90 or 60 min boil and why???

I read a comment on another thread that Pilsen malt should be boiled for 90 min instead of 60. As I just did a brew using Pilsen that I boiled for 60 min I am wondering why boil Pilsen longer than other malts I have used? It is still fermenting so I can't speak to the results yet.

Are there other malts that should be boiled 90 instead of 60?

The theory behind 90 min boil for pilsner malts is that they tend to be more liable to produce the canned-corn flavors associated with DMS, and the longer boil tends to get rid of that. Yooper recently posted that she's known many people to ignore the 90 min rule with no I'll effects, so my guess is you'll be ok. I haven't read about any other grains needing 90 mins, but I'm still a bit n00b.

If you did a good vigorous boil you should be fine, if not, your beer may taste like creamed corn. yum


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I do a 90min boil on all my beers, that ensures I get a nice solid hot-break and a rolling boil before I typically need to add any hops. As mentioned above it also helps to drive off DMS precursors so you don't get something that tastes like Rolling Rock.

Bottom line is: Do whatever you're comfortable with, if you run in to an issue then tweak your process to make better beer. I like my 90min boils, it gives me a little more time to have a beer and make something on the grill to eat.

Calichusetts said:

hops and boiling

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Interesting read. Thanks!

Okay, thanks, must avoid creamed corn. On the one hand, I didn't get as vigerous a boil as I normally do because I brewed in the kitchen this time. It was cold out. On the other hand, I never start the clock until after I get past the point that it wants to boil over. 6.5 gallons of wort makes a heck of a mess on the stove top. So not quite as hot a burner as usual, but technically boiled for a bit longer than an hour.

I guess I'll find out in a few days.

I will now follow the link above for more reading. Thanks for the info!

Yea, 90min boil gets a bit more iso-alpha acids which bitter the beer. Also with pilsner malt it's a DMS issue. I just boil for 30min and then add hops. Actually with pilsner malt, I get a huge hot break when I boil for this long. For some reason, less so for others.

90 minutes only gets a very minor increase in IBUs compared to 60 mins, so if that's the only reason I'd think it would largely be more economical to do 60 mins with slightly more hops (as opposed using the propane or electricity).

The other common reason for increased boil times is mash efficiency. By increasing boil time you are increasing your boil off, so you need more wort in the kettle. More wort means you need to sparge more, which if you have not reduced your runnings to below 1.010 means you can get a little bit more extraction from your grains.

I use .62 gallons more for a 90min boil vs a 60min boil. I'd have to imagine the efficiency bump isn't huge, but another factor nonetheless.

wildwest450 said:

If you did a good vigorous boil you should be fine, if not, your beer may taste like creamed corn. yum

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DMS boils off at 99° F. There's no reason to do a vigorous boil to get rid of DMS. Do a vigorous boil to isomerize the alpha acids from the hops, sure, but DMS is not a concern.

LandoLincoln said:

DMS boils off at 99° F. There's no reason to do a vigorous boil to get rid of DMS. Do a vigorous boil to isomerize the alpha acids from the hops, sure, but DMS is not a concern.

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That isn't my understanding- my understanding is that the SMM (precursor to DMS) is still present, and DMS is formed as long as the wort is still hot, even after boiling. It's safe to say that DMS won't be formed below 99 degrees, certainly, but it's the vaporization at boiling that removes it.

In fact, from braukaiser.com's site (about the dangers of leaving the beer sit too long before chilling): Since DMS is still formed as long as the wort is hot and its precursor (SMM) is present such DMS formation happens while the wort is resting in the whirlpool. Unlike during the boil, this DMS is not driven off and remains in the beer. This is especially a concern for beers made from very lightly kilned malts (Pilsner for example) which contain higher levels of SMM than darker kilned malts (Munich for example). If you are using a counterflow chiller to chill your wort and you are experiencing a DMS off-flavor in your beer, you may want to boils for longer or use an immersion chiller.

Yooper said:

That isn't my understanding- my understanding is that the SMM (precursor to DMS) is still present, and DMS is formed as long as the wort is still hot, even after boiling. It's safe to say that DMS won't be formed below 99 degrees, certainly, but it's the vaporization at boiling that removes it.

In fact, from braukaiser.com's site (about the dangers of leaving the beer sit too long before chilling): Since DMS is still formed as long as the wort is hot and its precursor (SMM) is present such DMS formation happens while the wort is resting in the whirlpool. Unlike during the boil, this DMS is not driven off and remains in the beer. This is especially a concern for beers made from very lightly kilned malts (Pilsner for example) which contain higher levels of SMM than darker kilned malts (Munich for example). If you are using a counterflow chiller to chill your wort and you are experiencing a DMS off-flavor in your beer, you may want to boils for longer or use an immersion chiller.

