Munich Helles 2011 1st Place HBT- Light lager- Augustiner Lagerbier Hell

[moreb33rplz]

Now that's a tasty looking beer right der

 

[rtstrider]

Now that's a tasty looking beer right der

This is my hell brew lol Going to rebrew with a very healthy pitch of wlp838 next time and see how it comes out. This batch was close but it still needs to be done right

 

[jdubdvdt]

Now that's a tasty looking beer right der

I concur.

This is my hell brew lol Going to rebrew with a very healthy pitch of wlp838 next time and see how it comes out. This batch was close but it still needs to be done right

Now you got me thinking this might be the route I go. How are you liking the conical fermenter? I heard they're pretty flimsy.

 

[eliastheodosis]

I concur.

Now you got me thinking this might be the route I go. How are you liking the conical fermenter? I heard they're pretty flimsy.

I enjoy mine quite a bit. I'm interested to hear if @rtstrider has any comparison to the original gen 3.

Can I ask...flimsy as compared to what? It's no SS vessel, of course, but for a pressure-capable every day fermentor mine have taken quite a bit of use with no issue. The occasional leaking post to chase down and tighten but it's solid. It's light and you can accidentally push it around a little but with a thin PET fermentor I think that comes with the territory. If you want to own it forever then buy SS. I don't regret the purchase at all, though. And I like these because you get to watch the magic happen. Not limited to just sniffing the airlock any more

 

[rtstrider]

I concur.

Now you got me thinking this might be the route I go. How are you liking the conical fermenter? I heard they're pretty flimsy.

It's basically a big soda bottle. I love it and the pressure fermenting capability. The fact I can get lagers fermented, cold crashed, packaged, and ready to drink in around 14 days is huge! I followed the kegland pressure fermenting article and start around 54F for 24 hours and bump up 4F each day until it hits 66F then let it ride. It's set to 15psi the whole way. Also the container at the bottom has made yeast harvesting easier too!

 

[rtstrider]

I enjoy mine quite a bit. I'm interested to hear if @rtstrider has any comparison to the original gen 3.

Can I ask...flimsy as compared to what? It's no SS vessel, of course, but for a pressure-capable every day fermentor mine have taken quite a bit of use with no issue. The occasional leaking post to chase down and tighten but it's solid. It's light and you can accidentally push it around a little but with a thin PET fermentor I think that comes with the territory. If you want to own it forever then buy SS. I don't regret the purchase at all, though. And I like these because you get to watch the magic happen. Not limited to just sniffing the airlock any more

I haven't used a Gen 3 so I can't really comment too much there. I will say there was a learning curve moving to the Gen 4 from a 3 tier system. One of the issues I ran into right out of the gate was insanely high efficiency. The first 2 brews were right over 90% and were like drinking rocket fuel lol Had to dial back the crush a bit to help with circulation and lower efficiency.

 

[jdubdvdt]

I enjoy mine quite a bit. I'm interested to hear if @rtstrider has any comparison to the original gen 3.

Can I ask...flimsy as compared to what? It's no SS vessel, of course, but for a pressure-capable every day fermentor mine have taken quite a bit of use with no issue. The occasional leaking post to chase down and tighten but it's solid. It's light and you can accidentally push it around a little but with a thin PET fermentor I think that comes with the territory. If you want to own it forever then buy SS. I don't regret the purchase at all, though. And I like these because you get to watch the magic happen. Not limited to just sniffing the airlock any more

Sorry, that question should have been elaborated on. I have used the PET Better bottles. I guess I should have clarified my question more. I heard the conical fermenter with the collection container/hardware seemed flimsy. I currently only use glass carboys, but am looking for something I can pressure ferment in, pressure transfer, but yeast harvesting with the collection container is a huge bonus for me. I would definitely have to build a bigger fermentation chamber because I am using an old freezer.

It's basically a big soda bottle. I love it and the pressure fermenting capability. The fact I can get lagers fermented, cold crashed, packaged, and ready to drink in around 14 days is huge! I followed the kegland pressure fermenting article and start around 54F for 24 hours and bump up 4F each day until it hits 66F then let it ride. It's set to 15psi the whole way. Also the container at the bottom has made yeast harvesting easier too!

The pressure fermenting and pressure transferring is a huge bonus. I am somewhat considering the non-collection variety because I am height constrained in my fermentation chamber.

