I just bought a 50lb bag of great western malting two-row for $35 (the same base malt most western US craft breweries use). I was curious as to how much money I could save and I was pretty amazed at how cheap it could be to brew your own. At $35 for 50lbs of grain it comes out to $.70 a pound. I figured for an average beer such as a pale ale I would use about 10lbs base malt for a 5 gallon batch which comes to $7. Then I would use a couple pounds of a specialty malt at $1.50 a pound from the LHBS so thats another $3. I would use a high alpha hop like Magnum as the main bittering hop and then some of another hop like cascade for flavor toward the end of the boil. I figure an ounce and a half ought to do it unless you are making an IPA so that is about another $3. If you brew regularly enough you can reuse yeast by bottling and brewing on the same day and putting the wort on top of the yeast cake from the previous brew so I won't include a yeast cost (even though you will want to get new yeast every 6 or 7 batches or so), i'm also not factoring in water cost. So basically the total ingredients cost of this basic pale ale is $13. I usually get about 50 bottles of beer from a 5 gallon batch so thats 26 cents a beer or $1.56 a 6-pack. That is quite a bit cheaper than the average of $7-$10 a 6-pack at the local super market. Of course it wouldn't be any fun to just brew the same beer all the time and some recipes will require more specialty malts and ingredients but overall if you buy your base malt in bulk you will probably save at least 50% off the price of commercial beer if not more.
Homebrew can save you lots of money
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But you are not figuring in the cost of your labor. How much an hour are you worth? :rockin:
Special Hops
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gestyr said:
Most of us do this a hobby. I don't consider it labor. Do you figure in cost of labor when you do your other hobbies?
I don't.
jgln
Well-Known Member
I think it is a legit point seeing the point was saving money and the op put a lot of effort into his reasoning/figures. Say you worked a job instead for the time spent brewing, would the $$ made working outweigh the cost of the homemade beer? For me it would, cheaper to work and buy beer than to brew it. But I understand your point as well, it is a hobby and time enjoyed.
It certainly saves a lot of money in the UK. I can get ingredients to clone Black Sheep for under £10, whereas buying the same amount of the real beer would set me back somewhere around £50-70. Add in a basic equipment pack for £25 and some stockpots for around £25 and I'm breaking even on my first batch. Even extract is far cheaper than buying good beer.
Silly government, making alcohol more expensive. Still, at least we never tried to ban it altogether
Silly government, making alcohol more expensive. Still, at least we never tried to ban it altogether
jd3
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I think it is a legit point seeing the point was saving money and the op put a lot of effort into his reasoning/figures. Say you worked a job instead for the time spent brewing, would the $$ made working outweigh the cost of the homemade beer? For me it would, cheaper to work and buy beer than to brew it. But I understand your point as well, it is a hobby and time enjoyed.
But say instead of brewing, you watched a football game or circle jerked with the guys next door.... Would you consider that a "cost"? If the "time is money" thought process goes to any time you are not working, then tons of things cost us money and we get much less in return.
I don't think we save a dime homebrewing... equipment, electricity, gas, fuel, water, chemicals, yeast, yada, yada, yada.
But I don't think it COSTS me anything for my "labor". I love doing this, and as such I do not equate this to "work" time.
Northcalais40
Well-Known Member
I don't even have time to brew, I spend all my time counting all the money I've saved.
I average $40-$50 per ten gallon batch. I don't buy bulk though.
It's not about saving money to me. Though it could be cheap if you made it that way.
If you really want to save drink crappy beer by the suitcase.
I average $40-$50 per ten gallon batch. I don't buy bulk though.
It's not about saving money to me. Though it could be cheap if you made it that way.
If you really want to save drink crappy beer by the suitcase.
You have left out fuel cost for your burners, and the cost of your sanitizer. I don't get grain that cheap where I live but I use a bit less than your example and my hops are about $1.00/oz. Altogether my beers average $.30-.35 per beer. Very reasonable. I'm aware of the money I spend on equipment but were it not for brewing I would have some other hobby soaking up funds so I don't count equipment costs. Fun stuff.
