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20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

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SnickASaurusRex

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So do I really have to use brewers yeast or will my moms sourdough junk work?

No really...

I just blew through 20 lbs of sugar and a jar of DAP yeast nutrient trying to perfect my caramelized "Candi Syrup" recipe. and this is what I came up with.

The basic ideas for the recipe are from “Radical Brewing” –Randy Mosher, and from “Brew Like a Monk” –Stan Hieronymus. I spent some time working on a procedure that seems to work really well. The procedures came from various books on candy making and internet resources. Both recipes are temperature sensitive and absolutely dependent on the use of a candy or deep fry thermometer. Do not turn the temperature up past medium. This will result in bitterness and a burnt flavor.

These recipes make ~1 quart.

Sugar #4
This is a simple caramel that can be made into syrups with different colors and flavor characteristics. I made and took notes on six different terminal temperatures from 250F – 300F.

The procedure for making the syrups starts with 2 lbs of sugar, a varied amount of Di-Ammonium Phosphate (DAP Yeast Nutrient), and 1 cup of water. You bring these three ingredients to a boil over medium heat. You do not want to stir, the gentle convections will do all the mixing that is necessary. Using a thermometer, stop the boil at the desired terminal temperature by adding a varied amount of water while gently stirring the solution. This is the dangerous part, a fair amount of spitting and sputtering might occur. After adding the water you will need to dissolve the syrup by stirring gently until the solution reaches the stage called soft ball (240F). This is when the syrup is done. Stop the cooking by submerging the pan in cool water or by transferring the syrup to a preheated mason jar.

Rose (250F)
-Clear, slightly rosy color. This syrup is sweet and sugary with very little to no character flavors.
2 Lbs Sugar
1 Cup Water
1/2 tsp DAP
1/2 Cup Water


Light (260F)
-Apricot colored with mild flavors reminiscent of peaches and white grape juice. Some very mild warm flavors like soft rounded vanilla.
2 Lbs Sugar
1 Cup Water
1 tsp DAP
3/4 Cup Water


Light Amber (270F)
-Apricot to light amber in color with some red tones developing. Mild caramel flavors with some soft sweet fruit characters developing. Mellow flat vanilla flavor with some warm cardamom tones. Maybe plums and dried apricots in the distant background.
2 Lbs Sugar
1 Cup Water
1 – 1/2 tsp DAP
1 Cup Water


Medium Amber (280F)
-Amber colored. Strong caramels and intensifying cardamom and plum flavors. Some roasted flavor developing but not bitter.
2 Lbs Sugar
1 Cup Water
2 tsp DAP
1 – 1/4 Cup Water


Deep Amber (290F)
-Deep amber with full red colors. Raisins and plums are the dominant flavors with a hint of toast and coffee. Some rummy and mildly woody flavors. Strong complex caramels are present. It is a sophisticated sweetness with a robust, full characteristic. This is my favorite.
2 Lbs Sugar
1 Cup Water
2 – 1/2 tsp DAP
1 – 1/2 Cup Water


Mahogany (300F)
-Mahogany, more brown than red in color. Raisins and figs with some mild bitterness developing. There is a tart sweetness, and a loss of complex caramel flavors. The caramels are replaced by bittersweet toast and burnt sugar characters. It is rich and decadent but not as complex as 290F.
2 Lbs Sugar
1 Cup Water
3 tsp DAP
1 – 3/4 Cup Water



Sugar #5

This is a double cooked sugar that further increases the flavors of 290F without compromising the complex caramels. Think of this sugar as an extension of the 290F recipe. Everything about it is intensified. The procedure is a bit more complicated and it takes nearly an hour to complete, but it is worth the time and effort.
Over medium heat bring to a boil
2 Lbs Sugar
1 Cup Water
3 tsp DAP

Raise this to the terminal temperature of 290F. At 290F begin stirring and add in:
1 Cup Water
Continue stirring until the sugars are dissolved. Again, bring the solution up to 290F over medium heat. At 290F begin stirring and add in:
1 Cup of Water
Stir this until the sugars are dissolved and the temperature starts to rise a couple degrees. This Should be right at or just above soft ball (240F). This is when the syrup is done. Stop the cooking by submerging the pan in cool water or by transferring the syrup to a preheated mason jar.

Happy sugar making and good brewing.
 

Tonedef131

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Very cool, I'm saving these formulas and hope they add another layer to some belgian ales.
 
