BE-256 dry Fermetis 'abbey'; has anyone used it , results?

[Dland]

I bought a few packs of BE-256 when getting into trying euro ale yeasts.

The BE 134 batches came out clear crisp and strong, but clove is right out in front, which is nice, but not a guzzler for sure.

Then the dreaded plaxtic kveik....you've all likely seen the posts. ....

Anyway, anyone ever actually used this yeast to make good beer? BE-256 that is...

Have temp control and cellar is around 65F right now.

 

[couchsending]

Supposedly this is the yeast De Ranke uses???

It attenuates really well, and is pretty clean actually. Supposedly lower esters than US-05. Floccs well too.

I’ve added it to a blend of yeasts but never used it on its own.

Supposedly you need to move it off the yeast quickly after fermentation to best maintain the profile it creates... not sure why?

It’s POF-

 

[Dland]

Anyone know the phenol profile? Already have plenty of clove beer on hand, I'd like to avoid making more of that right now.

 

[thehaze]

I've used it co-pitched with T-58. I like the combo, as it gets really dry ( 1.005-1.008 ), but the Belgian character is really supressed in these yeast. They do make easy drinking beer and quick. The yeast tends to help the flocculation of T-58, so that's a plus as well for me. I think a bit of banana ( which dissipates at some point ) and spice is what you get. Not very fruity, and the phenolic profile is subdued.

But it's high alc. tolerant and ferments quickly and agressively without any hiccups.

 

[TandemTails]

I used it in a belgian dark strong last year.

Took the beer from 1.090 -> 1.010. I pitched the yeast at 62'F and increased the temp of my ferm chamber one degree per day until it was 69'F. I let it free rise to 75'F at the end of fermentation to ensure it finished up.

I'm getting a lot of dark fruit and typical belgian dark strong flavors, most of which i'm attributing to the grain bill and candi syrup. I wouldn't say the yeast itself is super phenolic.

I'd use this yeast again.

 

[couchsending]

POF- means it doesn’t produce phenols... the data sheets that Fermentis provides are a little vague some times but can be helpful.

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SafAle-BE-256.pdf

 

[thehaze]

POF- means it doesn’t produce phenols... the data sheets that Fermentis provides are a little vague some times but can be helpful.

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SafAle-BE-256.pdf

I am unable to see where on that page says it is POF-. But it would be in line with my own experience. It's not really " belgiany ", but has some qualities about it I like for a dry yeast.

 

[mediant]

I am unable to see where on that page says it is POF-. But it would be in line with my own experience.

In case you want an official confirmation - it's mentioned here, page 38.

 

[couchsending]

It won’t say when a yeast is POF-... but they will always list when a strain is POF+

Be134
T-58
WB-06

 

[Miraculix]

I am unable to see where on that page says it is POF-. But it would be in line with my own experience. It's not really " belgiany ", but has some qualities about it I like for a dry yeast.

So what does it contribute then? Would it work in a hoppy pale without much yeast character?

 

[couchsending]

Craziest thing about Be256 is it’s not diastaticus. You usually don’t find 82% attenuation listed with a non diastaticus yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

Craziest thing about Be256 is it’s not diastaticus. You usually don’t find 82% attenuation listed with a non diastaticus yeast.

Yes, exactly that plus the good sedimentation qualities sparked my interest for it in regards to pale ales.

 

[TandemTails]

I do want to mention that my belgian dark strong took forever to bottle carb. I opened one after about a month sitting at 65'F and there was zero carb. I ended up agitating the bottles every few days for a week or so. After that they finally carbed up.

 

[Dland]

POF- means it doesn’t produce phenols... the data sheets that Fermentis provides are a little vague some times but can be helpful.

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SafAle-BE-256.pdf

I could have sworn your first post said POF+. but it was before 7AM Monday. {;

Good thing to know it is not diastaticus, always a little leery of the extra sanitation those require.

Anyway, thanks for the replies, I guess I'll give BE-256 a shot next time I brew. Am a little hesitant to try new yeasts after the kviek nonsense, even the BE-134 was a bit of a disappointment, in the fact I brewed 20 gallons of clove ale, even though it is good crisp beer.

Think I'll have any problems with my "standard" clear 1.060 wort?... or should I make it higher to go with this yeast.

 

[couchsending]

I still haven’t used it on it’s own but plan on it probably next week. If it is De Ranke’s yeast then a pale highly hopped dry beer is what it’s good for.

I’ll probably make something like XX Bitter with it.