I don't consider it labor labor when you are doing it for fun as a hobby.
MazdaMatt
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When I'm half drunk and my "labour" is sitting beside a boiling pot? Not a whole hell of a lot.
JetSmooth
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Hex
Well-Known Member
Here's how I figured it, for a 20 gallon run, $500 of great beer for under $60 and 20 hours do-not-disturb-me-time in 70 days. (125 bombers of beer valued at $4 per bottle.)
I broke even on equipment in the first year.
Not paying tax for alcohol? Priceless.
My beer tastes better to me than any I can buy.
I broke even on equipment in the first year.
Not paying tax for alcohol? Priceless.
My beer tastes better to me than any I can buy.
Yeah I save money on the ingredients, but the 4 fermentors, bottling bucket, pot, kegs, taps, freezer, temperature controller, etc. I will most likely break even never. I like to build/upgrade things too much.
MazdaMatt
Well-Known Member
Buy used, sell used at zero loss. Equipment has no cost.
Seven
Well-Known Member
I haven't done the math to figure out if home brewing is cheaper than buying commercial beer but I feel it has many other non-monetary benefits:
The above items make it "worth it" to me even if I'm not saving a ton of money by home brewing.
- It's a fun hobby
- You can tweak recipes and customize beers to your liking
- Home brew tastes better (it's fresher)
- You learn a new skill (home brewing)
- You can brew specialty or seasonal beers anytime you want instead of waiting for the stores to have them available
- Pride in saying "I made this beer"
- etc.
The above items make it "worth it" to me even if I'm not saving a ton of money by home brewing.
HHP
Well-Known Member
Billybob7 said:Silly government, making alcohol more expensive. Still, at least we never tried to ban it altogether
Touche.
Man not this thread again. Isn't there 20 or so already?
@MAzdaMatt
Exactly. Most of the equipment I bought, although new, was bought with the $$ that I got for selling stuff of craigslist. The other stuff, Ie, used kegerator was an xmas gift to myself
I think my equipment to brew cost like $250, all grain, and can do 10gal batches. I broke even on that in no time. I buy in bulk as well. I brew on my days off work, and don't have anything else to do to get paid for, so I brew, which is primarily sitting around and drinking.
Exactly. WTF are you people buying so that you're not breaking even? I own a kegging system, johnson digital controller, 10 g igloo with false bottom, chest freezer, stir plate, glass system with thermowell, and I am way ahead money wise. Even if my time was worth 10 an hour (good pay for "work" that is mostly hanging out with friends) I'd still be ahead. I can't think of any equipment I really need to make better beer. Also, most of this stuff will last me years, and I'm only 23.
I just dropped 100 bucks on the necessary equipment and ingredients to make a westy 12 clone. Guess what? As soon as it's done I got all my money back, and more. Brew one belgian strong ale or imperial something and you've got at least 100 bucks worth of retail beer. 5 gallons of Chimay would cost 250 bucks, but you can make it for 30.
I can understand people who add the equipment costs in (even though I don't), but I totally disagree with adding in labor costs.
First off, there's no way to quantify it. How much is your labor worth? It's not equivelent to your regular job's salary, because you are not doing your regular job when you brew. Unless you've been a professional brewer, no one knows their own worth as a brewer, so there's no value to the labor you are performing.
Secondly, unless your job allows you to brew on job time, you are using personal time to brew, so there is absolutely no connection to your homebrewing and making money. Unless you get paid 24 hours-a-day to run around in circles, brewing is not stopping anyone from making money that would neccesitate it being factored in as a labor cost.
First off, there's no way to quantify it. How much is your labor worth? It's not equivelent to your regular job's salary, because you are not doing your regular job when you brew. Unless you've been a professional brewer, no one knows their own worth as a brewer, so there's no value to the labor you are performing.
Secondly, unless your job allows you to brew on job time, you are using personal time to brew, so there is absolutely no connection to your homebrewing and making money. Unless you get paid 24 hours-a-day to run around in circles, brewing is not stopping anyone from making money that would neccesitate it being factored in as a labor cost.
