A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

PugDogIsAngry said:

AJ, to verify I have a correct understanding of the baseline water treatment, I should make the following additions to 100% use of RO or DI water for the following BIAB recipe.

Grist
8 lb 2 row
8 oz caramel 10

7.75 gal mash water-no sparge
ADD:
7.7 gm calcium chloride (1 gr per gal of water)
2.7 oz sauermalz (2% of 136 oz grist)
Optional addition to baseline of 6 gr of gypsum (.8 gr per gal) for a pale ale.

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Yes but suggest you work up to the gypsum. You might also want to start with 1/2 g/gal on the calcium chloride IOW work up to that too.

PugDogIsAngry said:

Also, should I avoid any sauermalz addition for a recipe like the following due to the amount of roasted malt in the recipe?

GRIST
8 lb 2 row
8 oz chocolate malt
8 oz roasted barley (Briess)
8 oz C-60

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Yes, in general if you have 10 - 20% high colored grains you can get away without any acid or alkali.

AJ, thanks again for your instruction!

I have been trying to take my brews to the next level and have been reading this thread and the Brewing Water book by Jamil Z. I obtained a report from Ward recently. Here are my numbers:

Sodium (Na) 36
Calcium (Ca) 8
Magnesium (Mg) 1
Total Hardness (CaCo3) 24
Nitrate, (NO3-N) 0.1
Sulfate (SO4-S) 2
Chloride (Cl) 29
Bicarbonate (HCO3) 65
Total Alkalinity CaCO3 57

I've been toying with EZ water's excel spreadsheet but it's obviously not something I'm familiar with at this point (guess I should've paid more attention in chemistry). I typically brew american pale ales and hop forward beers and from what I've read my profile seems to promote more maltiness and less bitterness and/or hop aroma.
Any input I could get from the forum would be greatly appreciated? What additions do you generally recommend for this type of profile and in what amounts? I'd like to increase the cripness and hop forward flavor of my pale ales. My stouts and porters have been pretty much on point, I guess I know why now that I've been doing my homework on water profiles.
Thank you in advance!

As this is the Primer the advice is to cut 1:1 or 2:1 with RO and then follow the recommendations in #1. There are other things you can do of course but that takes us beyond the KISS of this thread.

ajdelange said:

As this is the Primer the advice is to cut 1:1 or 2:1 with RO and then follow the recommendations in #1. There are other things you can do of course but that takes us beyond the KISS of this thread.

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Thank you for your quick reply. Any other places you suggest I can get some feedback on my water profile? Is there some other forum or webpage I can use to assist me in tweaking my water for better results.

ajdelange said:

As this is the Primer the advice is to cut 1:1 or 2:1 with RO and then follow the recommendations in #1. There are other things you can do of course but that takes us beyond the KISS of this thread.

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Thank you for the quick reply. I'm open to suggestions of other places to look for help, forums, webpages, etc. Anyone have some suggestions?

The "Brew Science" forum on homebrewtalk.com

No one is going to be able to give you a quick answer to the implied question "How much calcium sulfate should I add to this particular water to make a great Northern Brown Ale?". The answer as to how much to add to make a good one is given in #1 here. That's why it's there. It will get you started but you must do some work yourself to get from good to great. There are, in this thread, dozens of tips on how to do that. There are, in this topic (Brewing Science) hundreds more and in the Water book more still. You will have to actually read some of that stuff, in the Water book at least to the point where you can identify the authors. Then you will have to brew beer and experiment. You won't find the answer overnight.

ajdelange said:

You will have to actually read some of that stuff, in the Water book at least to the point where you can identify the authors.

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I was thinking the same thing. Glad you said it first.

Just an aside, AJ, I just want to thank you for your support of the homebrewing community. As a former HBD reader from nearly 20 years ago, I appreciate that you have always been there helping further the dialogue about water chemistry as it has evolved. I would love to serve you one of my homebrews one day!

I stand corrected the authors of the Brewing Water guide I was referring to are Palmer and Kaminski. Jamil Z authors Yeast. Tough crowd.
For the record I've read the book cover to cover and was just looking for some input from others on here now that I have a water report from Ward Labs not a passive aggressive jab for an innocent mistake on identifying the authors of the book. HBT is supposed to serve to assist and share ideas with others not repeatedly point out an innocent mistake. You guys really need to lighten up and not take yourselves so serious. We're making beers not nuclear bombs.
That being said I am still open to input, sans the ridicule, even if it's directing me to other resources.

strangr419 said:

I stand corrected the authors of the Brewing Water guide I was referring to are Palmer and Kaminski. Jamil Z authors Yeast. Tough crowd.

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heh... look at the Technical Editors too.