I haven't used a Gen 3 so I can't really comment too much there. I will say there was a learning curve moving to the Gen 4 from a 3 tier system. One of the issues I ran into right out of the gate was insanely high efficiency. The first 2 brews were right over 90% and were like drinking rocket fuel lol Had to dial back the crush a bit to help with circulation and lower efficiency.

Is this about the Brewzilla in general here? I brewed my saison on my OG Grainfather in February and the same saison a few weeks ago. My efficiency was so high on the Brewzilla Gen 4 I thought I had the final water volume wrong. WILD. I think I hit 90% without paying much attention to it.

 

[fluketamer]

i have a bunch of 2 row hanging around i am going to try this with 34/70 and see how it comes out

 

[jdubdvdt]

i have a bunch of 2 row hanging around i am going to try this with 34/70 and see how it comes out

Let us know how it turns out. I have some 34/70 sitting here.

 

[rtstrider]

Let us know how it turns out. I have some 34/70 sitting here.

I'd like to chime in and recommend Omega German Lager 1 DKO. I've been using that strain and have had really good results. 34/70 is hit or miss and WLP830 is decent warm fermented. That DKO strain, fermented low, is nice! I always get a weird twang when fermenting 34/70 and WLP830 low regardless of pitch rate. That strain is quickly becoming my house lager strain! It also repitches well too which is not something I've experienced with 34/70.

 

[jdubdvdt]

I'd like to chime in and recommend Omega German Lager 1 DKO. I've been using that strain and have had really good results. 34/70 is hit or miss and WLP830 is decent warm fermented. That DKO strain, fermented low, is nice! I always get a weird twang when fermenting 34/70 and WLP830 low regardless of pitch rate. That strain is quickly becoming my house lager strain! It also repitches well too which is not something I've experienced with 34/70.

I will see if my local shop has it. Or I might be waiting until winter-ish time to order it. Thanks for the suggestion. I guess that one is the engineered version. OYL437

 

[jdubdvdt]

Back to the recipe. It is calling for Hallertau. Is this Mittelfruh or Hersbrucker? I presume not Traditional, since it is listed at 3.8 AAU which is closest to the current Mittelfruh offerings.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Sorry, that question should have been elaborated on. I have used the PET Better bottles. I guess I should have clarified my question more. I heard the conical fermenter with the collection container/hardware seemed flimsy. I currently only use glass carboys, but am looking for something I can pressure ferment in, pressure transfer, but yeast harvesting with the collection container is a huge bonus for me. I would definitely have to build a bigger fermentation chamber because I am using an old freezer.

Totally fine, just looking for more detail The plastic is overall thinner than a PET Better Bottle but it's thicker in the right places to me. It's true that it's light and you can push the whole thing around some if you're not careful. If you're mindful of your basic physics and use sense instead of force, though, then it's not a problem. Overall construction feels sturdy for the weight. I also think the hardware collection on the latest version of the Fermzilla looks like a big improvement. That was actually my question to rtstrider but I should have also been clearer myself Let me see if I can fix it.

I haven't used a Gen 3 so I can't really comment too much there. I will say there was a learning curve moving to the Gen 4 from a 3 tier system. One of the issues I ran into right out of the gate was insanely high efficiency. The first 2 brews were right over 90% and were like drinking rocket fuel lol Had to dial back the crush a bit to help with circulation and lower efficiency.

Sorry for the confusion, but I actually meant the past version of the Fermzilla tri-conical. There is a 3.0 version with an older style collection jar that everybody hates. I've got that one. They recently released a new 3.2 Fermzilla version with an updated collection jar. You've got the updated version and I was curious if you have experience with the old version to compare. Thanks for all the other info too!

 

[eliastheodosis]

Back to the recipe. It is calling for Hallertau. Is this Mittelfruh or Hersbrucker? I presume not Traditional, since it is listed at 3.8 AAU which is closest to the current Mittelfruh offerings.

I assume they mean Mittelfruh. That would be my choice too, but I think Hersbrucker would work just fine if you prefer it.

 

[rtstrider]

Totally fine, just looking for more detail The plastic is overall thinner than a PET Better Bottle but it's thicker in the right places to me. It's true that it's light and you can push the whole thing around some if you're not careful. If you're mindful of your basic physics and use sense instead of force, though, then it's not a problem. Overall construction feels sturdy for the weight. I also think the hardware collection on the latest version of the Fermzilla looks like a big improvement. That was actually my question to rtstrider but I should have also been clearer myself Let me see if I can fix it.


