Fullers recipes for ESB/Pride/Chiswick, Imperials, NEIPA - from the horse's mouth

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Northern_Brewer

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The Fuller's brewers have been giving Twitter some peeks at their brewing book over the last few months - and clarifying a few points in the subsequent tweets :

The big one - the partigyle recipe for 260hl:520hl:260hl of ESB:London Pride:Chiswick Bitter :
https://twitter.com/FullersHayley/status/946762356914352133

Their 10.7% Imperial Stout and 10.5% Imperial IPA :
https://twitter.com/FullersHenry/status/940884021273333760

The Olicana/Simcoe/Chinook NEIPA collaboration with Cloudwater :
https://twitter.com/FullersHenry/status/892656324781232128

fullers esb pride chiswick.jpg
fullers impipa.jpg
fullers impstout.jpg
fullers cloudwater neipa.jpg
 

ESBrewer

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Great stuff and people, thanks for sharing this NB. At least I'm in the right ball park now. Seems that the crystal in parti-gyle is now lighter than couple of years ago but the amount is a bit higher (although the exact malt is not defined and the definition of light could vary). And the amount of chocolate used to tilt color seems very small (0.2% of total weight).
 
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day_trippr

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Ok, for the NEIPA late hop additions, what phases of the brew process do "declaration", "chill", and "MV" refer to?

Cheers!

[edit] nvm, read through the Twitter feed...
 

ESBrewer

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^ I don't know the exact fermentation schedule for their NEIPA, but FV means fermentation vessel so these are the dry hops. Declaration probably means in the beginning of fermentation (or the first of these additions at least), chill is when they cool down the vessel (for the parti-gyle brews they chill down for I think 1-2 days in the primary immediately post fermentation then transfer to secondary, heat up for some days to condition and then again cool down for a 'cold crash', NEIPA could be different). MV could be maturation vessel (secondary, I think). When brewing cask beers they tend to add dry hops even in the cask. Bottled beers receive some extra hops in the primary/secondary. This is approximately what former head brewer told in an interview in 2010.
 
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Hanglow

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Is the No3 Powder below the gypsum addition the same as the BYF No3 that Murphy's sell for brewing? As in Sodium Hydrogen Sulphate

also only just noticed they used potassium chloride in their stout there

always good to see them use some of the brewing sugar too :) And I'lll try 1g of black pepper in my next IPA :)
 

day_trippr

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If I have the NEIPA notes/comments correct:

- Mash just under 153 with 168°F mash-out/sparge
- Zero boil hop additions
- Epic pile of Simcoe whirlpooled at 205°F
- Olicana added once fermentation is evident ("declaration"). Apparently they run their yeast blend at ~59°F.
- Simcoe added post-fermentation/chilling down to ~43°F
- Chinook dry-hopped in "maturation vessel", presumably at 43°F

Only thing missing is the time schedule from start to finish.
But one could ball-park the whirlpool duration given the near-boiling temperature, and the rest likely follows the typical neipa post-fermentation timing.

Never heard of making an apparently quite effective filter - of something - using a metric crap load of oat husks.
And anyone use "Olicana" hops yet? That's a new strain for me...

Cheers!
 

Hanglow

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I had the NEIPA and wouldn't call it that btw, here's a picture I took of it


I think it was in tanks for about 12 weeks or so before it was released? which is a fair bit of time.

It was however a very nice hoppy beer, albeit with a fairly muted aroma for its size - think more modern pale ale than modern IPA .


oat husks are what is used in the uk instead of rice hulls for stopping getting a stuck mash
 
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Northern_Brewer

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Declaration probably means in the beginning of fermentation...MV could be maturation vessel
See the Twitter threads - declaration is "the start of fermentation", MV is maturation vessel.

always good to see them use some of the brewing sugar too :) And I'lll try 1g of black pepper in my next IPA :)
Surely British brewers using sugar is so commonplace to be unremarkable? It's the logistics of quarter of a tonne of treacle that boggles the mind, there's a pic on Twitter with several ?25kg buckets. Also worth noting that even though most people would regard Fuller's as being generous with the crystal, and your comment that they're now using more - they are still only using 7.2% crystal in the main partigyle.

If I have the NEIPA notes/comments correct:

...Only thing missing is the time schedule from start to finish.
But one could ball-park the whirlpool duration given the near-boiling temperature, and the rest likely follows the typical neipa post-fermentation timing.