From everything I can find that recipe and process is as follows:

100% Pils
Brewers Gold at 75 for 60 IBUs
Crap ton of Mittelfreuh a 2 minutes
- they use the equivalent of 8oz of whole leaf hops split between those two additions in 6 gallons
Pitch at 68
- not sure how long they leave it there then I think they let it free rise

After fermentation is done they cool to 60, crop the yeast (Fermentis says this is critical for this yeast) and leave at 60 for a month. Then bottle condition. No clue why they leave it at 60 for a month, doesn’t make much sense to me but that’s their process.

I believe the FG on that beer is rather low. 1.004 I’d bet, never degassed it.

 

[thehaze]

It attenuates really well, it ferments down quickly and does not stall or need any conditioning time in the fermenter. The flocculation is OK, not great, but it does tend to stick to the bottom, as long as the keg/bottle is not shook too hard. It's dry, but not overly so.

A simple recipe like the one couchsending posted would probably work. I used BE-256 three times: once alone in an amber-ish sort of affair. Decent, but lacked some hops and co-pitched with T-58 in two other beers: some Pilsner malt, 30 IBUs, spices added to boil. The OG the last two were 1.051 and 1.0542 respectively. The FG were 1.005 and 1.006. That's very high attenuation ( apparent 88-90% ), and for a dry yeast and especially one that is POF-, that's pretty great.

I'm thinking anything Belgian Dark Strong or Imperial Stout could be options to use the yeast.

mediant ---> I've checked the link and it's from 2019. And yes, it does list all yeast and whether they are POF- or + and diastaticus. Thank you.

 

[Velnerj]

I made a big Barley wine with this yeast. It was a beast. Created a huge krausen and didn't stall at all. The beer ended up at around 12% ABV. I wouldn't say it had "belgian" phenols but mine was really boozy. This had more to do with warm fermentation temperature. Took ages to bottle condition, at least 6 months before there was enough to be drinkable. I saved one bottle for nearly two years and that was amazing. Not boozy at all and heavy dark fruit and caramel.

I'd use it again but I'm not patient enough to wait two years for my homebrew.

 

[frankvw]

I've put this yeast through its paces a few times, and here's my personal opinion: it's not a bad yeast but it is a bit of a weird one, and definitely not an Abbey yeast by my standards.

It is POF- and therefore lacks the typical spicy phenols that are so characteristic (not to say vital) for the style. But what it lacks in phenols it makes up for in isoamyl acetate. Let me be plain: it is a 20-megaton banana bomb. Fermenting as cool as possible (2 degrees or so below the recommended range!) is vital to keep the banana from climbing out of the beer and physically assaulting you.

It does have a very high attenuation: if you have a properly fermentable wort (i.e. containing a certain amount of sugar as is traditional for high gravity Belgian wort) this yeast will happily take it down from 1.090 or so to 1.004 in a few days, and then drop like a brick. Flocculation and sedimentation/compaction are excellent and leave you with a clear beer. No fuss, no bother: whereas other (not to say proper) Belgian yeasts such as the WLP50x range will produce Krausen tick enough to pave your driveway with, BE-256 simply bubbles along quietly until the job is done.

One other thing that makes me conclude this is not a "real" Belgian abbey strain: it is far less prone to producing higher alcohols than WLP50x or BE-134. I've yet to get the "hot" alcohol out of this yeast than other Belgians.

So all in all, it's not a bad yeast and it does not produce bad beers... It's just not a Belgian yeast and they beers produced are just not Abbey beers. I'm not sure what it is but Belgian it isn't.

But then, in the past Fermentis tried to pass off S-33 as a Belgian yeast while in fact it's simply an Edme strain. So this is pretty much par for the course if you ask me.

 

[Miraculix]

I've put this yeast through its paces a few times, and here's my personal opinion: it's not a bad yeast but it is a bit of a weird one, and definitely not an Abbey yeast by my standards.

It is POF- and therefore lacks the typical spicy phenols that are so characteristic (not to say vital) for the style. But what it lacks in phenols it makes up for in isoamyl acetate. Let me be plain: it is a 20-megaton banana bomb. Fermenting as cool as possible (2 degrees or so below the recommended range!) is vital to keep the banana from climbing out of the beer and physically assaulting you.

It does have a very high attenuation: if you have a properly fermentable wort (i.e. containing a certain amount of sugar as is traditional for high gravity Belgian wort) this yeast will happily take it down from 1.090 or so to 1.004 in a few days, and then drop like a brick. Flocculation and sedimentation/compaction are excellent and leave you with a clear beer. No fuss, no bother: whereas other (not to say proper) Belgian yeasts such as the WLP50x range will produce Krausen tick enough to pave your driveway with, BE-256 simply bubbles along quietly until the job is done.