Sorry for the confusion, but I actually meant the past version of the Fermzilla tri-conical. There is a 3.0 version with an older style collection jar that everybody hates. I've got that one. They recently released a new 3.2 Fermzilla version with an updated collection jar. You've got the updated version and I was curious if you have experience with the old version to compare. Thanks for all the other info too!

This is the only version I've ever played around with. So far I absolutely love it!

 

[rtstrider]

I will see if my local shop has it. Or I might be waiting until winter-ish time to order it. Thanks for the suggestion. I guess that one is the engineered version. OYL437

Yep that's the bioengineered version and the best version of 34/70 yet imo. Omega did a really good job with that strain! I feel your yeast shipping pains. Living in FL really limits the time of year you can get yeast shipped down to a few months.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Have you used WLP860 Munich Helles? Not much info out here on HBT.

 

[rtstrider]

Have you used WLP860 Munich Helles? Not much info out here on HBT.

I've never used the white labs variant, but, I've used Omega Bayern which is supposedly the same strain. That's a good strain! I do want to get my hands on one of the WLP860 dry yeast packs and prop it up in a starter to see how it stacks up

 

[eliastheodosis]

Have you used WLP860 Munich Helles? Not much info out here on HBT.

I've never used the white labs variant, but, I've used Omega Bayern which is supposedly the same strain. That's a good strain! I do want to get my hands on one of the WLP860 dry yeast packs and prop it up in a starter to see how it stacks up

Basically same as @rtstrider on this one. That's supposedly the Augustiner strain and it makes a really nice helles. I saw the dry version go up on Yeastman a couple weeks ago and Morebeer has it now too. I am very excited about that. I'm sure more stores will pick it up soon.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Yep that's the bioengineered version and the best version of 34/70 yet imo. Omega did a really good job with that strain! I feel your yeast shipping pains. Living in FL really limits the time of year you can get yeast shipped down to a few months.

Basically same as @rtstrider on this one. That's supposedly the Augustiner strain and it makes a really nice helles. I saw the dry version go up on Yeastman a couple weeks ago and Morebeer has it now too. I am very excited about that. I'm sure more stores will pick it up soon.

My local shop has WLP860 in stock. I might have to try it out. If it works out, I might harvest and do a side by side with the dry yeast and see if I can tell any differences. Pretty busy summer planned, but hope I can at least get this batch done with the liquid yeast.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Method: All Grain
Style: Munich Helles
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Pre Boil Size: 7.8 gallons
Post Boil Size: 5.5 gallons
Post Boil Gravity: 1.051 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)
Calories: 169 calories (Per 12oz)
Carbs: 19.2 g (Per 12oz)

Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 4.7%
IBU (tinseth): 18.4
SRM (morey): 4.2

9 lb	US - Pale 2-Row		37	1.8	88.9%
0.50 lb	American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt)		33	1.8	4.9%
0.50 lb	Munich Malt		36.8	7.87	4.9%
0.13 lb	Weyermann - Melanoidin		34.5	27	1.2%

1.25 oz

Hallertau Mittelfruh

Pellet

3.75

Boil

60 min

18.4

100%

White Labs - Munich Helles Yeast WLP860
Amount: 1 Each Cost: Attenuation (avg): 70% Flocculation: Medium Optimum Temp: 48 - 52 °F

From Brewer's Friend. I just use the water at Publix, have been for over 10 years and never had an issue. Should I do anything to adjust the recipe or the water? I have never had the water tested, but the old homebrew shop was adamant that it was the best way to get good results with low effort and I never changed. I will do some research on my fermentation schedule.

 

[rtstrider]

Method: All Grain
Style: Munich Helles
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Pre Boil Size: 7.8 gallons
Post Boil Size: 5.5 gallons
Post Boil Gravity: 1.051 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)
Calories: 169 calories (Per 12oz)
Carbs: 19.2 g (Per 12oz)

Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 4.7%
IBU (tinseth): 18.4
SRM (morey): 4.2

9 lb	US - Pale 2-Row		37	1.8	88.9%
0.50 lb	American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt)		33	1.8	4.9%
0.50 lb	Munich Malt		36.8	7.87	4.9%
0.13 lb	Weyermann - Melanoidin		34.5	27	1.2%

1.25 oz

Hallertau Mittelfruh

Pellet

3.75

Boil

60 min

18.4

100%

White Labs - Munich Helles Yeast WLP860
Amount: 1 Each Cost: Attenuation (avg): 70% Flocculation: Medium Optimum Temp: 48 - 52 °F

From Brewer's Friend. I just use the water at Publix, have been for over 10 years and never had an issue. Should I do anything to adjust the recipe or the water? I have never had the water tested, but the old homebrew shop was adamant that it was the best way to get good results with low effort and I never changed. I will do some research on my fermentation schedule.