For the record I've read the book cover to cover and was just looking for some input from others on here now that I have a water report from Ward Labs not a passive aggressive jab for an innocent mistake on identifying the authors of the book.

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Your best bet is to just create a new post in the Brew Science forum asking for specific recommendations on a particular beer if that's what you're after. As AJ said, your implied question is beyond the scope of the Primer thread.

HBT is supposed to serve to assist and share ideas with others not repeatedly point out an innocent mistake. You guys really need to lighten up and not take yourselves so serious. We're making beers not nuclear bombs.
That being said I am still open to input, sans the ridicule, even if it's directing me to other resources.

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Honestly, you have been given significant advice already. AJ told you that what you're really after for pale bitter beers is to add Gypsum (CaSO4). I'm positive that's in the Water book too. You could start with the recommendations of the primer, or you could create a new post in the Brew Science thread asking your specific question. Within the scope of the primer, you're basically going to get the gist of the primer, i.e. start with 1 tsp or 5 grams per 5 gallons and adjust based on your results. If it doesn't come out crisp and bitter enough for your tastes, add more next time, or vice versa. If you post your own thread, I would also add your pH to it.

strangr419 said:

I stand corrected the authors of the Brewing Water guide I was referring to are Palmer and Kaminski. Jamil Z authors Yeast. Tough crowd.
For the record I've read the book cover to cover and was just looking for some input from others on here now that I have a water report from Ward Labs not a passive aggressive jab for an innocent mistake on identifying the authors of the book. HBT is supposed to serve to assist and share ideas with others not repeatedly point out an innocent mistake. You guys really need to lighten up and not take yourselves so serious. We're making beers not nuclear bombs.
That being said I am still open to input, sans the ridicule, even if it's directing me to other resources.

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TobyG said:

heh... look at the Technical Editors too.

Your best bet is to just create a new post in the Brew Science forum asking for specific recommendations on a particular beer if that's what you're after. As AJ said, your implied question is beyond the scope of the Primer thread.

Honestly, you have been given significant advice already. AJ told you that what you're really after for pale bitter beers is to add Gypsum (CaSO4). I'm positive that's in the Water book too. You could start with the recommendations of the primer, or you could create a new post in the Brew Science thread asking your specific question. Within the scope of the primer, you're basically going to get the gist of the primer, i.e. start with 1 tsp or 5 grams per 5 gallons and adjust based on your results. If it doesn't come out crisp and bitter enough for your tastes, add more next time, or vice versa. If you post your own thread, I would also add your pH to it.

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I would second starting anew thread, especially since the advice you've gotten so far isn't what you were looking for. AJ, Martin and others will all gladly chime in. Who knows, you might create a thread as amazing as this one, in a whole new direction. As for the authors of the Water book, doesn't really matter - in this community no one gets all the credit. In defense of the little bit of snark you got, the combination of the irony of AJ having written the forward on the Water book, AJ and Martin being technical editors on the book, and too much apple cider on a friday night may have led me to be not as nice as I could have been. Mea culpa, and I hope you'll not let it sour you on HBT.

Well I probably shouldn't have been so terse but do you have any idea how many times your post (here's my Ward Labs report, how do I make super beer with it?) has been put up here? Yooper suggested the Primer to save me and others from having to answer that question over and over again. And of course the question doesn't have an answer because the answer depends on the style of beer, the other materials you use (malts and hops), the criterion you use to define 'good' and your personal tastes. If you have read in this thread and in the Water book you should be aware of this. The fact that you aren't suggests that perhaps you did not spend a lot of time on either and that implication, valid or not, was what triggered the snap response. Now there are 102 pages here and the Water book isn't bed time reading we know but it appears that you don't appreciate how much work you are going to have to do to start cranking out beers you are really proud of. Most people won't elect to make that effort and it is for them that the Primer was written. If you want to go the step beyond and you want peoples' advice your questions will have to be much more focused (and should not be asked in the Primer thread). There are dozens of posts in this thread, and elsewhere on HBT, that suggest using the Primer as a stepping off point. That is still what I advise. If you want to read in some of the other threads to see what techniques other more advanced brewers use you can certainly do that but you should probably stick to the Primer for starters.

I am sincerely thankful for HBT and contributors like you all. It has been an immense help to me. This is a priceless tool for us.
I didn't realize this was the wrong place for my post. I apologize if it was poorly placed on HBT. My bad. I'll try to find the appropriate place for it and/or just keep tweaking and brewing until I figure it out.
Either way again much appreciate everyone's assistance and direction. Happy brewing all!

strangr419 said:

I didn't realize this was the wrong place for my post. I apologize if it was poorly placed on HBT.

