Yet another NEIPA question

[johnstod]

Hi Guys,

Can someone take a look at my first NEIPA recipe and process to make sure im doing it right please? Sadly here in the UK i haven't managed to get a NEIPA commercially and really want to try one so i'm going in kinda blind here.

4kg Marris Otter
1kg Golden promise
0.5kg flaked oats
0.5kg flaked wheat

Strike water of 73c mash for 60 mins at 66c

Sparge and boil for 60 mins

25g magnum @ 60 (31 ibu)
10g Galaxy @ 5 (2 ibu)

Pitch Safale S-04 at 20c

25g each Azacca citra @ 0 and whirlpool while it cools in my sink
dry hop 15g each of Azacca Citra Galaxy at day 3 of fermentation when the krausen drops down
dry hop 35g each of Azacca Citra Galaxy at day 7 when fermentation has died down
Bottle on Day 10

this should give me
OG 1.057
FG 1.013
IBU 33.5 (i'm guessing this hasn't taken into account the whirlpool)
SRM 4.1
Estimated ABV 5.8

Also should i be using whirlfloc when doing a neipa or just leave it out? And is S-04 a good yeast for NEIPA or should i look for something with less flocculation, if so can you suggest some dry yeast?

Much appreciated

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I brew a lot of these. I have a few thoughts for you:

First, I only use about 3.5-4% flaked oats and flaked wheat. You don't need a ton. Also, the maris otter and golden promise blend is probably not necessary. The hops are the star here so that subtle tweak on the grain bill will likely be lost. I haven't used MO but I do like golden promise for my NEIPAs. You're blend or all of one or the other will be a nice backbone for this.

What are you doing for water? I use RO and add gypsum/calcium chloride to get to about 150ppm chloride and 75 ppm sulfate. I usually add a couple ozs of acidulated malt to get my mash pH to 5.3.

Second, I'm pretty lazy and struggling with the metric conversion in my head, but for hops I don't usually do any 60 minute additions. I do a 5 minute, FO and WP additions totalling about 9 ozs for a 5 gallon batch. Another 3-4 oz for one big dry hop works great for me. All hops go loose in the kettle or ferm.

A note about chilling. How fast you chill can really change the result. I have a very efficient immersion chiller so my 5 minute addition is really pretty close to 5 minutes. If you add hops at 5 minutes but take 40 minutes to chill to 170, you'll get a lot more isomerization than I do and a more bitter beer with less flavor and aroma. I know this because I had a winter brewing chilling fiasco and that exact scenario really changed my beer.

Your first dry hop should come while fermentation is still active. Don't wait for the krausen to fall. I do a pretty nice starter and use WYeast 1318 and I usually drop my first round of dry hops at about 24 hours. Fermentation activity has really slowed at that point, but every yeast is different and the amount you pitch changes things too.

1318 is pretty much the gold standard for NEIPAs. If you can get it, I'd do that. Don't worry about flocculation...the haze doesn't depend on low flocculating yeast. In fact, don't worry about the haze...it's a side effect, not the goal.

You'll want to manage fermentation temps if you can. Mid to upper 60's works great for 1318. After about 3-4 days, raise the temps to 70 or so to promote clean up by your yeasty friends. Then cold crash for 48 hours and package.

These beers are best fresh. I hope you're kegging....bottle conditioning these can be a struggle. I have mine kegged at 1 week, carbed at 11 days and really hitting its stride at 18 days.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Personally I wouldn't use S04. I've only used it once and it came out VERY estery, not a fan. Perhaps I need to lower the temp on it and give it another shot but that would not be my first choice. I'd use something like the London Ale III or Omega DIPA yeast. JUST saw your comment about dry yeast. Not sure what to recommend but other people have recommended S04 in other threads... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/ne-ipa-dry-yeast.637363/

I'd also move your first dry hop to day 2, while krausen is at it's HIGHEST. This is an important factor for NEIPAs. Your second dry hop looks fine, but you could let it sit a bit longer and bottle on day 12-13, if you want, not a requirement.

I would leave out the whirlfloc personally. The point of a NEIPA is to be hazy.

 

[johnstod]

I brew a lot of these. I have a few thoughts for you:

First, I only use about 3.5-4% flaked oats and flaked wheat. You don't need a ton. Also, the maris otter and golden promise blend is probably not necessary. The hops are the star here so that subtle tweak on the grain bill will likely be lost. I haven't used MO but I do like golden promise for my NEIPAs. You're blend or all of one or the other will be a nice backbone for this.

What are you doing for water? I use RO and add gypsum/calcium chloride to get to about 150ppm chloride and 75 ppm sulfate. I usually add a couple ozs of acidulated malt to get my mash pH to 5.3.