Never heard of making an apparently quite effective filter - of something - using a metric crap load of oat husks.
And anyone use "Olicana" hops yet? That's a new strain for me...
You can probably cross-reference some of the process with the Cloudwater blog, eg for DIPA v1 and the DIPA series.

As Hanglow says, in the UK we can grow oats but not rice, so oat husks are what the processors have available as waste product to use as a mash tun filter.

Olicana is a 2014 release from the Faram breeding programme. It was hyped as giving tropical flavours from British terroir - but more muted, it's nothing like Galaxy - but it seems rather hit and miss. I'm not sure if they haven't quite worked out the right time to harvest it or something, which was a problem in the early days of hops like Citra.It certainly doesn't seem to have gained the traction of its sister Jester, but you can get it from British suppliers like BrewUK and Malt Miller. (no affiliation)

I had the NEIPA and wouldn't call it that btw...I think it was in tanks for about 12 weeks or so before it was released? which is a fair bit of time....
I'm not clear whether they just did the one brew on 3rd August or whether they brewed it again for the Fuller's & Friends pack now available in Waitrose. I'd be surprised if Cloudwater would have allowed such a long wait, but Fuller's brew, Fuller's rules....

The NZ saison with Marble is lovely though.
 

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My favourite beer from that pack was the ESB they brewed with Moor, but they were all very good with the exception of the lager with fourpure (who make excellent lagers themselves) which I didn't particularly think much of

As for sugar, most breweries don't use it any more do they? some of the old trad ones do and I wish more did, but most succumbed to the "sugar is bad/cheap" bollocks
 
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Haven't got to the ESB yet - is it worth getting a bottle of normal ESB to have side-by-side, or have they gone too far towards the US for the comparison to be relevant? I've also just noticed the Dec 2019 BB date - I'm sure Cloudwater are thrilled about that!!!

I see some kind of sugar in most of the brewery warehouses I visit, although it may be that like here they save it for the higher ABV specials rather than the session beers. But to give one example, that recipe in the blog link above has glucose syrup in it, you don't get much more non-trad than a Cloudwater DIPA!!!

A few more quotes from the Twitter replies I meant to add :
@FullersHayley: We do approx 2/3 [of the hops] in the 1st copper and 1/3 in the second copper

@FullersHayley: we use the same Fullers yeast for all Fullers beers, that's what gives many of them that hint of marmalade :)

@FullersHenry: Imperial is @SimpsonsMalt specialty malt which to be is a bit like the missing link between Amber and Munich.

@SaddestOfFields: Am I reading that right as Black Pepper in the IPA? For a boost in Linalool, Pinene and Limonene?
@FullersHenry: Yes a fun idea that seems to work- albeit in very small doses. We had fun (and some disasters ) small scale trialling how much to use.
This article talks about brewing with the different types of "pepper" corns, although 2 teaspoons in 5 gal at 10 minutes is rather different to Fuller's 1g in 26 litres equivalent at flameout. It's something I've been meaning to try.

Oh, and @day_trippr - Fuller's no longer have a yeast blend, they've been single-strain since moving to conicals in the late-70s.
 

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Oh, and @day_trippr - Fuller's no longer have a yeast blend, they've been single-strain since moving to conicals in the late-70s.
Yes, but do you think NEIPA could use yeast or even yeast blend from Cloudwater as it is brewed in collaboration? Then they have the Gales brewery yeast that is used in the Gales HSB and probably Seafarer's ale brewed now by Fuller's.
 
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Yes, but do you think NEIPA could use yeast or even yeast blend from Cloudwater as it is brewed in collaboration? Then they have the Gales brewery yeast that is used in the Gales HSB and probably Seafarer's ale brewed now by Fuller's.
Nah - I read it as "if it's Fuller's on the label, it's the Fuller's yeast". Cloudwater don't have their own yeast, they often use WLP095 and WLP4000 (and on their blog talk quite a bit about the differences, they're not the same "Conan") and are fascinated by the old yeasts of the family companies - they've used the Lees' yeast a lot in their own beers.
 

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Haven't got to the ESB yet - is it worth getting a bottle of normal ESB to have side-by-side, or have they gone too far towards the US for the comparison to be relevant?
I actually bought a bottle of ESB to try side by side with the other bottle of it I have. not done so yet but I am looking forward to doing so
 

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Very interesting, as Fuller's ESB and London Pride are two of my favorite beers. I was hoping that these records would give me some insight on brewing a clone, but I'll admit that I don't really understand them and I understand the process of partigyling even less. I brewed an ESB clone a few weeks ago and it was great, but the marmalade taste was nowhere to be found. Perhaps I fermented too cool? Any suggestions to get that great flavor out of 1968?
 