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I'm still not sure if you're reading completely. All anyone is telling you is that _this_thread_ is not the best place for your question since it's beyond the scope of the primer (a small introductory text). The subforum that it's contained in (Brew Science) is certainly a valid place to create a new thread for your question. Post your water report and ask for advice on brewing a specific style (even with recipe included), and you will likely get more responses than you were looking for, even from people involved in the aforementioned Water book. Don't confuse people saying that this thread isn't the proper place with people saying this site or forum isn't the proper place. Honestly, I'm envious of the water results you've posted. My own water take a fair amount of acidification and modification to compensate for (primarily high in sodium and carbonates, but bereft of much else).

Thanks TobyG.
I didn't mean poorly placed on HBT as a whole just this Primer Thread. Thanks for directing me to the right place. That's all I was looking for. I'll search it out and give it another shot.
I appreciate your input/advice/suggestions. Happy brewing and Cheers!

I've been using more and more salts in my beers lately, and my beers have not been getting any better, basically getting worse. I got caught up in the vortex of water calculators and am glad I have found this thread and found my way out.

I would like to get some quick feedback before I brew tomorrow. Brewing a Cream Ale consisting of a 10# grain bill with the addition of 2% (3.2 ounces) of acid malt. I know there is some debate about the concentration of Calcium Chloride, but what would be a good starting point (in grams) for every 5 gallons of water using the Calcium Chloride I have that are the little prills? I bought it recently and has been stored in an airtight container. And I'm just looking for a solid starting point. I'm not looking for perfect. I'll make my adjustments on future batches moving forward.

Also, can I mix the Calcium Chloride right in with the Camden tablet to treat my water all at once?

My water (ward Labs):

Calcium: 7
Magnesium: 1
Sodium: 9
Chloride: 6
Sulfate, SO4-S: 3
Alkalinity, CaCO3: 31

The Primer says to use 1 tsp (5 grams) CaCl2 per 5 gallons. I think that's a lot. Half that much makes more sense to me even though it puts Ca++ under 50 mg/L (but not by much). You apparently have discovered that you are a member of the 'less is more' tribe. In my own brewing I use even less. You can always try more in a taste test of the finished beer and if you like it use more in the future. Don't worry about water of hydration. It really doesn't matter that much if you are off by 20- 30%. If you are concerned about this there is a sticky on how to determine the concentration of CaCl2 solution made from CaCl2.?H2O.

You can add it at any time its convenient but better to the water than to the mash.

ajdelange said:

The Primer says to use 1 tsp (5 grams) CaCl2 per 5 gallons. I think that's a lot. Half that much makes more sense to me even though it puts Ca++ under 50 mg/L (but not by much). You apparently have discovered that you are a member of the 'less is more' tribe.

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I'm definitely down with less is more! I went back and was looking at the notes from an APA I made a few years ago, and I only used 2.7g calcium chloride for a total of 9 gallons of water. Granted there was 10.4g of calcium sulfate also used, but it is still the best beer I have ever made. I didn't have a pH meter back then, but the hot break was super fluffy in the boil, barley any chill haze, the hops were very bright, great head and lacing, and it only took two weeks to bottle condition. I doubt the ion content had anything to do with the conditioning phase, but it was a nice bonus. And even though I didn't add and sodium to the beer in the boil, I remember it having a very interesting salinity characteristic to it.

I just want to get back to making beer like that.

Thanks again for all your hard work, patience and just relentless pursuit to making awesome beer!

You know I'm thinking maybe I should do a little more with my water, I currently have a bare minimum approach. I plug in my details here:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-c...watertarget=LightAndHoppy#section_TargetWater

And add a small amount of calcium chloride for the "Balanced" water profile. And I add either Citric Acid or Acidulated Malt to bring my mash pH to around 5.4-5.5.

I can usually get close enough with these to little things. Does anybody think I should do anything else? My LHBS likely has anything I could ever need.
Here's my Water Profile:

Water Report

Alkalinity 73
Calcium 48
Magnesium 7
Sodium. 33
Sulfate. 74
Bicarbonate 73
Chloride 38
Hardness 144
pH 8.2

I see 2-row casually tossed around with out specifying what maltster. The majority of 2-row seems to settle in the dist water ph of about 5.7. I've heard Rahr 2-row is known to settle in much lower at around a ph of 5.5. If this is the case would you forgo a 2% addition of sauermalz if using Rahr? Does anyone have experience with Rahr, or know about the process they are using that would cause their malt to be more acidic?

fantasticmrfox said:

I see 2-row casually tossed around with out specifying what maltster. The majority of 2-row seems to settle in the dist water ph of about 5.7. I've heard Rahr 2-row is known to settle in much lower at around a ph of 5.5.