One other thing that makes me conclude this is not a "real" Belgian abbey strain: it is far less prone to producing higher alcohols than WLP50x or BE-134. I've yet to get the "hot" alcohol out of this yeast than other Belgians.

So all in all, it's not a bad yeast and it does not produce bad beers... It's just not a Belgian yeast and they beers produced are just not Abbey beers. I'm not sure what it is but Belgian it isn't.

But then, in the past Fermentis tried to pass off S-33 as a Belgian yeast while in fact it's simply an Edme strain. So this is pretty much par for the course if you ask me.

And selling wb06 as wheat beer yeast would be another example of them failing to label one of their own yeasts properly.

Thanks for the bananarama warning, not good for American pales than.

 

[frankvw]

And selling wb06 as wheat beer yeast would be another example of them failing to label one of their own yeasts properly.

In all fairness, WB-06 is closer to a "proper" Weizen yeast (being POF+ and producing the right flavors from the right wort at the right temperature) than BE-256 is to an abbey yeast. I knew several commercial microbrewers who use WB-06 for Weizen with good results.

Thanks for the bananarama warning, not good for American pales than.

Definitely not. I brewed a Tripel with it but it came out with just banana and very little else. I bottled it with some left over WLP504 sludge in hopes that at least some spicy phenols will be formed in the bottle (more hope than expectation, to be sure, but what the heck) and I'll give it lots of time to sort itself out. Who knows.

BE-134 also has its quirks, by the way. Ferments calls it a Saison yeast which is probably the best one can do with this yeast. It does have the right POF+ spicy notes for a Belgian and in that respect it is closer to an Abbey or Trappist yeast than BE-256 ever will be. But BE-134 tops out at 9% ABV (way too low for a proper Belgian yeast) and it simply will not form a proper sediment but sits at the bottom of both the fermenter and the bottle in a layer of loose flakes waiting to be stirred up as soon as you look at it skew. BE-134 is also very prone to creating "hot" alcohol aromas and should be started really, really cool (well below the low end of the recommend range) to keep the hot alcohols in check.

I'll say this for BE-256 and 134 though: they ferment all the way down to the bitter end (1.004 FG is common whereas WLP504 throws in the towel around 1.017 or so from the same wort) and they work quickly (typically less than a week to FG where WLP504 can easily need 2 weeks or more to get through the final two or three gravity points.

 

[couchsending]

The banana bomb comment is interesting... according to the Fermentis data sheet at 68* it produces less esters than US-05 and S04??

What has your pitch rate been for the beers you’ve used it on?

Could it be that the cell count is much lower for this yeast when dried so you need to pitch more weight in order to get the correct amount of yeast?

That’s the only thing I can think of when you say it’s a banana bomb.

 

[Dland]

I got nearly a clove bomb with BE-134, sure don't want a banana bomb with BE-256. I guess I could blend the two, haha.

Whatever the data sheets say, I get very clean tasting ale with US-05, fermented at 65-68F. Maybe I should stick with that, and my go to lager yeasts. Especially with my 'standard' wort profile.

If I use the 256, seems like I should make something heavier and stronger.

 

[Miraculix]

I got nearly a clove bomb with BE-134, sure don't want a banana bomb with BE-256. I guess I could blend the two, haha.

Whatever the data sheets say, I get very clean tasting ale with US-05, fermented at 65-68F. Maybe I should stick with that, and my go to lager yeasts. Especially with my 'standard' wort profile.

If I use the 256, seems like I should make something heavier and stronger.

If you feel like trying 134 again, I had it fermenting around 30C and above and got ZERO clove out of it. It was very clean. The clove seems to appear more and more the lwoer the temperature.

 

[Dland]

I do note the 134 beer is some of the clearest and crispest ale I've made. If I could have that without all the clove, I'd would. But have not had best results when running fermentations intentionally hot, especially when I do not have to.

 

[Miraculix]

I do note the 134 beer is some of the clearest and crispest ale I've made. If I could have that without all the clove, I'd would. But have not had best results when running fermentations intentionally hot, especially when I do not have to.

Then give it a try. It really depends on the yeast strain and this one can take it.

 

[frankvw]

The banana bomb comment is interesting... according to the Fermentis data sheet at 68* it produces less esters than US-05 and S04??