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Can someone put these into 5g recipes? I would be really really thankful.
Well most of them are sized for 260hl, so just by replacing kg for grams you'll get the right amounts for 26 litres. Then multiply by 0.73 and you'll get to the right amounts for 5 US gallons... Having said that, they will be getting much higher efficiency than the average homebrewer, so converting kg to g will probably give the right amount for 20-21 litres.

Gets a little bit complicated with the partigyle though :

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/brew-strong-questions-with-fullers-part-1/
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/brew-strong-questions-with-fullers-part-2/
Individual clones : http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/?s=fuller

http://allaboutbeer.com/quirks-of-brewing-parti-gyle-brewing/
Fuller’s uses two mash tuns, staggered so that one is resting while one is being collected into a copper. Georgina Young, Fuller’s current Brewing Manager, described it for me. “The mash tun stand is simple infusion at 65° C [149° F] of 50 minutes. We then recirculate the bed for 10 minutes until the wort is clear and start collecting it in the copper.” They collect the first worts from both mash tuns—the high-gravity worts—into one kettle (known in Britain as a copper). Young continues: “When [the first kettle] is full (520HL) we continue the sparge on both mash tuns but collect the [small] worts into the second copper. The last runnings are typically 1005 SG for both mash tuns.”

They boil the strong and weak worts separately, adding hops at the start and end of the 60-minute boil. “So we now start proportioning the wort to make the beers,” Young explains. “We know the target extract, so all we have to do is calculate how much first wort and then second wort is needed to achieve 260HL in each fermentation vessel at the correct original gravity.” And from these two worts come the four beers, in strengths of 8.5% (Golden Pride), 5.9% (ESB), 4.7% (London Pride), and 3.5% (Chiswick).
They don't always (usually?) brew Golden Pride though.

https://byo.com/recipe/fuller-s-the-pride-of-london/
“It’s the same grist for each of those beers,” said Keeling. “Very simple. 95% British pale ale malt with 5% crystal malt (with a color of 75 °L). We mash it for 60 minutes between 64–65 °C (147–149 °F) and recirculate the runnings until clear. We begin sparging with 76 °C (169 °F) water and then start to collect the runnings. The first runnings all go into the first copper, which is completely filled as the sparging continues. This will be higher gravity. A second copper is filled with the rest of the runnings. Then each copper has a one-hour boil with the first copper using a much higher percentage of bittering hops than the second, lower-gravity, copper. We use Target as our bittering hops. Then we pitch yeast for both coppers at 17 °C (63 °F) before raising the temperature up to 20 °C (68 °F) for the main fermentation. Then it is lowered again.”

Keeling and his crew blend back the two collections of runnings in various percentages to come up with their four different beers. Golden Pride, an 8.5% ABV barleywine, will have the highest percentage of the first, high-gravity, copper. On the other end of the scale, Chiswick Bitter weighing in at 3.5% ABV, would use the highest percentage of the second copper containing lower-gravity runnings. Falling in the middle are ESB at 5.9% ABV and London Pride with an ABV of 4.7%.

While homebrewers can certainly experiment with parti-gyle techniques to produce multiple beers from a single batch, Keeling doesn’t think it is a necessity to brew recreations of these Fuller’s classics at home. “You can certainly get close to making these beers using a single recipe for each. You don’t need to brew parti-gyle to get close,” said Keeling. Keeling reviewed our clone recipes for London Pride, ESB and London Porter and you can find this collection of recipes below.
 
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ESBrewer

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I don't think it is necessary to parti-gyle (make several beers from a single mash) at home if you don't want to play around with it. It is mainly for commercial efficiency (they get the most out of grains, hops & equipment and may use as single mash & sparge to produce several related beers in certain ratios based on their demand).

A generalized recipe is something like

92.6% (in weight) British 2-row pale ale malt (any, but they seem to use Propino & Concerto barley at the moment so no need to be Maris Otter)
7.2% Crystal (EBC about 100-150 or 40-60 Lovibond), don't make it with 9-10% EBC150 if u want to nail it
0.2% Chocolate malt (for some color)

The exact amount of grain should be so that you end up with OG of 1.055-59 for ESB or 1.040-42 for LP.
Bittering 60min hop is Target only and it should bring about 80% of the total IBUs that are about 35 for both these beers. (Use calculator to estimate amounts).

