Fullers recipes for ESB/Pride/Chiswick, Imperials, NEIPA - from the horse's mouth

[trav77]

They were originally 3-minute additions, but I changed them to 5 in order to squeeze out more IBUs. I guess I'll try much larger amounts at 2 minutes and see if it helps. I can cool 12 gallons down below 170 in a minute or two with my immersion chiller, so I wonder if the massive scale of a commercial setup means that they extract more bitterness as they cool thousands of gallons of wort?

I toured the brewery in 2014 and I was surprised at the small size of their hop storage room. They had the day's hops weighed out in 5-gallon buckets and there weren't all that many considering how large their batches are.

FWIW the late hops in the recipe convert directly to:

Goldings: 0.33 oz / 5 gal
Northdown: 0.79 oz / 5 gal
Challenger: 0.79 oz / 5 gal

This seems quite a bit higher than the BYO article: https://byo.com/recipe/fuller-s-the-pride-of-london/

Which uses: 0.35 oz each Northdown/Challenger in 5 gal.

Also one other thing, somewhat unrelated, to note is that this appears to be the UK keg version at 4.1% abv (OG given as 1.041 in the brew log) rather than the bottled version we get here in NA at 4.7%

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What UK keg version - you mean cask, shurely....?

Are you adjusting for copper losses? They're substantial. It's clearer with the non-partigyle beers, as I read it they're getting 260hl from (160+211hl) for the NEIPA, (231+185hl) for the stout and (231+166hl) for the IPA.

 

[trav77]

What UK keg version - you mean cask, shurely....?

Are you adjusting for copper losses? They're substantial. It's clearer with the non-partigyle beers, as I read it they're getting 260hl from (160+211hl) for the NEIPA, (231+185hl) for the stout and (231+166hl) for the IPA.

Ah yeah I misinterpreted how the brew log relates to the parti-gyle process. So the hops listed are total for both coppers? Now that I read the twitter feed it's mentioned that 2/3 of the hops are in the first copper and 1/3 in the 2nd. So maybe not so straightforward to translate the brew log into a simple recipe for London Pride.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I seem to recall where the target is 35 IBU (Tinseth) for Fuller's ESB. Variations from batch to batch may well be due to crop to crop variations in the measured AA's of the various hops.

 

[ESBrewer]

My third batch of ESB was bottled 2.5 wks ago and it is reaching full level of carbonation (1.9 vols) now. I opened one bottle today. I can confirm that it is by far the best Fuller's clone that I've done and very close to the original (much better than the previous that had ~10% crystal and 0.7% chocolate malt). The dry hop is of wrong type and I can see it very clearly now. Challenger/Northdown/EKG will give u a nice aroma, too, but the Target aroma is different and evident in the recent Fuller's ESBs I've tried. The bitterness is about right but I think I'll brew my fourth batch soon using maybe 6+% EBC150 crystal, only 0.2% chocolate (this time I had 4.9%/0.4%, respectively) and just a little more hops (Target as dry hop). I'll take some side by side pictures and compare this batch with original ESB in a week or so. Will post in the same thread then. At the moment I feel that it is possible to clone it exactly using Wyeast 1968 (probably with wlp002 as well).

 

[ESBrewer]

So here's how it looked taken from the fridge with chill haze on it

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ikwpfuw0l6rdZSfA2

The original filtered & bottled version from Fuller's brewery

https://photos.app.goo.gl/lcjpXSp2u2cm6qxN2

At room temp it stays almost crystal clear and they look very similar. This was about 94.7% MO, 4.2% ebc150 Crystal, 0.7% ebc225, 0.4% chocolate. There's not really difference in the maltiness but there should be even more hops, mainly flavor/aroma hops, overall bitterness is quite similar.

The fourth and ultimate batch is going to put more effort on post boil cooling and fining and will use some finings in the secondary vessel as well to combat the haze.

Malts are going to be fawcett MO, 6% ebc150 and 0.2% only chocolate. Going to calculate 35-37 IBUs but using 2min boil for the late kettle so the late kettle hop amount will be even higher. Changing the dry hops to target only. I think I'll brew in February. It is an intriguing project, especially now that I'm in the ballpark and it feels doable.

 

[user 246304]

I would be careful to heed this without taking note of the 30 minute whirlpool that's employed after knockout*. If you calculate enough hops to contribute 20% during just the last 3 minutes of the boil, then stand for 30 minutes before chilling, I think the beer may be excessively bitter.

I am struggling with this part right now - but have decided to use the ratios of hops stated in the recipe (from the first copper). The IBU estimate I'm seeing is only 25, but it's sure to increase with a 30 minute whirlpool.