Most people aren't able to, at will, work an additional hour for an additional hour of pay. The opportunity cost is the lost hour of leisure, not an hour of labor. For me brewing is leisure, so I lose nothing.
Lately, I've not been replying to 'cost of honebrewing' threads, in part because I don't want to be misconstrued or seen as denigrating brewers who take a different approach.
But here goes. For me, brewing is a very low cost craft. I haven't bought a piece of equipment in over two years. I have no latent engineering tendencies, so am not into the equipment at all. My brewing style tends towards the simple and 'handmade' approach, nothing is automated. I buy Ingredients in bulk, so even though I use organic ingredients, my ingredient costs average $15 per 5.5 gallon batch.
It is possible to enjoy this hobby and make great tasting beer at a very modest cost.
But here goes. For me, brewing is a very low cost craft. I haven't bought a piece of equipment in over two years. I have no latent engineering tendencies, so am not into the equipment at all. My brewing style tends towards the simple and 'handmade' approach, nothing is automated. I buy Ingredients in bulk, so even though I use organic ingredients, my ingredient costs average $15 per 5.5 gallon batch.
It is possible to enjoy this hobby and make great tasting beer at a very modest cost.
Unless you're dumping batches, or giving most of it away, when compared to an equivelent beer at retail cost, there is no question in my mind that we are saving money. I can make almost any beer style I see on the shelves for a much lower cost than what 5.5 gallons of said beer would run me on average at any store.
Considering I personally drink the majority of the beer I brew, it would cost me much more money to procure that beer from a retail outlet than to brew it myself as I do now.
Considering I personally drink the majority of the beer I brew, it would cost me much more money to procure that beer from a retail outlet than to brew it myself as I do now.
Your time is worth a piece of ear wax, that is falling on a termite, that is choking on a splinter...
I feel Like I am now taking the Papper's approach. I am just finishing off my brewery needs and then I too will be all done. I have zero desire to automate any of the process and really enjoy this as a hobby. I also love the fact that I get to have total control over everything that ends or does not end up in my beers.
I feel Like I am now taking the Papper's approach. I am just finishing off my brewery needs and then I too will be all done. I have zero desire to automate any of the process and really enjoy this as a hobby. I also love the fact that I get to have total control over everything that ends or does not end up in my beers.
That's the beauty of this hobby to me. I am not just attracted to the end, but also the means. When I'm 60+ years old, I may seek automation, but until then, the path is in itself fulfillment.
I try so hard not to post in these threads because they are so numerous but screw it, I'm bored.
I'm sorry, but people who post "but it's a hobby so you don't consider labor cost" are missing a huge point. This audience is already biased that homebrewing is fun. No ****. If it were a drag, we wouldn't be doing it. That proves the point right there. If you didn't find it fun, you wouldn't do it as a means of saving money.
If the statement was "homebrewing is a fun hobby and cheap beer is the icing on top" then you get no argument. We all agree.
However, the statement or rather the question is usually "can you really save money on beer by brewing it yourself?". In that case, it is pure economics question and all cost must be considered. To address it logically, you have put pull the homebrew obsession out of your head and address it as if it were a boring task.
For example, can you really save money by walking to work? Of course you can so why don't you? Of course, there are a billion other things you can save money on at the expense of time/labor but you skip 99% of them because they are not hobbies you are interested in.
At least work in a labor rate of HALF of your actual hourly wage to make it fair.
Apologies to the OP as I know you actually meant to write, "How buying in bulk reduces the cost of homebrewing" and you had no idea how well developed this debate is around here ;-)
I'm sorry, but people who post "but it's a hobby so you don't consider labor cost" are missing a huge point. This audience is already biased that homebrewing is fun. No ****. If it were a drag, we wouldn't be doing it. That proves the point right there. If you didn't find it fun, you wouldn't do it as a means of saving money.
If the statement was "homebrewing is a fun hobby and cheap beer is the icing on top" then you get no argument. We all agree.