Second, I'm pretty lazy and struggling with the metric conversion in my head, but for hops I don't usually do any 60 minute additions. I do a 5 minute, FO and WP additions totalling about 9 ozs for a 5 gallon batch. Another 3-4 oz for one big dry hop works great for me. All hops go loose in the kettle or ferm.

A note about chilling. How fast you chill can really change the result. I have a very efficient immersion chiller so my 5 minute addition is really pretty close to 5 minutes. If you add hops at 5 minutes but take 40 minutes to chill to 170, you'll get a lot more isomerization than I do and a more bitter beer with less flavor and aroma. I know this because I had a winter brewing chilling fiasco and that exact scenario really changed my beer.

Your first dry hop should come while fermentation is still active. Don't wait for the krausen to fall. I do a pretty nice starter and use WYeast 1318 and I usually drop my first round of dry hops at about 24 hours. Fermentation activity has really slowed at that point, but every yeast is different and the amount you pitch changes things too.

1318 is pretty much the gold standard for NEIPAs. If you can get it, I'd do that. Don't worry about flocculation...the haze doesn't depend on low flocculating yeast. In fact, don't worry about the haze...it's a side effect, not the goal.

You'll want to manage fermentation temps if you can. Mid to upper 60's works great for 1318. After about 3-4 days, raise the temps to 70 or so to promote clean up by your yeasty friends. Then cold crash for 48 hours and package.

These beers are best fresh. I hope you're kegging....bottle conditioning these can be a struggle. I have mine kegged at 1 week, carbed at 11 days and really hitting its stride at 18 days.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Thank you very much for this great reply.

So if I were to drop my flaked oats and wheat down to .25 each that would give me 4% so I will do that and up the golden promise by the .5 to bring it back in line for og.

The water in the UK is quite soft compared to what I see from a lot of other countries so I will be using modified tap water that will come out with some calcium chloride and magnesium sulphate to get 137 86 respectively and still have my mash pH be 5.49.

Would you suggest removing the magnum altogether and going just with fo and wp hops as I can only cool in the sink, my ground water comes out at about 40f and doesn't take long to get a wort down to past 170f but slows down a lot at the lower end.

I am happy to add the first drop hop sooner if this is the norm, I only went with 3 due to some recipes I had read.

Sadly I'm stuck with dry yeast from my lhbs as they are typically out of stock of liquid, I suppose I could order that in if s-04 is a bad choice?

I have control of fermentation temp so will be following your schedule to get it done in a few days but sadly will be bottle conditioning these as I don't have a keg setup due to the high cost of kegs here, so if I can get it bottled up in a week I should be drinking by day 21 which isn't that far past your point of them hitting their stride so I should be ok there hopefully.

Again thanks for the reply it has helped a lot.

 

[johnstod]

Personally I wouldn't use S04. I've only used it once and it came out VERY estery, not a fan. Perhaps I need to lower the temp on it and give it another shot but that would not be my first choice. I'd use something like the London Ale III or Omega DIPA yeast. JUST saw your comment about dry yeast. Not sure what to recommend but other people have recommended S04 in other threads... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/ne-ipa-dry-yeast.637363/

I'd also move your first dry hop to day 2, while krausen is at it's HIGHEST. This is an important factor for NEIPAs. Your second dry hop looks fine, but you could let it sit a bit longer and bottle on day 12-13, if you want, not a requirement.

I would leave out the whirlfloc personally. The point of a NEIPA is to be hazy.

Thanks I will move the dry hop up a day or as that seems to be the consensus and will leave the whirlfloc out of this one.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Thank you very much for this great reply.

So if I were to drop my flaked oats and wheat down to .25 each that would give me 4% so I will do that and up the golden promise by the .5 to bring it back in line for og.

The water in the UK is quite soft compared to what I see from a lot of other countries so I will be using modified tap water that will come out with some calcium chloride and magnesium sulphate to get 137 86 respectively and still have my mash pH be 5.49.

Would you suggest removing the magnum altogether and going just with fo and wp hops as I can only cool in the sink, my ground water comes out at about 40f and doesn't take long to get a wort down to past 170f but slows down a lot at the lower end.

I am happy to add the first drop hop sooner if this is the norm, I only went with 3 due to some recipes I had read.

Sadly I'm stuck with dry yeast from my lhbs as they are typically out of stock of liquid, I suppose I could order that in if s-04 is a bad choice?

I have control of fermentation temp so will be following your schedule to get it done in a few days but sadly will be bottle conditioning these as I don't have a keg setup due to the high cost of kegs here, so if I can get it bottled up in a week I should be drinking by day 21 which isn't that far past your point of them hitting their stride so I should be ok there hopefully.

