20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[IslandLizard]

Thoughts?

• Do you scrape the crystals that form above the boil line back into your syrup after turning the heat off? That would create nucleation sites for further crystallization.
• I scrape them off and add them back to the bubbling syrup, periodically, to dissolve them again.
• DAP needs to be added at the onstart, it supplies the amino acid, needed for the Maillard reactions. That's why I use wort as it has more different ones (FAN content).

 

[Stand]

• Do you scrape the crystals that form above the boil line back into your syrup after turning the heat off? That would create nucleation sites for further crystallization.
• I scrape them off and add them back to the bubbling syrup, periodically, to dissolve them again.
• DAP needs to be added at the onstart, it supplies the amino acid, needed for the Maillard reactions. That's why I use wort as it has more different ones (FAN content).

I do scrape it periodically as I boil, but not after turning off the heat.

Adding DAP at the onset caused some problems for me, so I don't do that. The first problem is that it's volatizing and filling my kitchen with ammonia which I don't love. The other problem is that I can't make a crystal-free syrup with a lighter color when I add the DAP that early.

I want to invert a larger percentage of the syrup before trying to get the Maillard reactions started. The method I'll outline here utilizes the ammonia as soon as it is added, so you don't need to use as much, and it doesn't end up in the air. I did a bunch of research, but I have since forgotten why this works. It does work though!

DME seems like a really good option as well, but I haven't tried it alone.

I've worked this recipe a couple of times since I last posted, and I think I've worked out a procedure that creates exactly what I want in a reasonable time-frame.

The picture here is a batch I made about 3 months ago, and you can see there are a few crystals just starting to form on the bottom. That was with a 20 minute hold in the 260-275 range. I've since increased that to 30 minutes and eliminated the problem.

Belgian Candi Syrup Recipe:
Ingredients:

4# White Sugar
1# Dextrose (Corn Sugar)
1 1/2 Cups Water
1/2 tsp. Cream of Tartar

1 Cup Water
2 tsp. DME
1 tsp. Diammonium Phosphate


Put Sugar, Dextrose, Water and cream of tartar together in a pot and bring to 260 degrees. Hold between 260 and 275 for 30 minutes.

While sugar is heating dissolve 2 tsps. of Dry Malt Extract and 1 tsp of Di-ammonium Phosphate to 1 cup of water and set aside.*

After 30 minutes raise temperature between 290-300 and then SLOWLY add water/DME/DAP solution to syrup to start the Maillard reactions and drop temperature (It should drop close to 240). Add additional water until temperature is 240. Use less solution for less color.

Continue boiling slowly until desired color is reached and then add water to drop to 240 degrees again. Fills two quart mason jars.

*Note: You can add less or more of this solution depending on what you are trying to make. I tend to have both water and DAP/DME/water solution, so that I can adjust as I need while still dropping to 240.

 

[eimar]

Pefect way to make candi syrup ? I'm confused. The way I understand is that Maillard reactions need reducing sugars but sucrose is not. So should we produce the candi syrup in 2 steps?
1) invert the sucrose: mix sucrose, water, citric acid ( or lemon juice ) and slowly heat to reach 114° C.
2) add DAP and proceed following the great instructions on page 1 and 2 of this thread

As one can see on my avatar picture, I like candi syrup.

Santé
Jacques

 

[IslandLizard]

Pefect way to make candi syrup ? I'm confused. The way I understand is that Maillard reactions need reducing sugars but sucrose is not. So should we produce the candi syrup in 2 steps?
1) invert the sucrose: mix sucrose, water, citric acid ( or lemon juice ) and slowly heat to reach 114° C.
2) add DAP and proceed following the great instructions on page 1 and 2 of this thread

As one can see on my avatar picture, I like candi syrup.

Santé
Jacques

Sugar has its own branch of science. It's that big!

Here's different and very good source on making candi sugar:
http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html

 

[eimar]

IslandLizard , thank you for the link it confirms that sugar production is vastly complex.
My favourite recipe from SnickASaurusRex is the deep amber. The only way to know is to brew it as described then produce a 2nd batch with an inverting step before proceeding to the normal recipe.

Jacques
Santé

 

[Stand]

I have made Candi Syrups in a lot of different ways. It isn't hard to make something nice.

My goal was to make something that combines the flavors of a slightly caramelized invert syrup (mostly fructose due to lower carmelization temp), with the Maillard flavors I was getting in the original recipes (I like both).

I mostly make Belgian beers, so I use a lot of this syrup. This is my favorite recipe to date.

Cheers!