*as described by the head brewer on a CYBI episode from 2010

Revisiting just this. I've no great way to predict WP additions, and also no great answer to try and modify process to get not only a predictable IBU, but good preservation of hop character.

Right now, I'm using Challenger to bitter on an OG of 1.058 for a 13 gallon batch. Challenger, Northdown and First Gold at 3 minutes to give 2.3%, 2.3% and 0.6% IBU contributions, respectively. Promash calculates this as 31.8% IBU but yes, this does not take into account the WP bittering, which I'd like to keep to 35.

Normally, any hops dropped during boil stay, then at knockout I drop my IC in and bring temp down to 180; IC cooling is killed and then any WP hops are dropped in and WP'ed x 30 minute; cooled; IC is removed; WP x 5 minute and settle x 15 minute.

McKnuckle, just wondering what you might have ended up with, using the nominal 25 IBUs. Were you pleased with the bitterness?

Secondly, mash temps - I'm stuck in what Martin Brungard, surely right, probably would call a beginner's flaw - I can't stand mashing in at beta ranges, always at least 151-2 and usually a tad higher. For a strong bitter, which I will likely do for both this ESB copy attempt and a First Gold strong bitter, I'm wont to come in at 154. I understand the logic of "pad the ordinary's, thin up on the stronger bitters" basically - but also have always liked a bit of dextrins in stronger bitters (the same doesn't hold true for strong dark ales, for me).

Thoughts?

 

[ESBrewer]

Mash temp..it probably depends on your taste and the grain and the recipe... I think with Maris Otter even at 65°C and OG1.060 I had probably slightly fuller body than the Fuller's. Their ESB certainly has the residual sugary(maltotriose/crystal) sweetness and yet the body is not extremely full and round but rather crisp. It is very easy to make it too heavy and round in maltiness and yet lacking some of the typical tastes (from hops and yeast mainly I think). It may be partly due to higher protein in my wort (quite a bit of chill haze last time). The supposed fullness of MO is one of the reason why I now brew it with another pale malt variety and also dropped OG back to 1.056. 65°C gave me FG 1.011. This is something that you should be targeting with Fuller's yeast in an ESB clone. As mentioned, I don't think Fuller's is using MO in this one (that is also what they have said earlier). The water will also affect the feeling, you need to have a good amount of gypsum to bring out the crispness. It is a combination of many things, of course the amount of dextrins is important, too.

 

[user 246304]

Mash temp..it probably depends on your taste and the grain and the recipe... I think with Maris Otter even at 65°C and OG1.060 I had probably slightly fuller body than the Fuller's. Their ESB certainly has the residual sugary(maltotriose/crystal) sweetness and yet the body is not extremely full and round but rather crisp. It is very easy to make it too heavy and round in maltiness and yet lacking some of the typical tastes (from hops and yeast mainly I think). It may be partly due to higher protein in my wort (quite a bit of chill haze last time). The supposed fullness of MO is one of the reason why I now brew it with another pale malt variety and also dropped OG back to 1.056. 65°C gave me FG 1.011. This is something that you should be targeting with Fuller's yeast in an ESB clone. As mentioned, I don't think Fuller's is using MO in this one (that is also what they have said earlier). The water will also affect the feeling, you need to have a good amount of gypsum to bring out the crispness. It is a combination of many things, of course the amount of dextrins is important, too.

I hear the wisdom in it, ESBrewer. I do love MO but probably need to break the addiction and experiment with other malts, and blending in, which I like. I'd thought to grab a bag of Golden Promise, and am intrigued by both Optic and Chevalier (though despair I can't get Chevalier here). I need to also break the addiction to my mashing in at 152 or higher. So with the 7.3% crystal (dark, 80 and 135-165) and 100% MO, I'll mash at 149F and see what I end up with.

I will say, looking back at an old "Special Bitter" mash schedule from a long time ago, I see I used to be a fan of ramped mashes; started at 146, rested x 20 minutes, but ramped at 1F/1min. intervals up to 153F, where I rested x 70 minutes. Then direct fired to 170F, mashed out x 15 min. rest.

I used to like to muck about but I guess at some point I thought all my splitting hairs probably amounted to no real difference in the finished product, so with that (plus a love of true, English tradition) went to single infusion mashing. Maybe I'll try 149F in these strong bitters, maybe I'll go back to that ramping schedule, maybe I'll try higher mash temps for lower OG bitters. I prefer managing mash temp to the use of specialty malts (i.e., dextrinous malts). At any rate, thanks for encouraging opening my mind.