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I don't know about SMM, but I've read on a number of sites about the boiling point of dimethyl sulfide, and they all say that the boiling point for DMS is around 99°F / 37°C.

Here's one:

LandoLincoln said:

I don't know about SMM, but I've read on a number of sites about the boiling point of dimethyl sulfide, and they all say that the boiling point for DMS is around 99°F / 37°C.

Here's one:

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But the SMM precursors (that cause the DMS) don't "boil off" until the wort is vaporizing (boiling). The wort (and hence the volatiles) isn't boiling at 99 degrees.

Yooper said:

But the SMM precursors (that cause the DMS) don't "boil off" until the wort is vaporizing (boiling). The wort (and hence the volatiles) isn't boiling at 99 degrees.

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It doesn't make a lot of sense. So...SMM causes DMS. Once the wort gets boiling, the SMM creates DMS. DMS boils off at 99°F. The DMS would immediately get boiled off as it was created.

Something's not adding up.

Every brewing expert I've read or listened too has confirmed what I've read on the Homebrew Wiki:
The level of SMM in malt is responsible for the DMS level in wort. During mashing the SMM, DMS and very soluble DMSO are brought into solution. No SMM is hydrolized to DMS at this time.
Kettle boiling hydrolizes SMM to DMS which is removed during evaporation. The half life or time needed to remove half of the DMS is 40 minutes so that three-fourths is removed in 90 minutes. Narssis recommends a 100 minute boil to reduce the level of SMM and DMS to acceptable levels in most beers.
The level of DMSO does not change during the kettle boil. A small amount of DMS, 0.4 ppb, may be contributed by hops, especially if added in large amounts late in the boil. As long as the wort is hot SMM will be converted to DMS. It is important to convert SMM to DMS in the kettle so that build up during the hot wort stand is minimized.

What I get from this is even though DMS may boil off at 98F it doesn't happen immediately. This makes sense if you compare it to water; H2O boils at 212F but it doesn't all instantly vaporize as soon as it starts boiling, it takes some time to completely evaporate. I believe the same is true with SMM/DMS. That is why we boil for 90-100 minutes when using pilsner malts or other low kilned malts

The boiling point for DMS may be 99 F, but if it's in a solution (wort) that is not boiling, it's just staying in solution. You need a rolling boil so that the wort turns over on itself from the bubbling & evaporates off the DMS. I think I've heard that 1/2 boils off in 60 minutes, so about 3/4 would boil off in 90 minutes, which is enough that it shouldn't be detectable in the finished beer. A 100 minute boil is your best option when using pilsner malt, but you won't be able to tell the difference from 90 & 100 unless you have an extremely refined & sensitive palette.

Also, another reason to do a 90 minute boil is to get some wort caramelization / melanoidin formation which will enhance your malt flavor.

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Boiling to reduce DMS is not just misinformation. I'm pretty new but discovered that rolling boil is needed. My first two AGs were lost because I figured that sitting right close to boiling was prob the same as boiling. First batch smelled of corn on a simple house blond ale recipe. Second boil was with one 2k watt element in 6 gal and it also wasnt rolling. Dumped it also. I have read enough in here that I just always trust Yooper.

Wow. Pretty detailed responses for what I thought was going to be a simple question. Some of this is over my head (SMM, DMS). I HAVE SOME MORE READING AND LEARNING TO DO!
Until then, I think I will just start using a 90 min boil. How much will the longer boil affect the color of the finished beer, or is that not really a consideration?

The color between a 90 minute boil and a 60 minute boil is insignificant- so don't worry!

I just have one thing to say- I said the same thing (wort not boiling off volatiles at 99 degrees) as the others, but they made me look dumb! sorry I simplified it so much, but really that's what it boils down to. (get it- "boils down to"? never mind).

CTownBrewer said:

The boiling point for DMS may be 99 F, but if it's in a solution (wort) that is not boiling, it's just staying in solution.

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I really don't know about that one. That does not seem to make a lot of sense. DMS is a liquid, and it gets boiled off at 99°F. If it happens to be mixed with a liquid (water) that doesn't boil at 99°F, I don't think that the DMS is going to wait until the water boils before it boils.

