3-in-1 "Boil Kettle, Jacketed Chiller, Conical Fermenter" by Brewha

[davehenry]

Great thread guys. I've been lurking here for some time reading about your successes with the Brew Ha. I came across the product this spring while working out ways to convert a conical into an electric brewpot. As it happens, Nathan works not far from my house and had one with him prior to shipping. I met up with him and viewed the BIAC up close in person. I vowed to purchase one by this fall but haven't got there yet.

Right now I'm working on my electrical outlets. I'm making other purchases including some Brewbucket fermenters because I brew outside on my deck or in my garage 2-3 days a month so will not use the Brewha for fermenting. I already use full volume mashing techniques via batch sparging so it should be easy equipment to step up to. I should have everything I nedd by Christmas time and will order my set up. Can't wait :rockin:

 

[jeffcosgrove]

I am looking into this system and hope that you guys can answer some questions. I want to brew 10 gallon batches for my standard brews but also want to do 5 gal batches for experimental or seasonal type beers. I'm not sure if I should get a separate mash tun. In addition, since I've always batched sparged I'ts hard for me to convince myself that no sparge will produce the same beer due to mash thickness.

Has anyone done a 5 gal batch on the 20 gal system? Any issues with all of the deadspace? Have to put in more water and boil off more?

I brew about 50% lagers and was wondering what size (hp) aquarium chiller I would need to be able to bring down to 33 F? My basement is around 68 deg in the summer.

Do aquarium chillers with heaters allow you to set the temperature that low, or do you need an external controller?

Thanks.

 

[davehenry]

I do both sparge and no sparge with my 15 gallon cooler and the only difference that I find with no sparge is a slightly maltier finish and about 3-5% less efficiency. I would assume that recirculating the wort with this system would lessen the efficiency margins.

I'm also interested in how five gallon batches work in the medium BIAC. I still haven't decided between the small and medium versions. I normally brew five gallon batches, sometimes two a day. But I could see myself doing tens. The five gallon system is way more portable and might work better for me as well.


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[jeffcosgrove]

I satisfied myself that mash thickness is not an issue with some research:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ncy_in_single_infusion_mashing#Mash_thickness

I also found that the Teco TK-1000 does allow you to have a setpoint down to 32 deg. It also looks like this is more than adequate to cool down to 32 deg in my basement since it will drop a 55 gal system 39 deg. Where can I find a comparable glycol chiller with accessible tank to install a heater?

EDIT - The temp display goes down to 32 deg, but when you read the manual the lowest setpoint is 41 deg. Anyone know of an aquarium chiller that will go down to 33 deg?

I would still like to hear any experiences anyone has had making 5 (I guess 6 gal is minimum) batches on the medium BIAC.

 

[cuda6pak]

Well, pulled the trigger yesterday. my medium BIAC should be shipping sometime next week Cancelled the TCV solenoid and sub'd it with the keg to fermentor hose. Still waffling between the glycol chiller and Reef chiller, but I think my mind is switched back to a TECO TK-500 (or 1000) and a small 10 gallon cooler. I like the built in heater and essentially dual stage temp controller, so I can just set the recirculating water to ferment temp and be done with it.

I'll defer the 5 gallon mashes to somebody with the system. As mentioned the biggest problem with that is the dead space below the collander.

jeff - I also assumed the TK would go down to 32 based on what it said. Sucks it's only 41*. But I suppose a 41* cold crash should be able to drop out most stuff.

What I don't quite understand with the glycol chiller, is that say you have the chiller constantly recirculating and the cold side hooked up to to say an STC-1000 reading beer temp set to 60*, but the LCD internal set point on the chiller to 40*, will it drop the recirculating water down to 40* until it hits the set point of the STC-1000? Or will it basically bypass the internal LCD controller all together and bring the water down as cold as possible (thus freezing the unit if only using water) until the STC-1000 kicks it off?

 

[jeffcosgrove]

EDIT I read your post wrong. Once the STC-1000 sees that the temperature of the beer is 60* it shuts down power to the chiller and you are just pumping water through a powerless chiller with the aquarium setup. So that raises the question how do you run a glycol chiller with an internal pump if you want to use an external controller to be able to program temperature schedules? I think you would want to install a check valve when running with an internal pump. Any glycol chillers without an internal pump?