 

[ESBrewer]

Uumph. Now that everything else seemed to go well (gravities, malts, color, so bright I can read anything through cold bottles), I think I made the mistake that has been discussed above. Namely, overdid the hop additions and extracted too much bitterness and harshness. Be careful and make small adjustments only. Hops must be the most challenging factor in brewing for beginners. Difficult to estimate / calculate because of the many possibilities how to add hops and because of the effects of post boil conditions. Just need to get more experienced with this.

 

[user 246304]

Like McKnuckle, I'm trying to stick to Fuller's ratios on the hopping, though I'm using Challenger for bittering, and my "goldings" is First Goldings. By Promash, this, too, gives me about 25IBUs. 3 minutes before knockout with a 30 minute WP and 30 min. stand, just like McKnuckler, then IC to bring it down (so there will be additional time above 180). We'll see. I'm going to dry hop the strong bitter with a lightish touch of First Gold.

 

[ESBrewer]

Ok, I can brew it! The hops could still be fine tuned slightly, but I think I will declare this one cloned because I think most people wouldn't notice the difference between this one and the original.

A generic recipe is
OG 1.057
FG 1.010-11

93.8% Crisp Best Ale Malt (Pale ale malt made of Flagon barley)
6% Fawcett Crystal malt (EBC150-175)
0.2% Crisp chocolate malt
1.3g gypsum per 1 kg of grain (powder added to the mash tun, leads to about max 300ppm sulphate in the wort)
base water is this (kloridi = chloride, alkaliteetti = alkalinity, kokonaiskovuus = total hardness)

MASH & SPARGE
65°C / 90min in an infusion mash tun
drain, then sparge only once with base water (no salts) adjusted to ~pH 6 with phosphoric acid
adjust volume / pre boil gravity with base water so that post boil the wort would have OG 1.057

Boil time 60 min

HOP SCHEDULE (all hops were whole cones inside hop bags):
60 min Target so that Beersmith estimates 26.2 IBUs
2.5 min Northdown BS estimate 4.1 IBUs (=almost 3x the amount of target)
2.5 min EKG BS estimate 1.1 IBUs
2.5 min Challenger BS estimate 4.4 IBUs (=same amount as northdown)

10 min Protafloc according to instructions

Removed bittering hop bag(target) at the end of boil. Cooled in ~15 mins to room temperature (so no whirlpool/stand but the late copper hops were still there during the rapid cooling process). Continued cooling until 15 °C using copper coil. Then removed late copper hops. Let the wort stand covered in a fridge for an hour or so. Carefully transferred the clear top phase to fermenter (5 liter glass carboy, 4+ liters of wort) and added just a little bit of boiled water to get it exactly to OG 1.057 (for me post-boil it was 1.059). Let it warm up to 17-18°C in a water bath. Then pitched the yeast slurry from a 0.4 liter starter of wyeast 1968. Fermentation took place submerged in a water bath. Temperature was controlled with some ice elements. Water temperature 17-->21°C gradient, time to reach FG was approximately 4-5 days. Then 2 more days at 21°C ('diacetyl rest'). Then cooled the primary down to 0.5°C in the fridge. 2 days there. Then transferred to two secondary vessels (2 liters each) with virtually no head space and added dry hops (cones in a weighted bag). Target ~1g/liter. Also tried 2g/l but that was probably a bit too much. I kept secondaries at 20°C for 2 days, then 3+ days at 0.5°C. Then removed the hop bags and added a little bit of NBS silica gel finings adjunct and after a while 0.15g/liter of dissolved gelatin. 3+ days again at 0.5°C. Bottled in Fuller's bottles and carbonated to 2.1 vols with boiled glucose solution. 25 days in a dark place at 21°C, then chilled down to serving temperature. On the left, my bottle carbonated version, on the right Fuller's bottled, exported ESB. The Target aroma is still more pungent in Fuller's beer compared to my 1g/l and the hops may express citrus a little bit more. But they are very close now, it is not easy to distinguish these two beers.

It has been a fascinating project (my first beer as a homebrewer) and I need to thank everybody for guidance and especially the Fuller's people who have kindly revealed how they do it. I think I will brew some bottles for the summer with minor modifications in hop amounts and process. I'll now turn to Bavarian wheats and some yeast work at home, although it would be nice to brew some mild bitters, too...

 

[thehaze]

That looks very nice. Congrats!

