No boil PM?

I usually do extract & PMs & noticed that the flavour of my steeping grains is diminished during the boil. I've been experimenting with late extract additions & it seems that if I get more malt flavour from extract by adding some late, it makes sense to do the same with the liquor from my steeping grains.

Now if I'm steeping grain @ 155*F. for 30-45 mins, according to this:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pasteurization-methods-temperatures-d_1642.html
the resulting liquor should be pasteurized in the process; no need to boil, except for any needed volume reduction. So if proper hop utilization is reached with the LME/DME in the boil, any reason I couldn't just reserve my steeping liquor & add it @ flameout?

In theory, this should give me even more malty goodness & a truer flavour from the grain without any lapses in sanitation or hop utilization.
Is this also included in the "late extract additions" practice? Is it a fairly common practice amoungst extract & PM brewers? Your thoughts?
Regards, GF.

I don't think simply steeping the grains will kill the lactobacillis that is on the grains, but I could be wrong. The reason for boiling wort is to kill any nasties (grain is covered with lacto bacteria), get a hot break to coagulate proteins, and to boil off any volatiles (like DMS precursors). I think at least a short boil would be required for those three reasons.

I'd want to bring the "tea" to a boil, even if it's for a short time, for a protien break.
JMO
Bull

That's what I always thought too, but after reading a little on pasteurization temps, it SEEMS that the steep temp/mash temp should be enough to acheive pasteurization IF the time at those temps is long enough.

For example:

Originally published in The New York Times on January 1, 1886

"... But Pasteur has introduced an additional safeguard, even more sure than the lower temperature fermentation. He has taught the brewers to bottle the beer when fermentation is approximately complete, and then to expose the bottles for a short time to a temperature ranging between 122˚ and 131˚ Fahrenheit. By this management all extraneous germs of undesirable ferments are killed, and the beer consequently remains sound for long periods of time. This is essentially the practice which is now pursued upon a very large scale, and which is familiarly known as the Pasteurization of beer."

I know we've come a long way since then, but my previous link:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pasteurization-methods-temperatures-d_1642.html
While for milk, is telling me that 145*F for 30 mins will achieve vat pasteurization, with a 5*F increase for added fat content, sweeteners or concentration (condensed) products.

So according to the above info, a simple 30 min steep/mash @ 155*F SHOULD effectively pasteurize the liquor/wort. I'm not trying to debate, I just want the ideas/thoughts of those with far more knowledge/experience than I have on the subject.
Regards, GF.

bullinachinashop said:

I'd want to bring the "tea" to a boil, even if it's for a short time, for a protien break.
JMO
Bull

Click to expand...

How long would you boil to achieve the protein break?
Regards, GF.

Isnt the whole reason that you can add malt extract late is because it has already been boiled by the manufacturer. I think your steeping liquid needs to be boiled for more reasons than to pastuerize. Also OP you use the term partial mash and steep, but they are two different things. You can get sugars out of steeping grains, but i would think that base grains need to be actually mashed. Just steeping them is not giving them time to go through a protein break and they wont be able to be fermented. Am i off on this?

Plus the article you're referencing is all about pasteurizing FINISHED beer so it has a longer shelf life.
I'd bet a lot of money that the beer in the article was still boiled with hops for about an hour before yeast was pitched.

Trust me, grain contains lactobacillis. If you don't sufficiently kill it with a boil, your primary will very likely get infected.

Plus those of us doing full boil, all grain batches don't lose our maltiness. I think you should look elsewhere to make improvements on your brew.

What about adding it at the last 5-10 mins? How long does the boil need to be to achieve a hot break?
I'm curious about whether or not steeping then boiling for an hour kills some of the steeped grain flavors. Is that the case?

I would think if there truly wasn't a need to boil, by now, with as many home brewers, research, and money that is behind the hobby, it would be a more standard practice--but its not. I'd say stick to boiling. There is more to it than just pasteurization. Still, the wonderful thing about this is that its a hobby and your own beer. If you achieve good results from doing what you say and that works for you, then good for you, but personally, I will stick to boiling.

I may be off a little but I am thinking you are not losing maltiness/flavor from your steeping grains during the boil, if that were the case would you not lose the same flavor from your extract?

If you want more flavor then I would think you want to add more volume/variety grains in the steep. Cutting back on the boil is asking for more problems later on in my opinion!

Just my thoughts, good luck!

I'm certainly all for not taking chances that may ruin my beer.
But I'm also certainly all for getting the most out of my ingredients, though not at the potential expense of my batch. Does boiling the steeped wort kill any of the flavor or not? Is it minimal and not worth the concern?
If it does subdue the flavor would a 5-10 minute boil be enough to achieve a hot break as well as kill any undesirables?
If there is something to be gained without risk to my beer I'm all for it.

Extract is boiled and condensed wort, you dont have to boil it becasue it already was boiled. Specialty grains can be utilized with just a steep, and base grains need a mash. I agree with Fennis that if you didnt need to boil there would be ways out there. Why do all grain brewers need to boil? Because their wort has to go through changes that only happen by boiling.

If you want more maltiness change what you are steeping and what extracts you use. Dont use light and pils malts extracts, steep with high lovibond crystals, special malts, or aromatics. Try doing a partial mash of base malts with your specialty grains, instead of just steeping.

Feel free to try just pouring the steeping liquid in but who knows what you are going to get.

I was curious about the honey taste of honey malt. From what I read it seemed that small portions were in order. I used 1/2 lb in a 3 1/2 lb wheat batch of 4.8% ABV and didn't get much more than a vague hint of honey.
I'm revising the recipe and will try a pound next go around, though, from what I (mis)understood that may be too much. Others hear have suggested upping the honey malt so I'm guessing I misunderstood what I read.

gratus fermentatio said:

How long would you boil to achieve the protein break?
Regards, GF.

Click to expand...

I get good break within the first 5 min of the boil.