First off, the Fermentis data sheets seem to disagree with the bar graphs they publish in their more recent brochures. Second, they compare all their yeasts at the same temperature (20C), which means that one yeast may be in the middle of its temperature range while another may be at its high end or low end. Which illustrates how hard it is to compare yeasts that way. Lastly, I've brewed with BE-256 at 20C and the banana is absolutely overpowering.

What has your pitch rate been for the beers you’ve used it on?

The usual 0.75 - 1 million cells per milliliters of wort per degree Plato.

Could it be that the cell count is much lower for this yeast when dried so you need to pitch more weight in order to get the correct amount of yeast?

Lallemand/Danstar states that 1gram of their dry yeast will contain a minimum of 5 billion live cells, while Fermentis puts it at a minimum of 6 billion cells per gram. In practice, however, these yeasts tend to contain far more live cells than the specified minimum number, and independent cell counts have repeatedly shown these dry yeasts to contain anything between 8 and 18 billion live cells per gram, while more recent data even puts it at around 20 billion cells per gram, most likely as a result of yeast quality improvements in recent years. Current practice (and Mr. Malty) estimates the latter, i.e.20 billion cells per gram.

That’s the only thing I can think of when you say it’s a banana bomb.

There are many factors that influence ester production other than yeast genetics. Pitching rate, dissolved oxygen and fermentation temperatures all play a role. It's very hard to make a 1:1 comparison between two yeasts with all these variables in the mix.

 

[frankvw]

If you feel like trying 134 again, I had it fermenting around 30C and above and got ZERO clove out of it. It was very clean. The clove seems to appear more and more the lwoer the temperature.

It is my understanding that spicy phenol formation is a factor of yeast genetics and wort composition (spicy phenols are formed from precursors derived from malts and hops) and that fermentation temperature does not play a significant role. BUT... fermentation temperature does govern the production of higher alcohols and fruity esters, which means it governs how the phenols are perceived on the palate. Low levels of esters and higher alcohols means that there's nothing to balance out or mask the phenols. With higher levels of esters and higher alcohols the phenols are still there but now sit quietly in the background rather than running rampant at center stage.

 

[Miraculix]

It is my understanding that spicy phenol formation is a factor of yeast genetics and wort composition (spicy phenols are formed from precursors derived from malts and hops) and that fermentation temperature does not play a significant role. BUT... fermentation temperature does govern the production of higher alcohols and fruity esters, which means it governs how the phenols are perceived on the palate. Low levels of esters and higher alcohols means that there's nothing to balance out or mask the phenols. With higher levels of esters and higher alcohols the phenols are still there but now sit quietly in the background rather than running rampant at center stage.

I cannot point you to the source, but I read in multiple sources that phenols are usually promoted in the lower temperature range of saison yeasts. Esters in the upper, phenols in the lower.

My beer had no phenols inside that I was able to perceive, it was one of the cleanest beers I've ever made, although it had lots of wheat inside, providing the precursor for clove phenols.

Edit: clove phenol precursors are mainly found in wheat and corn, not in barley and hops.

 

[Dland]

Edit: clove phenol precursors are mainly found in wheat and corn, not in barley and hops.

Interesting, what about rye? 1st batch clove 134 was 12.5% rye malt, 9.5% wheat malt. 2nd batch was 12.5% rye, 10% flaked corn. But batch 1 is considerably more clovey than batch 2. Batch 1 was original pitch, batch 2 was wort on yeast cake.

Edit due to check of actual recipe in brew log as opposed to memory.

 

[frankvw]

I cannot point you to the source, but I read in multiple sources that phenols are usually promoted in the lower temperature range of saison yeasts. Esters in the upper, phenols in the lower. My beer had no phenols inside that I was able to perceive, it was one of the cleanest beers I've ever made, although it had lots of wheat inside, providing the precursor for clove phenols. Edit: clove phenol precursors are mainly found in wheat and corn, not in barley and hops.

You are correct about the clove phenol (4VG) precursors. But there are other spicy phenols as well which play an important role in Belgian styles (which BE-256 claims to produce). However these appear to be mainly a factor of wort and hop compounds as well as yeast genetics. There doesn't seem to be any indication that lower temperatures promote phenol formation. Lower temperatures allow the phenols to com through more clearly in the absence of esters and higher alcohols, though.