Someone had mentioned an inline Hydor heater and I saw a bunch of bad reviews about them, but I did find this:

http://www.aquariumplants.com/Lifegard_Aquatics_Single_Heater_Module_AF_92_p/pen30318.htm

The problem I have with the glycol chillers is I don't know the specs of the pump and what kind of pressure drop would go through this and the fermenter jacket. I also wanted to spec out a pump myself for fun.

 

[jeffcosgrove]

If you read the TK-1000 manual it shows that you can set up to 19 deg offset to compensate for probe differential. I wonder if you could cheat the chiller into going below 41* this way or if this is just for temp display purposes?

http://www.tecous.com/files/TANK_TK-500_1000_2000_Manual.pdf

 

[Jimmy82]

EDIT I read your post wrong. Once the STC-1000 sees that the temperature of the beer is 60* it shuts down power to the chiller and you are just pumping water through a powerless chiller with the aquarium setup. So that raises the question how do you run a glycol chiller with an internal pump if you want to use an external controller to be able to program temperature schedules? I think you would want to install a check valve when running with an internal pump. Any glycol chillers without an internal pump?.

I use the STC-1000 only to monitor the chiller bath, not the wort temp. I use the Ranco that comes with the BIAC to monitor wort temp, but it doesn't adjust anything..just displays the actual temp. Even at the peak of fermentation, the temp never budged even a degree over the 10 or so batches I've brewed.

 

[jeffcosgrove]

What model is your chiller? Do you have a check valve installed, or do you keep the total water amount less than the resevoir amount?

 

[cuda6pak]

EDIT I read your post wrong. Once the STC-1000 sees that the temperature of the beer is 60* it shuts down power to the chiller and you are just pumping water through a powerless chiller with the aquarium setup. So that raises the question how do you run a glycol chiller with an internal pump if you want to use an external controller to be able to program temperature schedules? I think you would want to install a check valve when running with an internal pump. Any glycol chillers without an internal pump?

But will it recirculate 40* water as per the internal set point on the actual glycol chiller until the wort temp hits 60*? Or will it continually run the compressor on the glycol chiller as cold as it possibly can go (ie below freezing) until that 60* wort temp is hit?

jimmy82 - where did you run your STC-1000 temp probe into your glycol chiller? Cut a hole in the cap to the tank or is there a spot open to set it inside? Not sure how tanks really work on glycol chillers as I've never seen one. Not sure if they are open to the atmosphere making filling easy, have a cap, or sealed off, etc.

 

[Jimmy82]

What model is your chiller? Do you have a check valve installed, or do you keep the total water amount less than the resevoir amount?

No check valve installed and I have the jacket full, plus the reservoir full. If the power goes off on the chiller it doesn't flow back into the reservoir (if that's what you're thinking of?)

I'm honestly not sure of the model of the chiller - couldn't find much for markings on it.

 

[Jimmy82]

But will it recirculate 40* water as per the internal set point on the actual glycol chiller until the wort temp hits 60*? Or will it continually run the compressor on the glycol chiller as cold as it possibly can go (ie below freezing) until that 60* wort temp is hit?

jimmy82 - where did you run your STC-1000 temp probe into your glycol chiller? Cut a hole in the cap to the tank or is there a spot open to set it inside? Not sure how tanks really work on glycol chillers as I've never seen one. Not sure if they are open to the atmosphere making filling easy, have a cap, or sealed off, etc.

I just ran it in with the probe that was built into the glycol chiller. I modified the wiring slightly to bypass the built in probe and utilize the STC probe instead. On the chiller I have, there are lots of spots you can pop a probe through to have it sitting in the reservoir. There are actually 10 or so "caps" that pop out on the chiller I have, various sizes, and they give you access to the reservoir. There is a cover to go over top of all of that to make it look nice, but I generally don't have it on.

 

[limulus]

Comments and Questions for those using these systems

This is a really good thread full of lots of great experience. I was planning to buy some pro equipment next month and put it into storage until I find a place that can be used for a small commercial operation...and find somebody to help me run it.

I was going to buy a 3bbl electric brew house from Stout and two 7bbl jacketed conicals and 2 7bbl jacketed BBTs next month. But I've been looking at these BIAC systems for a few days now and two of the large BIACs would brew 3BBL for about $11.4k. Now if I understand how this whole thing works, I could just buy additional 3-in-1s in multiples of two and add another 3bbl, correct? I'm not sure how big the large system is, but I can imagine it being just maybe 1.5x the diameter of a 55g drum and probably about 1.5x taller. That would fit quite easily into my 3-car garage and keep my wife's car in there with room to spare until I find a suitable space to set it up.

