelange]

Common sense will help you with the 30A breaker. It is quite plain that it is made up of two identical breakers joined together. One of these only has single screw terminal. The other has two. Wire red and black to the screw terminals that are the same on the two breakers. Wire the neutral (white) to the screw terminal that is just above the white wire permanently connected to the breaker. 'Above' here means if the breaker is sitting flat on its back.

Edit: stop press. The 50A breaker is different. On this one the two outside terminals are marked Load + and Load - and the middle terminal is marked Load N. Connect the red and black wires to the Load + and Load - terminals and the white wire to the Load N terminal.

 

[Yambor44]

The center terminal looks to be labeled neutral. You really need a meter.

Yeah. Guess I am done until I can get a pro here. Neighbor never showed up tonight so no meter.

I'll get my engineer friend over here and let him take care of it. I understand now what everyone is saying about the wiring, but if the other is wired wrong as well, I don't want to fool with them. I'd rather be on the safe side even if it means no brewing over the holiday weekend. Don't want to let you guys down by getting fried!

So, breaker going back in the way it is above as I know no fire hazard at this point that way, then someone qualified to check on it when I can get them out here.

I WILL keep everyone posted once that happens.

Thank you all very much for taking time out of your holiday to help me, it is much appreciated.

Rob

 

[mattd2]

Common sense will help you with the 30A breaker. It is quite plain that it is made up of two identical breakers joined together. One of these only has single screw terminal. The other has two. Wire red and black to the screw terminals that are the same on the two breakers. Wire the neutral (white) to the screw terminal that is just above the white wire permanently connected to the breaker. 'Above' here means if the breaker is sitting flat on its back.

Edit: stop press. The 50A breaker is different. On this one the two outside terminals are marked Load + and Load - and the middle terminal is marked Load N. Connect the red and black wires to the Load + and Load - terminals and the white wire to the Load N terminal.

Was just going to correct you, but looks like you did it yourself! This really is one of the fastest moving threads I have been involved in

 

[jsguitar]

BTW, regarding the meter, you can get one that will perform just fine for not much money at all or even get a used Fluke on eBay or something. I had someone give me their old Fluke. It's well worth it to learn how to use one (super easy) and will help you troubleshoot all kinds of things around the house as well.

 

[Yambor44]

Common sense will help you with the 30A breaker. It is quite plain that it is made up of two identical breakers joined together. One of these only has single screw terminal. The other has two. Wire red and black to the screw terminals that are the same on the two breakers. Wire the neutral (white) to the screw terminal that is just above the white wire permanently connected to the breaker. 'Above' here means if the breaker is sitting flat on its back.

Edit: stop press. The 50A breaker is different. On this one the two outside terminals are marked Load + and Load - and the middle terminal is marked Load N. Connect the red and black wires to the Load + and Load - terminals and the white wire to the Load N terminal.

Like this? I put the white wire on top of where the white pigtail comes out and the black where the white was.

also, the other breaker seems to be wired correctly based on the white wires being stacked, correct?

 

[ajdelange]

...but if the other is wired wrong as well, I don't want to fool with them.

My statement that the other was wired wrong was based on the assumption that both breakers were the GE one for which the link was supplied. Now that you have shown bigger pictures it is clear that this is not the case. Your problem with the GE breaker was caused because whoever wired it assumed that it was the same as the other breaker and wired it the same way which is incorrect for the GE breaker. We spotted that and showed you how to correctly wire the GE breaker but almost pushed you into making the same sort of error with the 50 Amp breaker. With the 50 amp breaker the terminals are H N H. With the 30 Amp breaker they are N H H.

All this aside I do think it would be best to let you qualified friend do the installation or reinstallation as the case may be. Make sure that he is aware that the terminal patterns are different.


For mattd2: Whether working on a panel yourself is legal or not depends on where you live. In blue (left leaning) jurisdictions where unions are strong it often is not. In red (conservative) jurisdictions it usually is. Inspections are required almost universally however regardless of who did the work.