This paper (VanBeneden, University of Leuven, Belgium 2007) states in its abstract that:

Among the flavour-active volatile phenols in beer, most of them originate from the raw
materials used in the brewing process. Only some of them can be formed by yeast activity,
namely 4-vinylguaiacol (4VG) and 4-vinylphenol. The presence of these volatile phenolic
compounds is considered undesirable when present in excessive concentration in bottom-
fermented pilsner beers, hence the term “phenolic off-flavour”. It is attributed to beers with a
strong medicinal, clove-like aroma. Despite being historically catalogued as an off-flavour,
these compounds are known to be essential flavour contributors to the characteristic aroma of
Belgian white beers, German Weizen beers and Rauch beers. In recent years, volatile
phenolic flavour compounds have been increasingly encountered in Belgian specialty beers.
While some brewers wish for a clear phenolic note in (some of) their beers, others do not aim
for their, sometimes overwhelming, presence in the taste pallet of beer. Little is known of the
dynamics behind the release of their precursors (the hydroxycinnamic acids (HCA’s) ferulic
acid and p-coumaric acid) during brewing, the interactive role of native barley enzymes
underlying this release and the subsequent decarboxylation to the flavour-active compounds
during wort fermentation.

Further down it says that:

I.1.4. Formation of volatile phenols during wort fermentation and evolution during
beer ageing
Information about control mechanisms for the formation of volatile phenols during wort
fermentation is scarce. Kieniger et al. (1984) postulated that the fermentation temperature is
an important parameter and stressed that the selection of the yeast strain has a significant
influence on the development of phenols. Back et al. (2000) examined the formation of
volatile phenols during the production of Weizenbier. The type of fermentation vessel, its
shape and size had a considerable effect on the sensory qualities of Weizenbier. Beers from a
main fermentation in a tun or a horizontal fermentor had higher levels of 4VG than beers
from a vertical or cilindroconical tank. A raised bottle conditioning temperature or increased
duration of warm storage promoted the phenolic flavour impression. Formation of 4VG was
slightly less pronounced in fermentations of high original gravity. McMurrough et al. (1996)
found that there are appreciable temperature dependent losses of 4VG during the storage of
beer. 4VG is transformed into currently unidentified compounds.

And:

VI.3.4. Effect of temperature, pH, pitching rate, C-source, FA concentration and the
use of specialty malts on 4VG formation during laboratory-scale fermentations
[...]
With increasing fermentation temperatures, an increase in the 4VG concentration in wort was
observed. At 24 °C, the final 4VG concentration was almost twice that found at 14 °C.

It's a lengthy and rather technical paper but very informative, so if you have some time on your hands have a look at it.

 

[Miraculix]

You are correct about the clove phenol (4VG) precursors. But there are other spicy phenols as well which play an important role in Belgian styles (which BE-256 claims to produce). However these appear to be mainly a factor of wort and hop compounds as well as yeast genetics. There doesn't seem to be any indication that lower temperatures promote phenol formation. Lower temperatures allow the phenols to com through more clearly in the absence of esters and higher alcohols, though.

This paper (VanBeneden, University of Leuven, Belgium 2007) states in its abstract that:


Further down it says that:


And:


It's a lengthy and rather technical paper but very informative, so if you have some time on your hands have a look at it.

Thanks, I'll have a read when I find some time.

However in this specific case, @Ninoid and I both used this 134yeast under similar conditions and we both had zero clove when fermented high and a very clean beer in general, almost lager like. This is what it is.

@RPh_Guy and I were discussing peppery phenols somewhere else and the consensus seemed to be that those are also promoted at the lower temperature range, which was matching my experiences with belle saison which gave me zero pepper or clove when fermented above 30c (still not as remarkably clean as 134 though, lots of higher alcohols, wasn't a nice beer).

 

[frankvw]

Thanks, I'll have a read when I find some time.

However in this specific case, @Ninoid and I both used this 134yeast under similar conditions and we both had zero clove when fermented high and a very clean beer in general, almost lager like. This is what it is.

@RPh_Guy and I were discussing peppery phenols somewhere else and the consensus seemed to be that those are also promoted at the lower temperature range, which was matching my experiences with belle saison which gave me zero pepper or clove when fermented above 30c (still not as remarkably clean as 134 though, lots of higher alcohols, wasn't a nice beer).

I'll see what else I can find out. I know a good brewing consultant here; let me see if I can get hold of him to pick his brain. I'll report back here if I learn anything new!

 

[couchsending]

@frankvw when you say typical pitch rate are you counting yeast cells before pitching with a scope or are you just basing it off a set number of cells per gram.