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SnickASaurusRex

SnickASaurusRex

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I forgot to add that these recipes are not shelf stable. They may begin to crystallize after several days. You could look at this two ways. The crystallization will only help to concentrate the flavors into the liquid portion of the syrup and just be happy with that...

Or, you could and a 1/4 cup corn syrup to the base recipe to add a matrix blocking sugar to the mix. This will add shelf stability to the product, but I don't like doing that. It might be a useful trick if you want to keep the syrup around for other things, like ice cream drizzle or coffee/tea sweetener etc.. But for brewing just chuck the syrup and crystals into the kettle and all is solved. ;)
 

wilserbrewer

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Interesting read SnickASaurus, thanks, maybe you could help me, why DAP, I followed your guidelines earlier tonight, but all I had was some acid (cream of tartar). I was making invert syrup and noticed your write up. What does the DAP do??
 
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SnickASaurusRex

SnickASaurusRex

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DAP provides Nitrogen for mailard reactions (non enzymatic browning) to occur. These occur between ~270F and ~320F. Another source of nitrogen is ammonium bicarbonate. It is a leaven used by professional bakers.

As DAP breaks down around ~270F it separates into two molecules of ammonium and dehydrate-phosphoric acid. So it provides both the nitrogen for browning and the acid for inversion.
 

Aspera

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He's basically making homemade brewer's caramel, which is a coloring agent made from dextrose and ammonia. While common in Britain, I haven't been able to find it over here and will definitely be following some of these recipes.
 

JKelleyLBI

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Fantastic stuff, I've been eyeballing a stout recipe that calls for candi syrup and I've not been able to locate any. Thank you for posting this, I will definitely be putting it to use.
 

wilserbrewer

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Well, I'll report back that I made up a batch last night, probably came out b/w medium and deep amber. Thinking of using this in a batch of ale using domestic two row base grain.

What can I expect a pound of "converted" cane sugar syrup to do to a 5 gal batch?? Will the effect be similiar to crystal or "caramel" malt?

Now that I made this stuff, just not sure what to do with it?

ps, smells and tastes nice, reminds me of toasted marshmellows.
 
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SnickASaurusRex

SnickASaurusRex

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It is similar to crystal, but without the unfermentables and no malt flavors. It will help to stretch the body and dry out the final product. It will do what other caramels and candi syrups do to a beer.

wilserbrewer - I noticed that you mentioned your were going to use cream of tartar. This should make a toffee or cooked sugar syrup like peanut brittle without the peanuts. That would explain the marshmallow flavor.

It should be really nice to dry out an English brown, mild, or bitter. It would go well in a big porter.

The DAP is really necessary to bring out the maillard flavors.

By the way, these syrups are great over icecream if you're not using them in a brew.
 

SpanishCastleAle

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SnickASaurus,
I tried making Dark Candi Syrup...outlined in this thread. I had no clue what I was doing. I just used sugar and water...no acid or anything else. My sugary cauldron didn't start to darken until it was quite a bit hotter...well over 300* F. Is that because i didn't use acid/DAP? I got the solution above 360* F but not higher than 370* F. This had a lot of toffee-like aroma but the flavor was ripe fruit, no burnt aroma or flavor. It's weird how the aroma and flavor are so different. I used it in a Dubbel and that brew is great (albeit still young for a Dubbel) but having never done any of this before I dunno how much flavor I got from the Dark Candi Syrup. It def tastes like it's got a bowl-o-cherries in there somewhere.

Could you explain the difference between your darkest syrup and...whatever it was that I made? You seem to know what's actually going on here.:)

Interesting point on the softball temp. I diluted mine too much and didn't reduce it back down enough...I quit @ about 228* F and it is a bit too thin. Nice to know the proper ending temp. FWIW, the remaining syrup I have from that batch (mid-February) has not crystallized one bit.
 

Ysgard

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Question: As far as the amount of water making it a syrup goes...Shouldn't you just add water till it's between 30 and 20% by weight? (20% being LME consistency)

So, for 2 lbs, just add 8 oz water?
 
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SnickASaurusRex

SnickASaurusRex

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SpanishCastleAle:

What you made was a caramel syrup;

Caramelization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What I made was technically a Maillard solution;

Maillard reaction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maillard reactions begin around 260F and continue up to about 320F. Right at 320F is where caramelization occurs and it continues to about 370F.