 

[milclaw]

I've been following this thread for a long time and could never get the caramel syrup recipe to come up, I'm excited to make these and add to my next amber ale. Thanks for posting the recipes!

 

[eimar]

I've been following this thread for a long time and could never get the caramel syrup recipe to come up, I'm excited to make these and add to my next amber ale. Thanks for posting the recipes!

milclaw, it is easy to make candi syrup. The seret ingredient is "patience" .

 

[cmac62]

Subbed so I know where I can find the thread when I go to make this. I have the surgar and DAP, but I need to order a candy thermo.

 

[IslandLizard]

Subbed so I know where I can find the thread when I go to make this. I have the surgar and DAP, but I need to order a candy thermo.

If you don't have a Thermapen yet, I can recommend buying one at some point. Once I did, I feel I bought it 10 years too late.
They go on sale and they also do "open box" sales at times. Sign up for their email to get those notifications and discount codes.

Once I started using the much faster reacting and more precise Thermapen, the syrups have become more consistent and predictable.

Notes:

• I always make a double, 2 pound, batch in a narrow, tallish pot. The larger volume and height helps with extended cooking times, and keeping the temps more consistent. Easier to stir and measure temps, too.
• Use a stainless spoon to stir/scrape, not a plastic one. Syrups are much hotter than water, >260F, doh!
• Adding a tablespoon of water to the cooking syrup from time to time prevents it from getting too hot (and too dark) too quickly. The longer you keep it between 250-270F the more good caramel flavor develops.

 

[eimar]

"Maillard reaction is strongly influenced by the pH
which increases with increasing pH" very interesting article here:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...of_coconut_sugar_and_its_antioxidant_activity

So shouldn't we:
1) mix sucrose ,water, lemon juice and heat to inversion temparature
2) add DAP and calcium hydroxide ( pickling lime ?? )
3) heat until we get the right color

Does it makes sense ?

 

[IslandLizard]

"Maillard reaction is strongly influenced by the pH
which increases with increasing pH" very interesting article here:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...of_coconut_sugar_and_its_antioxidant_activity

So shouldn't we:
1) mix sucrose ,water, lemon juice and heat to inversion temparature
2) add DAP and calcium hydroxide ( pickling lime ?? )
3) heat until we get the right color

Does it makes sense ?

Isn't the idea in this method NOT to invert. Inverting makes a glucose/fructose mixture from sucrose.
I don't use water anymore. Instead, I use wort, often high gravity wort, adding more complex molecules for the Maillard reactions.
I really like the results it gives me, in Belgian beers too. It's much richer than D-90, IMO.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Isn't the idea in this method NOT to invert. Inverting makes a glucose/fructose mixture from sucrose.
I don't use water anymore. Instead, I use wort, often high gravity wort, adding more complex molecules for the Maillard reactions.
I really like the results it gives me, in Belgian beers too. It's much richer than D-90, IMO.

I use DME for a proportion of the sugar for the same reason, it adds a variety of sugars, proteins, etc. to increase complexity.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

"Maillard reaction is strongly influenced by the pH
which increases with increasing pH" very interesting article here:
(PDF) Effect of pH and temperature on browning intensity of coconut sugar and its antioxidant activity

So shouldn't we:
1) mix sucrose ,water, lemon juice and heat to inversion temparature
2) add DAP and calcium hydroxide ( pickling lime ?? )
3) heat until we get the right color

Does it makes sense ?

There are many ways to make various syrups. Don't worry about the science of why or whether we should do this or that in theory, the method in this thread works really well.

 

[eimar]

Isn't the idea in this method NOT to invert. Inverting makes a glucose/fructose mixture from sucrose.
I don't use water anymore. Instead, I use wort, often high gravity wort, adding more complex molecules for the Maillard reactions.
I really like the results it gives me, in Belgian beers too. It's much richer than D-90, IMO.

"The Maillard reaction is a chemical reaction between amino acids and reducing sugars" , so how can you have Maillard reactions from sucrose ?? The way I understand sucrose is not a reducing sugar .

 

[OldDogBrewing]

How much will this last in the fridge? Or out of it? No idea how to store it, I will be doing this the day before brewday as I already do an step mash and I'm planning on adding a decoction to raise to mash out so I don't want to add one more step to brewday.

Will this last overnight?

 

[z-bob]

How much will this last in the fridge? Or out of it? No idea how to store it, I will be doing this the day before brewday as I already do an step mash and I'm planning on adding a decoction to raise to mash out so I don't want to add one more step to brewday.

Will this last overnight?