Late copper hops are added just minutes (2-3min) before the end of boil and are something like 45%/45%/10% (in terms of IBUs) Challenger/Northdown/EKG. Totaling 20% of the IBUs (~7 IBUs of the total 35).

Pitch at 18C and at half gravity increase until you reach 20-21C. When ready you can cool down to drop some more yeast and transfer to secondary with some dry hops (they seem to use target here). Could then cold crash.

Something you need to figure out yourself is the pitch rate and exact temperatures you like for the 1968 or WLP002 that may differ slightly from the current yeast at Fuller's. Could also try to extract yeast from a bottle of 1845 if not happy with commercial yeasts. Mash temp may need to be adjusted to match your needs, the sheet would say now it was 71C which is high, 2010 they used just 5% EBC150 crystal and 64-65C mash without chocolate malt but probably colored with brewer's caramel, I think.

Most waters need to be burtonized using CaSO4 and pH adjusted to X. Level of carbonation should be quite low even in the bottled versions. A nice thing is that you don't need to drink it ice cold so that a little bit of chill haze may not affect the looks too much.
 
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Derp

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A generalized recipe is something like
Thanks for the tips! Your screen name leads me to believe that you’re an expert. :) I adjusted my last recipe to conform more closely to your figures. Does it look ok?

This is the water profile that I used last time. I use RO water:

Calcium 116
Magnesium 4
Sodium 28
Sulphate 194
Chloride 85
Mash pH 5.3

75% efficiency
OG 1.059
36.4 IBU
10.3 SRM
5.8% ABV (Expected FG 1.015)

23 lbs Maris Otter Malt (Muntons) (3.0 SRM 92.6 %
1 lbs 12.5 oz Crystal, English (Muntons) (52.0 SRM) 7.2 %
1.0 oz Chocolate Malt (Muntons) (425.0 SRM) 0.3 %

Mash at 149F.

2.00 oz Target 8.6 [8.60 %] - Boil 60.0 min 29.0 IBUs
1.25 oz Challenger [6.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min 2.9 IBUs
1.25 oz Northdown [7.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min 3.3 IBUs
0.50 oz East Kent Goldings (EKG) [7.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min 1.2 IBUs

Ferment at 68F.

Dry hop with 1 oz of EKG for 3 or 4 days.

I may add a few mililiters of homemade caramel coloring bump up the color to where I like it.
 

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^ You'll be in the right ballpark, I think. But cloning it exactly depends on esters, exact balance between hops and malts and other small details. I'm just a beginner who has recently put some effort to find out how it should be done. Brewed two batches that were a bit too crystal/dark (~9% EBC150 + 0.7 / 1% chocolate) and with too little hop aroma. First batch had wlp002 and less chocolate and was definitely closer than the second with ringwood "cola" yeast & too much dark tones. Third batch used some of the above guidelines from Keeling, 1968 yeast and secondary vessel. It is definitely going to be my best so far. It probably still needs some fine tuning. But the carbonation of third batch is going to take about two more weeks so it is too early to say for sure. I feel the color is not far from the original (I have 4.2% of EBC150 crystal 0.7% EBC225 crystal and 0.4% chocolate now).

If I would change something in your recipe so I would focus on late kettle hops by calculating the same IBUs with just 2 min boil time because that gives much more hops in grams -> more aromas/even flavor with same amount of bitterness. I think Keeling stressed out in an interview that the amount of EKG is low on purpose. But that's really up to your taste.
 
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Silver_Is_Money

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For a roughly 5.5 gallons to the fermenter batch simply multiply KG as seen in the Fullers recipes by 0.00175 for pounds, or multiply by 0.028 for ounces. That should get you close enough for a good starting point.

And for 11 gallons to the fermenter multiply by 0.0035 for pounds and by 0.056 for ounces.
 

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If I would change something in your recipe so I would focus on late kettle hops by calculating the same IBUs with just 2 min boil time because that gives much more hops in grams -> more aromas/even flavor with same amount of bitterness.
They were originally 3-minute additions, but I changed them to 5 in order to squeeze out more IBUs. I guess I'll try much larger amounts at 2 minutes and see if it helps. I can cool 12 gallons down below 170 in a minute or two with my immersion chiller, so I wonder if the massive scale of a commercial setup means that they extract more bitterness as they cool thousands of gallons of wort?