Like others, I like the sealed nature of these things and I hate the clean-up after I'm finished brewing. But who really likes cleaning their brewing equipment? I have to also agree that Nathan responds extremely fast and I have been impressed with that.

I currently home brew on a system similar but just not sealed. It uses a 10gal kettle with the bottom cut out and a false bottom inside a 15gal kettle. I heat with a propane burner and then recirc through a RIMS tube. It works great and you can sparge. I use a 10gal beverage cooler as an HLT when I want to sparge and I use an electric hoist mounted to my garage ceiling to lift the inner MT. I also lift/lower that to control the flow of wort or sparge water. Even going 100% no-sparge, I get 70-72% efficiency.

So for those of you who have used these for a while, do you see any potential in the large system being used commercially for a small start-up as advertised? Fermentation and conditioning/BBT are always the bottleneck in a commercial brewery and this is no different. You just add more. It also seems to me that you can operate in a much smaller space with this. The one downside is the cool factor of a 3-piece brewhouse and the big stainless platform that you don't get with this. So if you were giving a brewery tour, this would definitely allow you to give a new experience in brewhouse/cellaring techniques to those who have toured small breweries and seen the traditional brewhouse.

I envision using the large 55g systems with a commercial tankless water heater if I want to sparge. For cooling, a small glycol system. Keeping them warm in winter would be done with some sort of electric HLT tank. Am I missing something, or could this work?

 

[adman]

Thanks to everyone in this thread for sharing their experiences, particularly MeetsCriteria and Jimmy82. I have a question for MeetsCriteria or anyone else who has a medium BIAC with the Stout Tanks racking arm: what is the minimum amount of liquid left in the cone when using the racking arm? For anyone who does not have the racking arm, how much liquid is left in the bottom of the cone when you transfer from the racking port?

Thanks!

 

[Jimmy82]

Thanks to everyone in this thread for sharing their experiences, particularly MeetsCriteria and Jimmy82. I have a question for MeetsCriteria or anyone else who has a medium BIAC with the Stout Tanks racking arm: what is the minimum amount of liquid left in the cone when using the racking arm? For anyone who does not have the racking arm, how much liquid is left in the bottom of the cone when you transfer from the racking port?

Thanks!

I don't have the racking arm, but would guess it's about 2-4 liters without it. It's typically all hop sludge (I throw my pellet hops directly in the beer and don't use the baskets). I haven't "required" the racking arm, but it could likely be a nice addition if you wanted to buy it. I'll probably get one down the road.

 

[MeetsCriteria]

Thanks to everyone in this thread for sharing their experiences, particularly MeetsCriteria and Jimmy82. I have a question for MeetsCriteria or anyone else who has a medium BIAC with the Stout Tanks racking arm: what is the minimum amount of liquid left in the cone when using the racking arm? For anyone who does not have the racking arm, how much liquid is left in the bottom of the cone when you transfer from the racking port?

Thanks!

I just happen to be brewing right now so thought I would check. This is for the 16 gal 3-in-1 mind you so may be n/a for the current mod. Nevertheless...

From bottom of the racking arm to empty was 30 oz.

From the bottom of the racking arm to the racking port was 38 oz.

Hope this helps! I took a pic but can't post just yet...

 

[cuda6pak]

How are you guys cleaning your 3-in-1? Trying to figure out an econominal way without using too much water to fill it for soaking. Anybody using a CIP ball? Soaking/recirculating with the full 20 gal? Less?

 

[MeetsCriteria]

How are you guys cleaning your 3-in-1? Trying to figure out an econominal way without using too much water to fill it for soaking. Anybody using a CIP ball? Soaking/recirculating with the full 20 gal? Less?

I just clean it like regular SS. So easy. Just need a scouring pad (synthetic) and bar keeper's friend for recalcitrant deposits. Then I rinse with RO water and dry with a towel. Very simple.

 

[nackedei]

What are y'all doing for oxygenation in the thing? While there's some shaking going on in one of the videos posted, that's not gonna cut it for most of us.

I was hoping to keep it part of the closed system, so I was looking at morebeer's tri clover diffusion stone wand, but it's only 6", and that won't do coming down in from the lid. An inline set-up with the pump connecting the racking port to the lid is one option, but it's expensive and seemingly a pain in the ass.

Thoughts?

 

[limulus]

What are y'all doing for oxygenation in the thing? While there's some shaking going on in one of the videos posted, that's not gonna cut it for most of us.