I've not really been following this thread, so I don't know how concentrated your syrup is, but if it's strong enough it doesn't even need refrigeration. (let's assume it's not that strong) Yes, it will keep in the refrigerator; for a long time. About like real maple syrup.

 

[eimar]

I store my candi syrup in ( preheated ) Mason jars. I keep it at ambient temperature for several months without problem. At least 24 hours without refrigeration , I produced 40 kg of candi syrup for a micro brewery the day before brew day. As z-bob says: like real maple syrup.

 

[z-bob]

"Maillard reaction is strongly influenced by the pH
which increases with increasing pH" very interesting article here:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...of_coconut_sugar_and_its_antioxidant_activity

So shouldn't we:
1) mix sucrose ,water, lemon juice and heat to inversion temparature
2) add DAP and calcium hydroxide ( pickling lime ?? )
3) heat until we get the right color

Does it makes sense ?

Sucrose will hydrolyze at neutral pH, just not as quickly as in acid. I think if you want to optimize the reaction, mix the water, sugar, and DAP (or powdered egg white, or whey, or DME, etc) and cook for a long time. You'll probably get a little browning as well; I don't remember if that's from the fructose or glucose. Then add the lime or potassium hydroxide or sodium carbonate (it won't take nearly as much because you didn't add any acid) and continue cooking until you get the color you want.

I don't know if sucrose will hydrolyze (invert) eventually without adding invertase enzymes at high pH. A quick search this morning doesn't turn up anything.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Thanks both of you, I'm definitely swapping the candi rocks for a homemade syrup in my next dubbel

 

[Mothman]

How much will this last in the fridge? Or out of it? No idea how to store it, I will be doing this the day before brewday as I already do an step mash and I'm planning on adding a decoction to raise to mash out so I don't want to add one more step to brewday.

Will this last overnight?

Just keep in mind that if you do store it in the fridge, it might be a little hard to work with, as it will thicken more. Or , like in my case, on my first attempt I over cooked it, and after being in the fridge, it turned hard, like fudge.

I softened it by putting the jar in a pot of hot water and stirring occasionally, still turned out delicious.

I used the left over of that "fudge" as a coffee sweetener/flavouring. It was awesome. lol

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Commercial golden syrup and treacle gets left on ambient shelves for years in British homes - the worst that happens to it is that it can crystallise a bit after a few years. From an osmotic point of view it's almost the equivalent of salt.

 

[eimar]

Thanks both of you, I'm definitely swapping the candi rocks for a homemade syrup in my next dubbel

You'll like it.

 

[RoadKing]

I want to make an #8 batch of 290-300 of this for a 30 gallon batch of a Belgian strong. I read alot of the thread, but I wanna make sure...Is this 100% fermentable?

 

[z-bob]

I want to make an #8 batch of 290-300 of this for a 30 gallon batch of a Belgian strong. I read alot of the thread, but I wanna make sure...Is this 100% fermentable?

I think it's almost 100%.

 

[eimar]

From my latest batch of Saint Nicolas 8 dubbel: OG 1.074 FG 1.013 , 1.5 lb homemade dark candi syrup for a 5 gallons batch.. So I conclude that candi syrup is 100% fermentable .

 

[RoadKing]

Thanks guys. How do ya like using the syrup?

 

[eimar]

Thanks guys. How do ya like using the syrup?

I like it, combined with Wyeast Abbey II yeast it brings some plum flavor, like in Rochefort 8 ( my favorite beer )

Jacques

 

[cmac62]

At 290-300 it can't be 100% fermentable. There has to be some caramelized and maillard compounds that won't ferment, otherwise you would not get any flavor out of the dark stuff.

 

[z-bob]

At 290-300 it can't be 100% fermentable. There has to be some caramelized and maillard compounds that won't ferment, otherwise you would not get any flavor out of the dark stuff.

That's why I said almost 100%

 

[monkeymath]

The Belgian dubbel I made two years ago using the deep amber syrup from the original post is still the best beer I have made to date. Fermented with Wyeast 3522 (supposedly he strain from Achouffe, one of my favourite breweries). Came out pretty much perfect to my taste. The only downside is that I'm not sure if I can reproduce the syrup exactly.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I made the 290F syrup the other day, while I was doing it, around the 110°C-120°C the sugar turned into "rocks" and then it melted again, is that something that needs to happen? Or I messed it up? I used brown sugar to get more dark notes and that tobacco like note I usually detect in brown sugar.

 

[eimar]

At 290-300 it can't be 100% fermentable. There has to be some caramelized and maillard compounds that won't ferment, otherwise you would not get any flavor out of the dark stuff.