I toured the brewery in 2014 and I was surprised at the small size of their hop storage room. They had the day's hops weighed out in 5-gallon buckets and there weren't all that many considering how large their batches are.
 
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the amount of EKG is low on purpose.
Question to which I don't know the answer - is it really EKG? The fact they wrote "Goldings" in the book suggests to me that they're Hereford Goldings rather than the more expensive (and quicker to write) EKG.

When adjusting to 5 gallons, make sure to allow for different efficiencies - which gets complicated if sugars and other compounds come out at relatively different rates to theirs (ie eg 70% efficiency in sugar extraction but 60% or 80% for flavour compounds)....
 

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^ Yes that might be the case, they only say Goldings everywhere. I also thought about the possibility that sugars and flavors and even colored compounds will be extracted at different times. My third batch was done with a brief batch sparge only. This was to mimick the nature of parti-gyle where (although everything will be sparged from the grains in > 200 minutes) ESB contains more compounds from the first runnings coming out of the tuns (first copper), compared to London Pride or Chiswick. Especially when/if they are not brewing Golden Pride (this seems to be the case in the sheet shown in twitter post).
 
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Mash temp may need to be adjusted to match your needs, the sheet would say now it was 71C which is high...
I did a bunch of math and determined that 71ºC is actually the strike temp needed to hit a mash temp of 147.5ºF.

Most waters need to be burtonized using CaSO4 and pH adjusted to X.
If you follow their stated rate of 1.33g/kg of gypsum (using grist weight), you'll get a kettle SO4 level of about 120 ppm and a Ca level of around 50 ppm in RO/distilled water. Numbers will vary a bit of course, depending on your system. But they are good ballpark figures.
 

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Late copper hops are added just minutes (2-3min) before the end of boil and are something like 45%/45%/10% (in terms of IBUs) Challenger/Northdown/EKG. Totaling 20% of the IBUs (~7 IBUs of the total 35).
I would be careful to heed this without taking note of the 30 minute whirlpool that's employed after knockout*. If you calculate enough hops to contribute 20% during just the last 3 minutes of the boil, then stand for 30 minutes before chilling, I think the beer may be excessively bitter.

I am struggling with this part right now - but have decided to use the ratios of hops stated in the recipe (from the first copper). The IBU estimate I'm seeing is only 25, but it's sure to increase with a 30 minute whirlpool.

*as described by the head brewer on a CYBI episode from 2010
 

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Could be if you do the hot 30 min whirlpool, I only do some whirlpool while chilling the wort in a bath and it is cooling down already. Used 4 mins for calculations and boil myself and I feel it is by no means excessively hoppy or bitter. But it depends on how much you dry hop etc. and I haven't tasted it post carbonation.
 

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The ESB recipe appears to have changed since 2010. From an interview with the Fuller's brewer on The Brewing Network show Can You Brew It, April 25, 2010, the recipe contained 5% crystal 150 EBC, and no chocolate malt was used.
 

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I agree with that recipe observation, and I keep wondering how light crystal will produce an SRM of greater than about 8. I need to bump up the crystal Lovibond to 80 in order to approach the color of ESB. Light UK crystal tops out at about 40.

Notice how the same "cry light" nomenclature is in the IPA recipe.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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The ESB recipe appears to have changed since 2010. From an interview with the Fuller's brewer on The Brewing Network show Can You Brew It, April 25, 2010, the recipe contained 5% crystal 150 EBC, and no chocolate malt was used.
What EBC (or Lovibond) of crystal are they presently using for ESB? I thought they used 75L or 90L UK crystal.
 
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trav77

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They were originally 3-minute additions, but I changed them to 5 in order to squeeze out more IBUs. I guess I'll try much larger amounts at 2 minutes and see if it helps. I can cool 12 gallons down below 170 in a minute or two with my immersion chiller, so I wonder if the massive scale of a commercial setup means that they extract more bitterness as they cool thousands of gallons of wort?

I toured the brewery in 2014 and I was surprised at the small size of their hop storage room. They had the day's hops weighed out in 5-gallon buckets and there weren't all that many considering how large their batches are.
FWIW the late hops in the recipe convert directly to:

Goldings: 0.33 oz / 5 gal
Northdown: 0.79 oz / 5 gal
Challenger: 0.79 oz / 5 gal

This seems quite a bit higher than the BYO article: https://byo.com/recipe/fuller-s-the-pride-of-london/

Which uses: 0.35 oz each Northdown/Challenger in 5 gal.