I was hoping to keep it part of the closed system, so I was looking at morebeer's tri clover diffusion stone wand, but it's only 6", and that won't do coming down in from the lid. An inline set-up with the pump connecting the racking port to the lid is one option, but it's expensive and seemingly a pain in the ass.

Thoughts?

I asked Nathan about that in a recent email and he is aware of the need for this. I think he is working on this at least as an option.

 

[knotabyte]

Thanks for all the discussion, I Just order a small BIAC, delivered January. In the mean time I am making a PID controller (Overkill) to pass the time. I will update my progress.

KnotAByte

 

[limulus]

Thanks for all the discussion, I Just order a small BIAC, delivered January. In the mean time I am making a PID controller (Overkill) to pass the time. I will update my progress.

KnotAByte

Congratulations! I think you made a good choice. The BIAC to me seems far superior to the Blichmann Breweasy and the Speidel Braumeister.

 

[Jimmy82]

What are y'all doing for oxygenation in the thing? While there's some shaking going on in one of the videos posted, that's not gonna cut it for most of us.

I was hoping to keep it part of the closed system, so I was looking at morebeer's tri clover diffusion stone wand, but it's only 6", and that won't do coming down in from the lid. An inline set-up with the pump connecting the racking port to the lid is one option, but it's expensive and seemingly a pain in the ass.

Thoughts?

I've used the olive oil method and haven't found it to negatively affect the final product. My plan is to gear up a triclover connection that extends from the lid, down into the wort with a diffuser stone. I'll have a connection on top to attach o2.

 

[Jimmy82]

How are you guys cleaning your 3-in-1? Trying to figure out an econominal way without using too much water to fill it for soaking. Anybody using a CIP ball? Soaking/recirculating with the full 20 gal? Less?

I clean by hand with a scrubbing pad. I usually spray it down to get most of the crud off and then dump it. Then I scrub it down the the scrubbing pad and some PBW, spray it down and dump again. Then I usually spray it down and dump a final time. It's about 5-10 minutes total from the time I start until I'm finished. All vavles/hardware/gaskets etc get tossed in a bucket of PBW to soak. I typically use about 5 gallons of water to clean the BIAC.

Every 5 or 6 brews I will give the BIAC a good soak with PBW, run the element to heat everything up, and recirculate with the pump.

 

[nackedei]

I've used the olive oil method and haven't found it to negatively affect the final product. My plan is to gear up a triclover connection that extends from the lid, down into the wort with a diffuser stone. I'll have a connection on top to attach o2.

Have you found a wand-clover fitting that's long enough (I haven't), or do you mean you're going to set one up via welding/compression? Asking because this beast should be arriving on Monday!

 

[Jimmy82]

Have you found a wand-clover fitting that's long enough (I haven't), or do you mean you're going to set one up via welding/compression? Asking because this beast should be arriving on Monday!

I haven't really thought about it too much as of yet - I use mostly dry yeast so aeration isn't necessary. With that being said, I would like to have something geared up to pump o2 into the wort and I'm just thinking some sort of triclover with an extension down to wort level with a diffusion stone attached.

 

[limulus]

After the beer is chilled, could you just attach something like this and circulate the beer through it? http://morebeer.com/products/pro-series-oxygenation-assembly.html It would have to be done after it is cooled so the O2 would be absorbed. It is not inexpensive, but neither is the BIAC. They really need to add this as an option!

 

[limulus]

Here is a better option:
http://conical-fermenter.com/SPOX-Oxygenation-Aeration-Assembly.html

 

[Jimmy82]

Personally, I'd prefer something that drops in from the top and doesn't require recirculation. The recirculation is just one more step, and more cleaning. Having something that you can drop directly into the wort from above seems like the most simple method to me.

 

[limulus]

Personally, I'd prefer something that drops in from the top and doesn't require recirculation. The recirculation is just one more step, and more cleaning. Having something that you can drop directly into the wort from above seems like the most simple method to me.

My existing stone is attached to a length of oxygen hose without the stainless wand that I just drop into my SS Brewtech conicals for a few seconds. Is that all you want or are you looking for something that attaches via TC and keeps the fermenter sealed? If that is the case, you may wind up with a clogged stone if it stays in the wort during the entire fermentation.

I'm going to buy the O2 setup from Stout. I'm ordering 2 large BIACs and 4 additional 3 in 1 units. I have to do it by tomorrow to get in Feb or I won't get delivery until May due to his manufacturer being on holiday the entire month of February. For me, May is probably OK, but there is a potential price increase of a few percent in 2015.