The ammonia is a source of nitrogen that allows flavors to develop that are outside the realm of cooked sugar. Both options are viable for the production of a candi syrup, but caramelized sugar is a little trickier and more dangerous for a novice candi maker. Also the cooked sugar has more of a mellow soft vanilla and toffee character. The Maillard solution has a wider range of flavors and is ultimately much sweeter.

One thing about a caramelized syrup is that it has very little fermentable sugar left in solution, because the process is happening simultaneously across the solution as the temperature increases (all the sugar molecules at once). When using the DAP only a limited number of sugar molecules can be affected, because the reactions occur below the caramelization point of sugar (320F), and are limited by the dose of DAP. Once it is used up it is gone (one DAP to two Sugar molecules).
 
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SnickASaurusRex

SnickASaurusRex

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Ysgard:

Sugar boils above the temperature of water and so the water boils off at an alarming rate. The temperature of the solution is acctually indicative of how much water is actually in solution. At soft ball (250F) ther is 85% sugar and 15% water;

Candy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This continues up to 320F when there is no water left in solution. This is when the sugar begins to caramelize. At 350F the sugar carbonizes and can actually combust if left above 350F for too long.

The water additions are to balance the boil off and finish at 15% water.
 
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SnickASaurusRex

SnickASaurusRex

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I have read over and over that Belgium Candi Syrup (D and D2) has no DAP or other additives other than sucrose. I find this interesting. I do know that they use sucrose from beets, and I have come across several references to DAP being used in the refinement process of beet sugar. I wonder if some of this DAP is carried over from production to end product. The DAP is used to create an alkaline solution that assist in the precipitation of impurities.
 

SpanishCastleAle

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Thanks for the explanation. I used only sugar because that's what the D and D2 allegedly are but I did not know DAP was used in the refinement of beet sugar. I def need to make some of this stuff and compare.

Both options are viable for the production of a candi syrup, but caramelized sugar is a little trickier and more dangerous for a novice candi maker.
In a way I may have gotten a little lucky on mine...it's a rather boring boil up to the point of caramelization but then things seem to happen at a faster and faster rate. After it got up to 350* or so the temp started ramping up faster and at some point it was almost a scramble to prevent the temp from going above 370* F. Adding the water just 1 TBS. at a time created violent boiling but I expected it to some degree. I think it was right on the verge of getting some burnt character and I'm not sure I could recreate it exactly.
 

Ysgard

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Thoughts on using the Urea/Ammonia Phosphate Yeast Nutrient in place of DAP?
 

hexmonkey

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One thing about a caramelized syrup is that it has very little fermentable sugar left in solution, because the process is happening simultaneously across the solution as the temperature increases (all the sugar molecules at once). When using the DAP only a limited number of sugar molecules can be affected, because the reactions occur below the caramelization point of sugar (320F), and are limited by the dose of DAP. Once it is used up it is gone (one DAP to two Sugar molecules).
Is this to say that the caramel syrup will contribute more flavor and leave a higher F.G., but your maillard syrup will dry out the beer more and perhaps contribute less or totally different flavors due to the higher fermentability?
 
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SnickASaurusRex

SnickASaurusRex

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Ysgard:

I am not really familiar with that form of yeast nutrient. Are you sure that it is not 'Di-Ammonium Phosphate' derived from urea. If there is only one ammonium group then you might consider doubling the addition to match the nitrogen found in DAP.

Hexmonkey:

I am certain that you are right. I have not done fermentability experiment yet, but in theory this is what I would expect. I believe that the caramel syrup will give you a flavor profile akin to crystal malts, and the maillard syrup will give you a broader range of flavors and a morw fermentable product.
 

hexmonkey

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I am certain that you are right. I have not done fermentability experiment yet, but in theory this is what I would expect. I believe that the caramel syrup will give you a flavor profile akin to crystal malts, and the maillard syrup will give you a broader range of flavors and a morw fermentable product.
You should give this info to Basic Brewing as a follow-up, to explain the difference between caramel syrup and your maillard syrup. When I listened to the podcast, it wasn't entirely clear to me why the DAP was necessary, or what would happen if it was left out.