Correct , so we can say that homemade candi syrup is almost 100% fermentable

 

[RoadKing]

1ST Jar Half gallon ball jar. Brought it to 230 and added DAP. It stalled a bit there, then slowly rose to 275ish, where it rose rapidly to 290.
I added 3 cups of water and brought it back to around 227 where I stopped it so it would stay more syrupy, as others stated.

 

[cmac62]

I do scrape it periodically as I boil, but not after turning off the heat.

Adding DAP at the onset caused some problems for me, so I don't do that. The first problem is that it's volatizing and filling my kitchen with ammonia which I don't love. The other problem is that I can't make a crystal-free syrup with a lighter color when I add the DAP that early.

I want to invert a larger percentage of the syrup before trying to get the Maillard reactions started. The method I'll outline here utilizes the ammonia as soon as it is added, so you don't need to use as much, and it doesn't end up in the air. I did a bunch of research, but I have since forgotten why this works. It does work though!

DME seems like a really good option as well, but I haven't tried it alone.

I've worked this recipe a couple of times since I last posted, and I think I've worked out a procedure that creates exactly what I want in a reasonable time-frame.

The picture here is a batch I made about 3 months ago, and you can see there are a few crystals just starting to form on the bottom. That was with a 20 minute hold in the 260-275 range. I've since increased that to 30 minutes and eliminated the problem.

Belgian Candi Syrup Recipe:
Ingredients:

4# White Sugar
1# Dextrose (Corn Sugar)
1 1/2 Cups Water
1/2 tsp. Cream of Tartar

1 Cup Water
2 tsp. DME
1 tsp. Diammonium Phosphate


Put Sugar, Dextrose, Water and cream of tartar together in a pot and bring to 260 degrees. Hold between 260 and 275 for 30 minutes.

While sugar is heating dissolve 2 tsps. of Dry Malt Extract and 1 tsp of Di-ammonium Phosphate to 1 cup of water and set aside.*

After 30 minutes raise temperature between 290-300 and then SLOWLY add water/DME/DAP solution to syrup to start the Maillard reactions and drop temperature (It should drop close to 240). Add additional water until temperature is 240. Use less solution for less color.

Continue boiling slowly until desired color is reached and then add water to drop to 240 degrees again. Fills two quart mason jars.

*Note: You can add less or more of this solution depending on what you are trying to make. I tend to have both water and DAP/DME/water solution, so that I can adjust as I need while still dropping to 240.

Stand, I was wondering if fermaid O could be substituted for the DME and some of the DAP? I don't have any DME on hand and was thinking the Fermaid O would have both protein and amonia. What do you think? Thanks

 

[Stand]

I would guess that it works the same, but my organic chemistry is weak compared to many of the HBT resident experts. That said, the descriptions I am reading make it sound like an organic source of DAP. I know people have used other yeast nutrients successfully, so I have no reason to believe that one is significantly different or would result in a different product.

With no DME you will need more nutrient or time.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!

 

[cmac62]

I would guess that it works the same, but my organic chemistry is weak compared to many of the HBT resident experts. That said, the descriptions I am reading make it sound like an organic source of DAP. I know people have used other yeast nutrients successfully, so I have no reason to believe that one is significantly different or would result in a different product.

With no DME you will need more nutrient or time.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!

I used a little DAP and some Fermaid O, did the #5 and it came out great. On the second heating I looked away for 30 seconds and it got up to 320. It tasted great and I put it into my Dubble I brewed on Friday. Looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

 

[Kold Brygg]

Due to lockdown I'm unable to get Candi Syrup. So I thought I'll make some myself. I've read somewhere 280 is more or less the same as D-180.

Candi Syrup sells in 16oz packs. I suppose it's slightly watered down. Any idea how much sugar I need to equal a bag of Candi Syrup?

 

[cmac62]

Due to lockdown I'm unable to get Candi Syrup. So I thought I'll make some myself. I've read somewhere 280 is more or less the same as D-180.

Candi Syrup sells in 16oz packs. I suppose it's slightly watered down. Any idea how much sugar I need to equal a bag of Candi Syrup?

how many grams/Oz in the bag? I did it one to one, you don't loose anything but water and you put some of this back when you thin it to 240. Good luck.

 

[Kold Brygg]

how many grams/Oz in the bag? I did it one to one, you don't loose anything but water and you put some of this back when you thin it to 240. Good luck.

]

16oz or 450G or 300ML says the package.

PPG 1.032 which is 70%
Table sugar have PPG 1.046 which is 100% fermentable.