And furthermore, I question this whole "rolling boil" business. There is no temperature difference between a mildly boiling wort and a rolling boiling wort. Water goes from liquid to gas state at 212°F. Raise the heat on 212°F water and you are not going to get 214° water - you're simply going to get 212° water that's converting to gas faster than before.

Unless the alpha acids aren't effectively isomerized just by temperature alone, but the acids needs the turbulation of a rolling boil in addition to 212°F water...but I've never read that anywhere.

bigdongsr94 said:

Boiling to reduce DMS is not just misinformation. I'm pretty new but discovered that rolling boil is needed. My first two AGs were lost because I figured that sitting right close to boiling was prob the same as boiling. First batch smelled of corn on a simple house blond ale recipe. Second boil was with one 2k watt element in 6 gal and it also wasnt rolling. Dumped it also. I have read enough in here that I just always trust Yooper.

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I'm not questioning Yooper, I'm questioning this whole business. It's just not adding up to my liking.

LandoLincoln said:

I really don't know about that one. That does not seem to make a lot of sense. DMS is a liquid, and it gets boiled off at 99°F. If it happens to be mixed with a liquid (water) that doesn't boil at 99°F, I don't think that the DMS is going to wait until the water boils before it boils.

And furthermore, I question this whole "rolling boil" business. There is no temperature difference between a mildly boiling wort and a rolling boiling wort. Water goes from liquid to gas state at 212°F. Raise the heat on 212°F water and you are not going to get 214° water - you're simply going to get 212° water that's converting to gas faster than before.

Unless the alpha acids aren't effectively isomerized just by temperature alone, but the acids needs the turbulation of a rolling boil in addition to 212°F water...but I've never read that anywhere.

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I don't know how to say this differently, but your assumptions are incorrect. It's not like DMS is soluble until 99 degrees, and then boils away all by itself. I don't know how to explain it differently. In order for the volatiles to vaporize, they must be boiling and will go away as steam. In order for that to happen, the wort must be boiling. The SMM precursors will continue to produce DMS when the boiling stops, until the wort is under 140 degrees. That's one reason for quick chilling with pilsner malt, also.

Please read: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS Our wiki can explain it better than I can, and we've dragged this conversation off topic far enough. Please start another thread (in the Brew Science forum) if you want to further discuss DMS boiling away all by itself.

You're correct that a mildly boiling wort and a rocking boilling wort are at the same temperature. But a harder boiling wort encourages a greater hot break (proteins), as well as hops isomerization. Some people at higher elevations may hit that at 207, while I do it at 210 where I live. Temperature doesn't matter, but a rolling boil has more turbulance and does increase the amount of hot break you get.

LandoLincoln said:

And furthermore, I question this whole "rolling boil" business. There is no temperature difference between a mildly boiling wort and a rolling boiling wort. Water goes from liquid to gas state at 212°F. Raise the heat on 212°F water and you are not going to get 214° water - you're simply going to get 212° water that's converting to gas faster than before.

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Exactly, everything happens faster during a rolling boil. You don't vaporize all the DMS or SMM instantly at 99F, it starts at that temp. As you raise the temp you increase the reactions (chemical and physical). Not to mention the convection currents that happen in a rolling boil that physically agitate everything.

I guess you could always test this out if you'd like. Make a couple of 1-2 gallon batches with Pilsner Malt as the base malt. Boil one for an hour, and just hold the other at 175-180F or so. Add your hops as normal, (they still isomerize at above 165-170F) you'll get a lower level of bitterness and likely a popcorn flavor in the beer that wasn't boiled.

I totally agree with questioning things on the Internet. At the same time, I don't care what temp DMS boils. My two DMS failures were either right at or actually boiling. Both for 60 minutes. Neither were DMS prone as light ales are typically fine. My boil was not intense enough. My chilling method can also be called into question but I chill very quickly by putting pot in sink with ice and dunking in my chiller coil.
My experience with help on this site is a lot of times people try to make it seem more complicated than it is. Going AG was easy and I do things a lot easier than some suggest. Not boiling is not a corner to cut. Not saying your trying. But to assume that DMS is gone after 100 is a false assumption.

If you want to get some great information on DMS, listen to Jamil Z & John Palmer's Brew Strong podcast on it. It's free on iTunes. They break it down scientifically from all grain to extract applications.