 

[Hanglow]

Good effort indeed

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Tomorrow they're brewing a special version of ESB, recreating the first beer that John Keeling was involved with in 1981 :
https://twitter.com/FullersHenry/status/999600817639436288
Worth noting that ESB won Champion Beer of Britain a few months later (also in 1978 and 1985)

 

[ESBrewer]

As I am unfamiliar with sugars in grain bill, what do you think is the main purpose of adding 50kgs (less than 1% of grain) of n°3 invert (ragus) sugar. Does this specific sugar lend some caramel taste, is it solely for color or is it purely for yeast health (providing some more rapid energy sources for yeast)? It is difficult to see that it would much affect the body and perception by thinning out the maltiness when the amount is so low. And the maize seems to be there to reduce the maltiness. And what do you think is the main reason many brewer's seem to have turned away from sugar (and maize) additions in British pale ales, but not in strong Belgian ales. These are ingredients that seem to be present in almost every recipe that dates back to 20th century. Is it more about the evolution of beer taste or is it more about a bad mental image associated with sugar in food (although yeast converts these sugars) that has led breweries, including Fuller's, to diminish sugar (and maize) in pale ales. Or is it just that they noticed the same thing (color) can be obtained with specialty grains (something that they probably knew already in the 19th century..).

 

[divrack]

Nice!
Surprisingly low on hops for anything CW had a hand in!

 

[pocketmon]

As I am unfamiliar with sugars in grain bill, what do you think is the main purpose of adding 50kgs (less than 1% of grain) of n°3 invert (ragus) sugar. Does this specific sugar lend some caramel taste, is it solely for color or is it purely for yeast health (providing some more rapid energy sources for yeast)? It is difficult to see that it would much affect the body and perception by thinning out the maltiness when the amount is so low. And the maize seems to be there to reduce the maltiness. And what do you think is the main reason many brewer's seem to have turned away from sugar (and maize) additions in British pale ales, but not in strong Belgian ales. These are ingredients that seem to be present in almost every recipe that dates back to 20th century. Is it more about the evolution of beer taste or is it more about a bad mental image associated with sugar in food (although yeast converts these sugars) that has led breweries, including Fuller's, to diminish sugar (and maize) in pale ales. Or is it just that they noticed the same thing (color) can be obtained with specialty grains (something that they probably knew already in the 19th century..).

I just red this. It has enough information for you question.
https://byo.com/article/sweetness-brewing-sugars-how-to-use-them/

 

[ESBrewer]

Thanks, I am aware of all that general technical knowledge (what different sugars might be doing), but I still don't know what is the driving force why British brewers changed from sugar/caramel to more crystal/roasted malts after maybe 100 years of brewing mainly with some invert sugars and maize. And what has been the main purpose of the invert sugar syrup in ESB, does it differ a lot from the increased crystal malt character. Hmm..maybe I have to brew the traditional version and see how it tastes, side by side.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

but I still don't know what is the driving force why British brewers changed from sugar/caramel to more crystal/roasted malts after maybe 100 years of brewing mainly with some invert sugars and maize. And what has been the main purpose of the invert sugar syrup in ESB, does it differ a lot from the increased crystal malt character.

Ron Pattinson's "Shut up about Barclay Perkins" blog (https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/) may be what you are looking for.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thanks, I am aware of all that general technical knowledge (what different sugars might be doing), but I still don't know what is the driving force why British brewers changed from sugar/caramel to more crystal/roasted malts after maybe 100 years of brewing mainly with some invert sugars and maize. And what has been the main purpose of the invert sugar syrup in ESB, does it differ a lot from the increased crystal malt character. Hmm..maybe I have to brew the traditional version and see how it tastes, side by side.

The driving force was CAMRA whose logic, ignoring 150 years of history went :

Macro beer used adjuncts.
Macro beer was Bad Beer.
Therefore adjunct beer is Bad Beer.
Therefore Good Beer cannot be made with adjuncts

So there was a lot of pressure on the "good guys" to drop the use of adjuncts, even if this version of ESB used adjuncts and was good enough to become Champion Beer of Britain. Another minor factor was joining the EU led to higher prices for Britain's traditional brewing sugar, from Caribbean cane, relative to domestic beet sugar which isn't as good for brewing.

Yes, invert #3 will add a little flavour, but don't ignore the 100kg of glucose that will "dilute" the flavour so overall I'd look at that 150kg of sugar mix as a cheap approximation to dry malt extract. It's the sort of thing commercial brewers do for consistency, to hit their OG targets. Also it allows you to "stretch" the brew a bit, either for money reasons or eg because your mash tun only holds 5.25 tonnes of grain and a poor harvest means that you need 5.4 tonnes to hit your OG target.