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I have seen a number like that quoted for the DI mash pH of Rahr and I have seen reports of mashes made using Rahr as a base malt that have mash pH's much lower than can be explained by a base malt with a DI mash pH of 5.5.

fantasticmrfox said:

If this is the case would you forgo a 2% addition of sauermalz if using Rahr?

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I would advise, certainly in terms of the Primer, staying away from this malt until such time as someone gets solid data on it. If it is really as out in left field as it seems to be then it really wouldn't have a place in the Primer recommendations as the Primer is based on KISS which implies normal malts.

fantasticmrfox said:

Does anyone have experience with Rahr, or know about the process they are using that would cause their malt to be more acidic?

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One does see it mentioned from time to time here.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/water-chemistry-stout-520841/

Thanks AJ! I really appreciate all the work you have put into this forum. It took me over the course of a couple weeks, but I managed to read all 102 pages of the primer.

I will take your advice in regards to the Rahr.

I've read all 103 pages and learned quite a bit. How about partial mashes? Do you treat the water if you are only using some extract?

Bill

Where most of the fermentables come from extract you don't need to concern yourself with the pH controlling aspects of water treatment (calcium, sauermalz) as the syrup manufacturer should have done that for you. You may still wish to adjust sulfate and chloride (the so called stylistic ions) to adjust body and hops perception.

Thanks for the expeditious response. You guys are great.

Bill

I have a Scottish Wee Heavy all-grain batch to brew. Grain bill is as follows (5 gal batch).

--15.5 lbs. British Golden Promise
--0.5 lbs English Medium Crystal
--0.375 lbs Belgian Biscuit
--0.125 lbs Roasted Barley

I set up a water distiller and added both pre and post carbon block filters. So, carbon block filter > distiller > carbon block filter.

Which of the KISS water treatments would be most appropriate for the Wee Heavy?

whoaru99 said:

I have a Scottish Wee Heavy all-grain batch to brew. Grain bill is as follows (5 gal batch).

--15.5 lbs. British Golden Promise
--0.5 lbs English Medium Crystal
--0.375 lbs Belgian Biscuit
--0.125 lbs Roasted Barley

I set up a water distiller and added both pre and post carbon block filters. So, carbon block filter > distiller > carbon block filter.

Which of the KISS water treatments would be most appropriate for the Wee Heavy?

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You are distilling water?

I'd be tempted to assume that the colored malts would get you to about 5.6 and call that good enough. I would, however, want to check up on that with a pH meter.
'
Where to go with respect to chloride and sulfate will be something you'll have to decide. I always recommend starting out with chloride only and testing additions of sulfate to the resulting beer but if you know you like sulfate you could always do the other way round.

IslandLizard said:

You are distilling water?

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Yes.

I traded a guy an old fish finder for a 0.5 gph water distiller.

I've been thinking about distilling water.

ajdelange said:

I'd be tempted to assume that the colored malts would get you to about 5.6 and call that good enough. I would, however, want to check up on that with a pH meter.
'
Where to go with respect to chloride and sulfate will be something you'll have to decide. I always recommend starting out with chloride only and testing additions of sulfate to the resulting beer but if you know you like sulfate you could always do the other way round.

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Spaced out getting any minerals to make the water profile. At this point all I know for sure is my tap water is pretty hard, ~25 grains per gallon.

So, would you suggest just blending water 2:1 or 3:1, distilled to tap, in order to bring the hardness down?

whoaru99 said:

Spaced out getting any minerals to make the water profile.

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Can you put that in English?

whoaru99 said:

At this point all I know for sure is my tap water is pretty hard, ~25 grains per gallon.

So, would you suggest just blending water 2:1 or 3:1, distilled to tap, in order to bring the hardness down?

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I would suggest getting the water analyzed (Ward Labs) in order to know what you are up against. Without that information the only reasonable recommendation is to use RO or distilled water supplemented as suggested in the OP.

Alright, maybe next time then I will have a water analysis. I am brewing today so am going to mix 2:1 DI/distilled water to filtered tap water.

Oh, the previous means I forgot to get the CaCl when I was at the brew store.

To confirm what I believe to be true: If brewing with soft water or RO water, adding 2% of the grist in sauermalz will likely get the mash pH in the right range automatically?

Yes if the amount of colored specialty malts is low.

So, what do you think of this mess?

Certainly in terms of the Primer it is 'throwaway' water. There is the potential to decarbonate it but that is beyond this thread.

My cities water guy asked what numbers I would like to see on the city water report. Could someone cut/paste all of the information I would want to see on the reports?

See #1037. Add manganese and silica to that list.