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I thought that DMS and its precursur SMM were more of an issue when doing lagers with pilsner malt, VS ales. I know that either way that the light malts tend to be more worrysome, but that with alse 60mins was sufficient to drive them of enough to be below detectable levels? Not sure why I was thining there is difference between ales and lagers in this case, but I wouldn't be upset if someone would tell me other wise

crackhead7 said:

I thought that DMS and its precursur SMM were more of an issue when doing lagers with pilsner malt, VS ales. I know that either way that the light malts tend to be more worrysome, but that with alse 60mins was sufficient to drive them of enough to be below detectable levels? Not sure why I was thining there is difference between ales and lagers in this case, but I wouldn't be upset if someone would tell me other wise

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It's true that with lagers it tends to be more of an issue- partially because lagers tend to use pilsner or lighter kilned malts more than ales (you don't tend to get much DMS in maris otter, for example). But also because DMSO (another DMS precursor) can convert to DMS during fermentation, in a cool temperature fermentation with certain lager yeast.

But in general, anytime you use a lighter malt (like pilsner malt), the 90 minute boil is recommended by experts to reduce the possibility of excess DMS in the finished beer, ale or lager.

Doing a Diacetyl Rest with a Lager will generally help and get the yeast more active to consume DMS/Diacetyl & other undesirables.

I have only done one lager and that was an extract kit and a huge flop. I have been putting off any more until i get a designated fermentation fridge instead of using my keezer. I'm glad the the OP asked this question because i tend to like lighter /less roasty beers and will have to consider that when making really light ales in the future.

CTownBrewer said:

If you want to get some great information on DMS, listen to Jamil Z & John Palmer's Brew Strong podcast on it. It's free on iTunes. They break it down scientifically from all grain to extract applications.

Sent from my iPhone using HB Talk

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Also on the "hotside aeration show" Dr Bamforth mentions that one brewery injects air into the boil to help strip off DMS. Or at least that's my recollection.

+1 on jamil show. Listening now. They just said that half life of DMS is 36 minutes at 100 C. Half life at 96 C doubled. So it makes a huge difference. I have an addition question. If I am paranoid since I already failed two ales with DMS, can I also increase boil to 90 min or say 75? When do I add my 60 min hop? Right at boil or wait until 60 left?

bigdongsr94 said:

+1 on jamil show. Listening now. They just said that half life of DMS is 36 minutes at 100 C. Half life at 96 C doubled. So it makes a huge difference. I have an addition question. If I am paranoid since I already failed two ales with DMS, can I also increase boil to 90 min or say 75? When do I add my 60 min hop? Right at boil or wait until 60 left?

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What grains are you using for your ales? You shouldn't need anything more than 60 minutes unless your using pilsner malt, which really isn't for Ales. I do a 90 minute anyway, but for other reasons.

As far as when to add your hops, you do it as to whatever you put into your software. I've been playing around with no early hop additions. I've been starting at 30 minutes. I can still get the same bitterness but I just use more hops. I believe that it's called "hops bursting" if you want to do a search.

It's actually just the centennial blonde posted in the forum. It is not a DMS prone beer. I am going make it tomorrow. It's not a matter of boiling longer I was just wondering. I just need a better boil then I have had previously.

If you want your recipe parameters (IBUs) to stay the same, just keep the hop additions the same. Boil the first 30 minutes, then add your 60 minute hop addition. The only thing that should change is your mash/sparge water amount to compensate for the extra boil off.

If you aren't using any pilsner or other extremely light malt, you should be fine with a 60 minute boil. I know it's better to be safe than sorry though if you still want to go with 90 minutes.

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yinzer2 said:

You shouldn't need anything more than 60 minutes unless your using pilsner malt, which really isn't for Ales.

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(bold = mine)

Would our Belgian friends agree with you on that?

Just nit-picking, though. In general I think you're on point with this advice!

yinzer2 said:

What grains are you using for your ales? You shouldn't need anything more than 60 minutes unless your using pilsner malt, which really isn't for Ales. I do a 90 minute anyway, but for other reasons.

As far as when to add your hops, you do it as to whatever you put into your software. I've been playing around with no early hop additions. I've been starting at 30 minutes. I can still get the same bitterness but I just use more hops. I believe that it's called "hops bursting" if you want to do a search.

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not to hijack the thread but for what reasons do you do 90 mins?

crackhead7 said:

not to hijack the thread but for what reasons do you do 90 mins?

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Read through the thread, it'll give you a good idea of why to boil for 90mins.

I did read the thread, the ideas stated were DMS reduction, protien coagulation, increase in IBUs, and minor bump in efficency. I really, just wanted to know what specific reasons that yinzer2 has decided to do 90 min boils, since yinzer2 didn't elaborate.