The main effect of that sugar is just to dry it out a little bit when you're using a low-attenuating yeast.

 

[ESBrewer]

Thanks, so using the syrup, sugar and maize could give you something that is actually quite similar to malt (in a bit more fermentable package) but these additions gave a little bit more flexibility to the process. Personally, I am not sure if I would like to dry this beer out below 1.010 so I think I'll go without adjuncts in the future, too. But it could be nice to try it with a bit darker crystal, using less crystal than the modern recipe.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Another page from the brewbook for next Tuesday - Henry wanted to show off the fact he'd written it with a proper ink pen. Only the bittering hops are showing at the moment; given that it's an ESB +3xPride batch, it gets a tonne more grain than the one at the start of the thread which was a ESB:2 Pride:Chiswick brew. Obviously using ?2017 Target with a bit less alpha than ?previous harvest?.

 

[ESBrewer]

I just bottled an ESB that was brewed with the yeast extracted from a bottle of their 1845. There is an unusual heat wave in Northern Europe and it was too difficult to control the temperature of my water bath so I eventually gave up. I started out at 20C and after a day or so the temp went up to 24-26C for the rest of the fermentation. It has a very distinct orange marmalade character and I didn't notice the higher alcohols or ketones too much. This is exactly the taste that makes this beer so unique, when it combines with the refreshing hop bitterness. The yeast behaved much like wyeast 1968, FG, OG, other fermentation characteristics were similar. Used Fawcett's Golden Promise and that seems to work well in this type of beer, too.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I picked up a bottle of Imperial Stout today, I assume dating back to that pre-Christmas brew? Waitrose have it in a blue version of the Vintage box at £8/500ml (!) I'm in two minds whether to keep it or just drink it - not really the weather for it at the moment, but that price doesn't exactly encourage buying a couple to keep on spec....

 

[Hanglow]

Some of the Waitroses were selling those off after xmas at half price, along with the vintage ale. Not all of them though for some reason

 

[ESBrewer]

Their yeast (at least the single colony I picked) seems to form less sediment in the bottles compared to the wyeast strain, indicating that yeast from the bottle could be more flocculent. But there could be other explanations for this. Need to brew again when the weather gets cooler so that all the temps are comparable.

 

[ESBrewer]

I just tasted Fuller's 1981 Past Masters version of ESB (see the recipe above). I must say that it's very bland and thin compared to the new one, so it seems that they've made a lot of progress here. There is not much of that nice hop aroma and the body is definitely watery (thanks to the maize and dextrose), although the color is deeper compared to the modern version and head is less white (yellowish) in color. I would go with the modern version, anytime!

 

[Hanglow]

That's a shame. The version they did last year with Moor that was based on the 1971 recipe was excellent, although i think the hops were different


just reading through the thread again, i see i posted in it earlier on that that ESB "Rebirth" was good

also there are still packs of the fuller &friends multipack from last year still available in some waitroses . guess it didnt sell well

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I had the 1981 version on cask against the modern one at the GBBF and I would have been quite that rude about it - yes it was thinner and a touch less flavoursome, but recognisably the same beer. I had the bottle version on its own yesterday at BrewCon with John Keeling - I waited until the crowds died down, so unfortunately the modern one had run out, again it didn't seem _so_ far from the current one, but I'll admit I'm not a regular drinker of it.

Various points that came out of yesterday :
One thing I hadn't really thought about as a reason for partigyling is that it allows much more effective management of energy suppplies, you can arrange it so that you're not boiling the whole wort at the same time.
They tend to aim slightly high for gravity, and then dilute with up to 5% water.
Declaration is the point at which they declare the specs of the wort to the tax authorities for duty.
London Pride is roughly 50:50 mix of the two mashes - about 2/3 of the malt go in the first one for 1.080, the second is 1.018 (?? didn't quite catch this).

Fuller's started sparging in the early 1900s - originally in 3 floods. They adopted continuous sparging once technology was developed.
Pride is about 2/3 their volume.

I'd not heard before that one reason for using flaked maize was to help finings to work, and he thought it "opened out" the flavour a bit.

They centrifuge out all the yeast, then add back 0.5m cells/ml for conditioning where appropriate, it is the production strain in the bottles.
They used the modern single strain (which latest research suggests is a double strain) for recreating old beers like the 1891 XX - he was a bit vague about using the original strain, I suspect it had to fit in with current production so they had to use modern yeast in the conicals.

He used to think Vintage was best at 5 years, now things it's 10.
They've been on municipal water since the 1900s, they just add gypsum and adjust pH.