I got lucky and had a brewery open about 6 doors down from the house. They got the ward labs report and our water is pretty much bare as is so it's perfect for light brews and lagers. The most TDS I've ever pulled unfiltered is in the high 30's which is insane. I moved to only using tap water with campden and adjusting ph with lactic acid. One of our local breweries is pulling in gold in FL beer championships and they really do nothing with the water is what I found out. If it's good enough to pull gold state wide then it's good enough for my homebrewery

 

[jdubdvdt]

I got lucky and had a brewery open about 6 doors down from the house. They got the ward labs report and our water is pretty much bare as is so it's perfect for light brews and lagers. The most TDS I've ever pulled unfiltered is in the high 30's which is insane. I moved to only using tap water with campden and adjusting ph with lactic acid. One of our local breweries is pulling in gold in FL beer championships and they really do nothing with the water is what I found out. If it's good enough to pull gold state wide then it's good enough for my homebrewery

That's awesome. We are on Well. So no chlorine, but it's pretty hard and the pH is definitely way out of whack. I may send it off. Anything I can do to make brewday more simple and less money.

The FG on my recipe will be quite a bit higher if I hit a high efficiency. I suppose if I hit a higher OG, I might need to add AE to the secondary. We will see.

 

[jdubdvdt]

picking up everything for this recipe tonight. Hoping I will get some time by mid next week to brew it. Pretty excited for this one.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Finally brewed this batch.
Had some issues with my Brewzilla that were probably my fault. I was unable to sparge at all as a result. My OG was terribly low at 1.045 ~ 68% efficiency which I hope was just from no sparge/no rinse at all. Also dropped my carboy with it full. A fun brew day.

Made a starter with my expired WLP860 pack and pitched. Had good airlock activity with 12 hours of pitching. Currently fermenting at 50F and will check attenuation at 7 days.

 

[jdubdvdt]

I just kegged this one up. Took a little sample for myself and dang it's nice!

Issues on brew day yielded an OG of 1.045 and FG of 1.011. I pitched the yeast a whopping 36ish hours after chilling (post brew issues). Fermented at 50F. And had a nice fluffy white krausen 18 hours after pitching. At about 50-60% attenuation by the third day and started raising temps for the diacetyl rest. I raised from 50F to 56F for 48 hours and then raised 62F for 12 hours and then raised to 68F for 72 hours (still had bubbles). Didn't cold crash, just transferred to keg on dextrose.

No diacetyl detected. Very clean. Currently carbonating with dextrose and then will be lagering for 4-6 weeks. Pretty clean looking, can't wait to see it after it's done lagering.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Honestly it's pretty sad I never took a good picture of this. I was reserving it for a family vacation in South Carolina. Our Swiss family flew in, most of which live in French Swiss regions, but one lives in Germany. I brought 3 gallons of this and it was gone in 2 evenings. I think it's a winner for a summer beer. Although the one from Germany did say it's a girly beer.

It was 96-98F the whole time, above 90F from 10am to 10pm. Great beer. My brewing buddy made the same recipe, but we quickly found out his used US Pale Ale and not US 2 Row Pale. Hahaha

 

[jdauria]

Have you used WLP860 Munich Helles? Not much info out here on HBT.

WLP860 dry yeast has kind of become my house yeast for German malt forward beer. Though have yet to use it on a Helles, but that will change on Saturday.

 

[jdubdvdt]

WLP860 dry yeast has kind of become my house yeast for German malt forward beer. Though have yet to use it on a Helles, but that will change on Saturday.

This recipe was well received by the European family. I would probably make it again with some German Pilsner next time. This recipe is pretty cheap to make with the 2-row which is nice.

 

[rtstrider]

Have you used WLP860 Munich Helles? Not much info out here on HBT.

I just kegged this recipe using wlp860 dry. The mash was 90 min at 149. I did make a 2L 1.040 starter since that was significantly cheaper than buying 2 dry packs. Wlp860 dry has a very specific nose on it. Its a very sweet nose and really mutes everything but that malt when it ferments. At least that was from the fermenter samples. Its been in the keg a little over 2 days now and this is really bitter, and almost no nose, but clearing. My guess is lagering will probably smooth this out but we will see. I probably got a sample of all the crud thats supposed to settle out. Lagering has an odd way of bringing everything together.