However, the statement or rather the question is usually "can you really save money on beer by brewing it yourself?". In that case, it is pure economics question and all cost must be considered. To address it logically, you have put pull the homebrew obsession out of your head and address it as if it were a boring task.
For example, can you really save money by walking to work? Of course you can so why don't you? Of course, there are a billion other things you can save money on at the expense of time/labor but you skip 99% of them because they are not hobbies you are interested in.
At least work in a labor rate of HALF of your actual hourly wage to make it fair.
Apologies to the OP as I know you actually meant to write, "How buying in bulk reduces the cost of homebrewing" and you had no idea how well developed this debate is around here ;-)
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'Twas wondering if you'd show up here.
My cost/pint last year was $1.95. That doesn't include propane, water, or time. It includes all ingredients and most equipment.
This year so far I'm at $3.03/pint, but I also am including more beer-related expenses; NHC ticket, AHA memberships, shipping to competitions, etc. But still not factoring in time, propane, water...
So basically, the most honest way to approach this is as if you were writing a business plan for a commercial brewery. I assure you the head brewer won't work for free just because they like brewing.
Amortized Equipment Costs (if you can buy everything used, you would reduce this but even if you were to resell at the exact same price 5 years later, that money was tied up). This is an opportunity cost of capital problem.
Per batch ingredient costs. Sounds straight forward, but make sure you think about spoilage of excess unused stuff. If you buy a pound of hops for $10 but only get around to using half before it goes stale, the cost was really $10/8oz. If you buy a pound of Special B for a recipe that only calls for 12 oz, don't remove 4oz of cost from the batch unless you know you're going to use the 4oz somewhere.
Other consumables:
Propane (non trivial as I think most people get two 5 gallon all grain batches out of a typical $20 fill) Correct me if I'm wrong.
Water (about $1-2 on a muni supply)
Salts cheap
Filters (if you brew often, probably on the $.25 a brew level)
What about the dumper batches?
How many brewing books did you buy?
How much time do you spend crafting a recipe?
I'll even grant that fridge hobby-specific costs like HBT membership or AHA members, etc are not direct costs of brewing beer. It could be argued that attending the NHC might reduce your bad batch percentage marginally, but it's really just something you choose to do because it's fun.
Frankly, I don't track my costs at all for the exact argument most are making. This is a hobby. Then again, I don't go around claiming it's a great way to save money. If I did, I'd have all the figures.
Amortized Equipment Costs (if you can buy everything used, you would reduce this but even if you were to resell at the exact same price 5 years later, that money was tied up). This is an opportunity cost of capital problem.
Per batch ingredient costs. Sounds straight forward, but make sure you think about spoilage of excess unused stuff. If you buy a pound of hops for $10 but only get around to using half before it goes stale, the cost was really $10/8oz. If you buy a pound of Special B for a recipe that only calls for 12 oz, don't remove 4oz of cost from the batch unless you know you're going to use the 4oz somewhere.
Other consumables:
Propane (non trivial as I think most people get two 5 gallon all grain batches out of a typical $20 fill) Correct me if I'm wrong.
Water (about $1-2 on a muni supply)
Salts cheap
Filters (if you brew often, probably on the $.25 a brew level)
What about the dumper batches?
How many brewing books did you buy?
How much time do you spend crafting a recipe?
I'll even grant that fridge hobby-specific costs like HBT membership or AHA members, etc are not direct costs of brewing beer. It could be argued that attending the NHC might reduce your bad batch percentage marginally, but it's really just something you choose to do because it's fun.
Frankly, I don't track my costs at all for the exact argument most are making. This is a hobby. Then again, I don't go around claiming it's a great way to save money. If I did, I'd have all the figures.
Look at it this way:
The labor involved is strenuous, not everyone can physically do it, and you may even injure yourself while brewing. One must consider whether the labor involved is worth the money saved by undertaking it.