Also one other thing, somewhat unrelated, to note is that this appears to be the UK keg version at 4.1% abv (OG given as 1.041 in the brew log) rather than the bottled version we get here in NA at 4.7%
 
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What UK keg version - you mean cask, shurely....? :)

Are you adjusting for copper losses? They're substantial. It's clearer with the non-partigyle beers, as I read it they're getting 260hl from (160+211hl) for the NEIPA, (231+185hl) for the stout and (231+166hl) for the IPA.
 

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What UK keg version - you mean cask, shurely....? :)

Are you adjusting for copper losses? They're substantial. It's clearer with the non-partigyle beers, as I read it they're getting 260hl from (160+211hl) for the NEIPA, (231+185hl) for the stout and (231+166hl) for the IPA.
Ah yeah I misinterpreted how the brew log relates to the parti-gyle process. So the hops listed are total for both coppers? Now that I read the twitter feed it's mentioned that 2/3 of the hops are in the first copper and 1/3 in the 2nd. So maybe not so straightforward to translate the brew log into a simple recipe for London Pride.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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I seem to recall where the target is 35 IBU (Tinseth) for Fuller's ESB. Variations from batch to batch may well be due to crop to crop variations in the measured AA's of the various hops.
 

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My third batch of ESB was bottled 2.5 wks ago and it is reaching full level of carbonation (1.9 vols) now. I opened one bottle today. I can confirm that it is by far the best Fuller's clone that I've done and very close to the original (much better than the previous that had ~10% crystal and 0.7% chocolate malt). The dry hop is of wrong type and I can see it very clearly now. Challenger/Northdown/EKG will give u a nice aroma, too, but the Target aroma is different and evident in the recent Fuller's ESBs I've tried. The bitterness is about right but I think I'll brew my fourth batch soon using maybe 6+% EBC150 crystal, only 0.2% chocolate (this time I had 4.9%/0.4%, respectively) and just a little more hops (Target as dry hop). I'll take some side by side pictures and compare this batch with original ESB in a week or so. Will post in the same thread then. At the moment I feel that it is possible to clone it exactly using Wyeast 1968 (probably with wlp002 as well).
 
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ESBrewer

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So here's how it looked taken from the fridge with chill haze on it

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ikwpfuw0l6rdZSfA2

The original filtered & bottled version from Fuller's brewery

https://photos.app.goo.gl/lcjpXSp2u2cm6qxN2

At room temp it stays almost crystal clear and they look very similar. This was about 94.7% MO, 4.2% ebc150 Crystal, 0.7% ebc225, 0.4% chocolate. There's not really difference in the maltiness but there should be even more hops, mainly flavor/aroma hops, overall bitterness is quite similar.

The fourth and ultimate batch is going to put more effort on post boil cooling and fining and will use some finings in the secondary vessel as well to combat the haze.

Malts are going to be fawcett MO, 6% ebc150 and 0.2% only chocolate. Going to calculate 35-37 IBUs but using 2min boil for the late kettle so the late kettle hop amount will be even higher. Changing the dry hops to target only. I think I'll brew in February. It is an intriguing project, especially now that I'm in the ballpark and it feels doable.
 

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I would be careful to heed this without taking note of the 30 minute whirlpool that's employed after knockout*. If you calculate enough hops to contribute 20% during just the last 3 minutes of the boil, then stand for 30 minutes before chilling, I think the beer may be excessively bitter.

I am struggling with this part right now - but have decided to use the ratios of hops stated in the recipe (from the first copper). The IBU estimate I'm seeing is only 25, but it's sure to increase with a 30 minute whirlpool.

*as described by the head brewer on a CYBI episode from 2010
Revisiting just this. I've no great way to predict WP additions, and also no great answer to try and modify process to get not only a predictable IBU, but good preservation of hop character.

Right now, I'm using Challenger to bitter on an OG of 1.058 for a 13 gallon batch. Challenger, Northdown and First Gold at 3 minutes to give 2.3%, 2.3% and 0.6% IBU contributions, respectively. Promash calculates this as 31.8% IBU but yes, this does not take into account the WP bittering, which I'd like to keep to 35.