Spencer might also enjoy the opportunity to make both and experiment with the fermentability himself. He seems like that kind of nerd. :D
 

SpanishCastleAle

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I plan to do a sort of fast-ferment test on both types but I have to get some DAP in order to make the 'Maillard-type' Kandishroop.
 

yermej

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wilserbrewer - I noticed that you mentioned your were going to use cream of tartar. This should make a toffee or cooked sugar syrup like peanut brittle without the peanuts. That would explain the marshmallow flavor.
Are you sure about this? Cream of tartar is an acid and you'll end up with invert sugar - though I think the caramelization process also splits the sucrose molecules so it's probably not necessary in that case. In making a toffee or brittle, you generally add baking soda when you remove the sugar from the heat. I think that just foams up and gives the brittle a lighter texture - I'll have to check my book when I get home.

The toasted marshmallow flavor is from the caramelized sugar - just like roasting a marshmallow over a flame.

Also, you mentioned earlier that one could add corn syrup to help prevent crystallization in the finished product. I think a small amount of cream of tartar (or another acid) would accomplish the same thing. As in making plain invert sugar, the acid will split some of the sucrose molecules into fructose and glucose which is what you get by adding corn syrup. This would allow you to stabilize the syrup without adding store bought corn syrup which generally has some sort of additives - often vanilla.

Regardless, thanks for the experimentation and info. Good stuff.
 
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SnickASaurusRex

SnickASaurusRex

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Are you sure about this? Cream of tartar is an acid and you'll end up with invert sugar
Yeah I am really sure about this. The addition of cream of tartar will only aid invert process, besides the sugars will begin inversion on there own around 250F.

When making peanut brittle or toffee the soda is used to cause the solution to puff for a nice crunch.

Caramel syrups are really nice, but I am talking about making a maillard syrup. Cream of tartar will do nothing for this as there is not a source of nitrogen.

As for the toasted marshmallows: That is what I said. It was from the cooked sugar.

As for the corn syrup: As I have said I have done quite a few side by side experiments. In all my maillard syrups that were not double cooked I have experienced crystallization. That is about 4 jars. DAP breaks down into ammonium and phosphoric acid, so there is an acid to aid in inversion. It is just that the syrups do not get hot enough to invert much, with or without the acid. Corn syrup would provide the necessary matrix blocking sugars to stop this. In the double cooked syrup there has been no sign of crystallization to date. That is because more of the sugars have broken down and changed into maillard compounds.

Remember there is a big difference between what I am making, and an invert syrup or caramel syrup. They are all three different processes. I was focusing on a maillard syrup.

By the way. All the syrups that I made with an added acid tasted more bitter and astringent when tasted side by side with syrups made with just the DAP.
 

yermej

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SnickASaurusRex, I think I just misunderstood your reply to wilserbrewer. It seemed like one paragraph focusing on cream of tartar to me, but I guess you were referring to different parts of his post. My mistake.
 
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SnickASaurusRex

SnickASaurusRex

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Yeah! I seem to have that problem with face to face conversations also. When I was in school my mom and dad fed me pills to make be talk better n slower, but the doctor won't give me none more. :fro:
 

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Today is supposed to be a double batch day. A Belgian Dubbel and BM's Blonde. My LHBS only had Wyeast yeast nutrient in stock. Does anyone know the composition of this nutrient? I was hoping that it was mostly DAP and other trace minerals. I can't find any info.

Here it is: Wyeast Laboratories. Brewer's Choice™ Wyeast Nutrient Blend

I'm thinking the Dubbel will have to wait (but the starter is ready!). What a long drive for nothing.
 

jjp36

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I made a batch of this today to use in a tripel i'm going to be brewing soon. I was shooting for somewhere around light amber, how close does this look?


Also, it smelled really strongly of ammonia while it was boiling, I'm assuming thats normal and from the yeast nutrient breaking down?
 
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SnickASaurusRex

SnickASaurusRex

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Yep that looks like mine did at that color. The ammonia thing goes away. It is volatile so any that did not get consumed in the process, dissipates by the time the syrup is cooled
 

hammacks

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I think I mahogannied mine (shooting for 290). Still good though.
 

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This is a great thread. Thanks for all the time and sugar you put into this.
Has anyone tried double cooking (like sugar #5) the 260˚F or 270˚F sugar? Might be great for those lighter colored Belgians. Also I was wondering how this would go for less refined sugar, especially turbinado.
 
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SnickASaurusRex

SnickASaurusRex

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I have tried it with less refined sugars. It works, but you have to watch the higher temps. They tend to smoke and get bitter if they get too hot.
 
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