But to figure an actual cost of that labor when deciding whether money is saved, you have to assume certain factors which cannot be quantified. Do you know what YOUR labor is worth in regards to brewing? Do you LOSE money while brewing? If I chose to brew as opposed to work, and forego the pay I would have earned, then there is a quantifiable labor cost. But if all I am foregoing is liesure time, there is no quantifiable cost to the labor I am performing.
Furthermore, remember that you are likely leaving out many quantifiable costs when you consider the beer you are comparing your homebrew to: how much did it cost to drive to the store? How much time did you spend procuring the beer and what is that time worth? Is that time also worth half of your regular hourly salary? Do we factor in car maintenance involved with the miles driven? My point is not that we should consider these costs, but that it would be an pointless comparison unless you left your house with the only goal being to pick up beer and headed to the store, spent time there, then headed straight home.
So I believe the labor cost in a non-factor unless you are actually foregoing pay to spend time brewing instead. Otherwise, the labor is a factor to consider when deciding if it is personally worth the effort to save the money, but not as an actual cost.
Think of clipping coupons. You might say "Is it worth my time to grab a flyer and clip coupons that will save me $5?", but you don't say "How much money does the amount of time cost to me to seek out coupons that may only save me $5?"
"Time is money" is a nice saying, with further clarification that's all it is, a nice saying.
redcoat_or_rebel
Well-Known Member
nah, they said it correctly a few posts up. unless you could be actually making money during the time you are brewing then labor doesn't count. i can't brew from 8-5 mon-fri because i work. if i take a day off of work to brew then yes, figure labor into the cost of the brew. otherwise you would not be making money from that time spent brewing.
say i make $10/hr at my job. that doesn't mean you can make $10/hr at any job you do. you don't one simplified hourly wage for your time. if you have a second job at 7-11 then your second job's labor is probably lower than your main job. but again, it doesn't matter unless you actually have an opportunity to make money doing something else while you are brewing.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
gestyr said:
You should tell your wife you want to get paid for your labor... lol brewing is a pleasure
Another way to look at it, as simple as it sounds, is this:
You go to buy your beer, I make it. Total labor time is lets just say 7 hours for me, while your trip to the store takes 20 minutes.
In the 6:40 minutes that you have that I used brewing, did you make any money? If not, then I didn't lose any money relative to your quicker trip. The actual time spent is worth NOTHING to either of us because it does not have a quantifiable cost relative to the activity we used that time for.
You go to buy your beer, I make it. Total labor time is lets just say 7 hours for me, while your trip to the store takes 20 minutes.
In the 6:40 minutes that you have that I used brewing, did you make any money? If not, then I didn't lose any money relative to your quicker trip. The actual time spent is worth NOTHING to either of us because it does not have a quantifiable cost relative to the activity we used that time for.
Since the point is being missed (again due to hobby bias), answer the question about why you don't walk to work. (and if you do actually walk to work or work from home, commenting as such is *****y).
If you work say 10 miles away from home, you could walk it and save gas, potential accidents, moving violations, and even get more healthy and reduce health related cost in the future. What's the downside? You have to dedicate time and energy that are worth a lot more to you than the money than that which can be saved.
Opportunity cost doesn't only apply when that alternative time spent is earning actual wages.
Again, why can't you guys put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't enjoy brewing? It's a simple exercise. All you have to do is ask yourself why you don't do some other laborious activity that you already pay someone else for?
Another example, I'm sure there are some people on here that pay a landscaper to cut the grass. Why don't you cut it yourself?
This is a build vs. buy equation.
If you work say 10 miles away from home, you could walk it and save gas, potential accidents, moving violations, and even get more healthy and reduce health related cost in the future. What's the downside? You have to dedicate time and energy that are worth a lot more to you than the money than that which can be saved.
Opportunity cost doesn't only apply when that alternative time spent is earning actual wages.
Again, why can't you guys put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't enjoy brewing? It's a simple exercise. All you have to do is ask yourself why you don't do some other laborious activity that you already pay someone else for?
Another example, I'm sure there are some people on here that pay a landscaper to cut the grass. Why don't you cut it yourself?