I did just reread that Fermentis pamphlet they produced and I can see where they do say it produces a ton of Isoamylacetate. Looks like on the data sheet they may be just publishing the green apple ester levels. That is a great read for anyone although it seems like there are a few things that contradict themselves in there.

For anyone that cares:

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Brochure_Tips_and_Tricks_201810_BD-1.pdf

 

[frankvw]

@frankvw when you say typical pitch rate are you counting yeast cells before pitching with a scope or are you just basing it off a set number of cells per gram.

The latter. If it's good enough for Jamil Zainasheff it's good enough for me.

@frankvwI did just reread that Fermentis pamphlet they produced and I can see where they do say it produces a ton of Isoamylacetate. Looks like on the data sheet they may be just publishing the green apple ester levels. That is a great read for anyone although it seems like there are a few things that contradict themselves in there.

Current Fermentis documentation is better than what they published previously, but that's really the best that can be said about it. It used to be absolute rubbish: for years they misclassified S-23 and W-34/70 as S/Cerevisiae. Go figure. But in all fairness, they have made an effort to improve their documentation. Now it's only confusing and next to useless in most cases.

 

[frankvw]

@Miraculix: also have a look at this paper; it's interesting: Fig. 4 shows a small but visible correlation between 4VP formation and fermentation temperatures. VanBeneden (cited above) already concluded that "the high concentrations often encountered in blond and dark specialty beers must originate from the enzymatic decarboxylation of HCA’s by Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast strains during wort fermentation. [...] During alcohol fermentation, it was clearly shown that the majority of 4VG is formed during the second half of the fermentation process when all fermentable sugars were consumed. This suggests that the Pad1 enzyme might be involved in the course of events triggered upon the stress presented by nutrient depletion." However, VanBeneden does not mention any effects of fermentation temperatures.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix: also have a look at this paper; it's interesting: Fig. 4 shows a small but visible correlation between 4VP formation and fermentation temperatures. VanBeneden (cited above) already concluded that "the high concentrations often encountered in blond and dark specialty beers must originate from the enzymatic decarboxylation of HCA’s by Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast strains during wort fermentation. [...] During alcohol fermentation, it was clearly shown that the majority of 4VG is formed during the second half of the fermentation process when all fermentable sugars were consumed. This suggests that the Pad1 enzyme might be involved in the course of events triggered upon the stress presented by nutrient depletion." However, VanBeneden does not mention any effects of fermentation temperatures.

I think it is safe to say that we best judge this beast by experience. Those rules are nice but there is always the odd one sticking out. For example, ester production usually is enhanced at higher temperatures but us05 throws more esters at lower temperatures (peach). Ninoids and my 134 batches, fermented above 30c didn't show even a hint of clove while all the people using it within the normal range experience clove or even clove bomb like beers.

I guess at the end there are general trends, like more esters at higher temperatures, but how the specific strain behaves might be a completely different thing.

 

[frankvw]

@Miraculix: also have a look at this paper; it's interesting:

If you feel like trying 134 again, I had it fermenting around 30C and above and got ZERO clove out of it. It was very clean. The clove seems to appear more and more the lwoer the temperature.

Could that be a factor of the grains and/or grain bill used? I have never brewed with American malts but it is my gut feeling (admitting that that's all it is!) that European Pilsener malt and local (South African) pale 2-row produces more precursors to 4VG and 4VP than US malts. But I have nothing to back that up.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix: also have a look at this paper; it's interesting:

Could that be a factor of the grains and/or grain bill used? I have never brewed with American malts but it is my gut feeling (admitting that that's all it is!) that European Pilsener malt and local (South African) pale 2-row produces more precursors to 4VG and 4VP than US malts. But I have nothing to back that up.

I'm living in the UK, this was brewed with Marris Otter pale malt and spelt flour.

 

[Dland]

FWIW, cloven 134 batch 1 was 10# Viking Euro pils, 5.5 Marris Otter, 2.5 malted rye, 1.5 malted white wheat, .5 Weyerman acid malt.

Batch 2 134 less cloven was 10# Viking pils, 5 Irish Stout malt, 2.5 malted rye, 2 flaked corn.

As with the plastic kviek failure, wort very clean and free from hot break or hops solids, if extra nutrition is a factor. Current hot side procedure mostly for nice clean lagers and lighter ales. Possibly a factor in phenol production?

I wonder if plastic taste in kviek is a phenol, ester or what? but I digress....

 

[RPh_Guy]

Most kveik cultures are not-phenolic. Which one are you talking about?