Normally, any hops dropped during boil stay, then at knockout I drop my IC in and bring temp down to 180; IC cooling is killed and then any WP hops are dropped in and WP'ed x 30 minute; cooled; IC is removed; WP x 5 minute and settle x 15 minute.

McKnuckle, just wondering what you might have ended up with, using the nominal 25 IBUs. Were you pleased with the bitterness?

Secondly, mash temps - I'm stuck in what Martin Brungard, surely right, probably would call a beginner's flaw - I can't stand mashing in at beta ranges, always at least 151-2 and usually a tad higher. For a strong bitter, which I will likely do for both this ESB copy attempt and a First Gold strong bitter, I'm wont to come in at 154. I understand the logic of "pad the ordinary's, thin up on the stronger bitters" basically - but also have always liked a bit of dextrins in stronger bitters (the same doesn't hold true for strong dark ales, for me).

Thoughts?
 

ESBrewer

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Mash temp..it probably depends on your taste and the grain and the recipe... I think with Maris Otter even at 65°C and OG1.060 I had probably slightly fuller body than the Fuller's. Their ESB certainly has the residual sugary(maltotriose/crystal) sweetness and yet the body is not extremely full and round but rather crisp. It is very easy to make it too heavy and round in maltiness and yet lacking some of the typical tastes (from hops and yeast mainly I think). It may be partly due to higher protein in my wort (quite a bit of chill haze last time). The supposed fullness of MO is one of the reason why I now brew it with another pale malt variety and also dropped OG back to 1.056. 65°C gave me FG 1.011. This is something that you should be targeting with Fuller's yeast in an ESB clone. As mentioned, I don't think Fuller's is using MO in this one (that is also what they have said earlier). The water will also affect the feeling, you need to have a good amount of gypsum to bring out the crispness. It is a combination of many things, of course the amount of dextrins is important, too.
 
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Gadjobrinus

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Mash temp..it probably depends on your taste and the grain and the recipe... I think with Maris Otter even at 65°C and OG1.060 I had probably slightly fuller body than the Fuller's. Their ESB certainly has the residual sugary(maltotriose/crystal) sweetness and yet the body is not extremely full and round but rather crisp. It is very easy to make it too heavy and round in maltiness and yet lacking some of the typical tastes (from hops and yeast mainly I think). It may be partly due to higher protein in my wort (quite a bit of chill haze last time). The supposed fullness of MO is one of the reason why I now brew it with another pale malt variety and also dropped OG back to 1.056. 65°C gave me FG 1.011. This is something that you should be targeting with Fuller's yeast in an ESB clone. As mentioned, I don't think Fuller's is using MO in this one (that is also what they have said earlier). The water will also affect the feeling, you need to have a good amount of gypsum to bring out the crispness. It is a combination of many things, of course the amount of dextrins is important, too.
I hear the wisdom in it, ESBrewer. I do love MO but probably need to break the addiction and experiment with other malts, and blending in, which I like. I'd thought to grab a bag of Golden Promise, and am intrigued by both Optic and Chevalier (though despair I can't get Chevalier here). I need to also break the addiction to my mashing in at 152 or higher. So with the 7.3% crystal (dark, 80 and 135-165) and 100% MO, I'll mash at 149F and see what I end up with.

I will say, looking back at an old "Special Bitter" mash schedule from a long time ago, I see I used to be a fan of ramped mashes; started at 146, rested x 20 minutes, but ramped at 1F/1min. intervals up to 153F, where I rested x 70 minutes. Then direct fired to 170F, mashed out x 15 min. rest.

I used to like to muck about but I guess at some point I thought all my splitting hairs probably amounted to no real difference in the finished product, so with that (plus a love of true, English tradition) went to single infusion mashing. Maybe I'll try 149F in these strong bitters, maybe I'll go back to that ramping schedule, maybe I'll try higher mash temps for lower OG bitters. I prefer managing mash temp to the use of specialty malts (i.e., dextrinous malts). At any rate, thanks for encouraging opening my mind.
 

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Uumph. Now that everything else seemed to go well (gravities, malts, color, so bright I can read anything through cold bottles), I think I made the mistake that has been discussed above. Namely, overdid the hop additions and extracted too much bitterness and harshness. Be careful and make small adjustments only. Hops must be the most challenging factor in brewing for beginners. Difficult to estimate / calculate because of the many possibilities how to add hops and because of the effects of post boil conditions. Just need to get more experienced with this.
 
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