This is a build vs. buy equation.
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I added NHC costs this year, mainly because I wouldn't be going to NHC unless I homebrewed, so to me that's a "cost" of this hobby.
I sorta track costs just for the fun of it...and I know I'm not being complete even if I did try to include time, water, & propane. For example, I used a **** load of sandpaper and wood working tools to build my keezer. I didn't include much of that as a cost - just the freezer, Johnson controller, lumber, and keg hardware. But, I'm not lying to myself by pretending that I'm all inclusive in my "costs" for this hobby.
redcoat_or_rebel
Well-Known Member
don't forget to adjust for inflation, interest compounded quarterly, and the currency markets. if i buy my ingredients with Federal Reserve notes i received today from selling gold i bought 2 years ago at $850/oz, currently at $1,500/oz, my Federal Reserve notes now have over 70% more buying power. WINNING!
Also, for those that insist that time spent is only a real cost when you have an alternative means of earning money (I don't agree but I'll concede for this point), why can't you earn money during that time? It's not that you can't but rather you value the leisure time spent brewing and would rather not give it up to earn money.
What I always get out of these threads is that the question is never literally "can you save money on beer by brewing" even if it's stated that way in the title or first post. In the context of asking that question in this community, it is immediately considered with the bias of homebrewing a hobby and therefore the pure economics problem is never addressed from an outsider's perspective. I find it common that the general public will always ask how much homebrewing costs when they find out you brew. While they are thinking of it as a "cheaper way to get beer" question, we always answer with homebrew hobby bias. I'm ok with that but I don't think people are acknowledging the bias in these threads.
What if that question was asked in a college economics class and the professor didn't share your love of homebrewing? Do you think under labor costs, an answer like "eh, nevermind this, it's a really fun hobby" would cut it?
Homebrew Hobby Bias: The phenomena that occurs when an obsessed homebrewer cannot conceive of the act of brewing as being a labor cost when considering the question "is homebrewing a cheaper way to get beer?"
What I always get out of these threads is that the question is never literally "can you save money on beer by brewing" even if it's stated that way in the title or first post. In the context of asking that question in this community, it is immediately considered with the bias of homebrewing a hobby and therefore the pure economics problem is never addressed from an outsider's perspective. I find it common that the general public will always ask how much homebrewing costs when they find out you brew. While they are thinking of it as a "cheaper way to get beer" question, we always answer with homebrew hobby bias. I'm ok with that but I don't think people are acknowledging the bias in these threads.
What if that question was asked in a college economics class and the professor didn't share your love of homebrewing? Do you think under labor costs, an answer like "eh, nevermind this, it's a really fun hobby" would cut it?
Homebrew Hobby Bias: The phenomena that occurs when an obsessed homebrewer cannot conceive of the act of brewing as being a labor cost when considering the question "is homebrewing a cheaper way to get beer?"
Thank you for marginalizing my justification, which I considering very well thought out. Just please go back and notice that I haven't done the same to your argument at all.
I don't walk to work because of the amount of time it would take me to do it relative to the amount of money I spend driving there and getting there quicker. But in the amount of time saved, I am not making money. I'm either sleeping (before work), or relaxing or maybe even brewing (after work). I would not make money in that time.
I do believe though that your example expresses exactly what I said about the labor consideration in brewing: is the extra effort worth the money saved? That is a valid question in regards to deciding whether to homebrew or not. My argument is that one cannot quantify that time with a monetary value.
That is a valid point, and I understand how you are applying that to say that I am ignoring the cost of my time because homebrewing is my hobby and it gives me pleasure. But I am actually overlooking it because I am assuming most of us are homebrewing during our leisure time. Unless you are foregoing a money-making proposition to have that leisure time, there is no loss to spending said leisure time brewing, farting, watching tv, or just staring at the wall.
I did:
I am not missing a point, I am looking at it differently from you. You time equals money, which I think cannot be valued, so therefore, cannot be worth money. My time is measured in effort, which does not have a monetary value, like your believe it does.
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