Anywho I'm going to dose with gelatin tomorrow and let ride until King of the Hill comes out. So far this time is the only time Ive brewed this recipe without something going massively wrong. Both this and Bells Two Hearted are my hell batches. Every.....single.....time

That said the sample from earlier was very crisp!

This beer is named King of the Helles! Ill post an update once this gets officially tapped

 

[jdubdvdt]

I just kegged this recipe using wlp860 dry. The mash was 90 min at 149. I did make a 2L 1.040 starter since that was significantly cheaper than buying 2 dry packs. Wlp860 dry has a very specific nose on it. Its a very sweet nose and really mutes everything but that malt when it ferments. At least that was from the fermenter samples. Its been in the keg a little over 2 days now and this is really bitter, and almost no nose, but clearing. My guess is lagering will probably smooth this out but we will see. I probably got a sample of all the crud thats supposed to settle out. Lagering has an odd way of bringing everything together.

Anywho I'm going to dose with gelatin tomorrow and let ride until King of the Hill comes out. So far this time is the only time Ive brewed this recipe without something going massively wrong. Both this and Bells Two Hearted are my hell batches. Every.....single.....time

That said the sample from earlier was very crisp!

This beer is named King of the Helles! Ill post an update once this gets officially tapped

I get a lot of fruit from the WLP860.
I don't get much hop profile when using WLP860 either.
Leaves a residual sweetness and a reasonable german "beer" flavor.

I will probably leave WLP860 only for a Helles. I prefer other strains for other german lagers.

 

[rtstrider]

Finally nailed this recipe! This recipe is really good! Wlp860 is a bit much on the malt side of things. Both on the aroma and flavor. Next time Im going to try and hefty pitch of wlp838 and see what happens since that is what the recipe calls for. The only changes I made this time was the mash temp (149F for 90 min) and the yeast (wlp860 dry)

 

[jdubdvdt]

Finally nailed this recipe! This recipe is really good! Wlp860 is a bit much on the malt side of things. Both on the aroma and flavor. Next time Im going to try and hefty pitch of wlp838 and see what happens since that is what the recipe calls for. The only changes I made this time was the mash temp (149F for 90 min) and the yeast (wlp860 dry)
View attachment 881745

I believe 838 or 833 would do really well in this recipe. We did enjoy it with 860, but I am putting that yeast as probably my least favorite German Lager yeast until further notice.

 

[rtstrider]

I believe 838 or 833 would do really well in this recipe. We did enjoy it with 860, but I am putting that yeast as probably my least favorite German Lager yeast until further notice.

What did you not like about wlp860?

For me it leans way too much into the malt in both flavor and aroma. Its malt first then everything else a close 3rd or 4th (so malty it takes first and 2nd place lol). Ill definitely have to prop up some 838 from the freezer bank and try again!

 

[jdubdvdt]

What did you not like about wlp860?

For me it leans way too much into the malt in both flavor and aroma. Its malt first then everything else a close 3rd or 4th (so malty it takes first and 2nd place lol). Ill definitely have to prop up some 838 from the freezer bank and try again!

For this recipe we noted...
It is malt dominant, but the detailed malt characteristic seems a little muted by the fruitier esters. I might be really sensitive to ethyl hexanoate early on.
The beer didn't last very long - I lagered it for 6-8 weeks I believe and it was gone in 2 days. It was good, but I think the yeast was the wrong choice. It does have german characteristics, but nothing like 838 or 833.

For another recipe we noted even 10-15minute additions had muted hop flavors.

 

[rtstrider]

I didnt get fruity esters but I got malt everything lol Ill have to try 838 for sure!

 

[jdubdvdt]

I didnt get fruity esters but I got malt everything lol Ill have to try 838 for sure!

We really exacerbated the esters of 860 the second time by warm fermenting it.

 

[rtstrider]

We really exacerbated the esters of 860 the second time by warm fermenting it.

Maybe that's why I didnt get many esters. It was fermented at 54F

 

[jdubdvdt]

Maybe that's why I didnt get many esters. It was fermented at 54F

I fermented at 50F the first time until the diacetyl rest. I may have raised the temperature prematurely. I also transferred to a keg and then keg conditioned it with the residual 860 at room temp. That may have played a role in it.

 

[jdubdvdt]

I forgot I did make my Festbier and my Marzen last year with the 860 - it accentuated the Munich malt. I think that may be the fruity flavors, but I do remember an apple/fruit flavor which could still possibly be ethyl hexanoate.