Again thanks for the reply it has helped a lot.

Grain plan sounds good. pH of 5.49 is higher than I usually shoot for on this style. Not sure of the implications...hopefully someone else can chime in on that.

With a 5 min, FO and WP additions that I do, I'm usually at 170 within 10 mins or so of FO. If you chill much more slowly than that, I'd still do a 5 minute, but drop it in size (with the 9 ozs I talked of earlier, that was split evenly) or skip it, do a FO, then one halfway to 170, and finally the WP addition at 170. Basically what your trying to do is manage bitterness, flavor and aroma. As you go from boil to sub-170 to dry hop, you're transitioning from bitter to flavor to aroma. You want some of all three. It gets harder when you chill slowly as the isomerization is not consistent as the temps fall. How long to pitch temp from 170 is far less critical BTW.

With my chilling issue in December, it took 25 minutes to get from FO to 170. That turned a 5 minute into a 25 minute (sort of), my FO into a 15 minute. The result was a more bitter beer with less flavor. I keg hopped to compensate and named it "Bitter Cold on the Frozen Tundra" since it was 4 degrees F when I brewed.

Don't fret the yeast too much. An english ale yeast should get you in the neighborhood. I've done other yeasts and still gotten good results. I scored a 41 in a competition with WYeast 1098 in a NEIPA.

Finally, since you're bottle conditioning, I'd get them in the fridge as soon as their carbed. The issue is that something about the hops and grain bill (some think its the flaked oats) makes these beers really susceptible to oxidation. The needed warm temps to naturally carb seem to emphasize the issue. Do as much as you can to mitigate oxidation and get 'em cold as soon as their carbed to minimize this issue. There's a thread here somewhere about the oxidation with bottles and there are some who've done it successfully.

 

[johnstod]

Grain plan sounds good. pH of 5.49 is higher than I usually shoot for on this style. Not sure of the implications...hopefully someone else can chime in on that.

With a 5 min, FO and WP additions that I do, I'm usually at 170 within 10 mins or so of FO. If you chill much more slowly than that, I'd still do a 5 minute, but drop it in size (with the 9 ozs I talked of earlier, that was split evenly) or skip it, do a FO, then one halfway to 170, and finally the WP addition at 170. Basically what your trying to do is manage bitterness, flavor and aroma. As you go from boil to sub-170 to dry hop, you're transitioning from bitter to flavor to aroma. You want some of all three. It gets harder when you chill slowly as the isomerization is not consistent as the temps fall. How long to pitch temp from 170 is far less critical BTW.

With my chilling issue in December, it took 25 minutes to get from FO to 170. That turned a 5 minute into a 25 minute (sort of), my FO into a 15 minute. The result was a more bitter beer with less flavor. I keg hopped to compensate and named it "Bitter Cold on the Frozen Tundra" since it was 4 degrees F when I brewed.

Don't fret the yeast too much. An english ale yeast should get you in the neighborhood. I've done other yeasts and still gotten good results. I scored a 41 in a competition with WYeast 1098 in a NEIPA.

Finally, since you're bottle conditioning, I'd get them in the fridge as soon as their carbed. The issue is that something about the hops and grain bill (some think its the flaked oats) makes these beers really susceptible to oxidation. The needed warm temps to naturally carb seem to emphasize the issue. Do as much as you can to mitigate oxidation and get 'em cold as soon as their carbed to minimize this issue. There's a thread here somewhere about the oxidation with bottles and there are some who've done it successfully.

I have been using ez water calculator which says to be between 5.4 and 5.6 but this is always the same and not dedicated to a specific style, I can always add some more lactic acid to bring it down a little more easily at least.

Helpfully I am about 10 minutes to cool to 170f as long as my water doesn't go off I'll be good there so will look at adding most in at fo and whirlpool, how long do you normally whirlpool for? I will be doing it by hand with a spoon so will have to keep going back to keep it going.

What happened with your water problem? Did the pipes freeze?

Right I will just us s-04 and see how it turns out.

I'll be bottling in brown glass bottles and they will be going straight into the beer fridge as soon as they have had 2 weeks in the bottle conditioning.

Again thanks very much for your help with this.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I have been using ez water calculator which says to be between 5.4 and 5.6 but this is always the same and not dedicated to a specific style, I can always add some more lactic acid to bring it down a little more easily at least.

Helpfully I am about 10 minutes to cool to 170f as long as my water doesn't go off I'll be good there so will look at adding most in at fo and whirlpool, how long do you normally whirlpool for? I will be doing it by hand with a spoon so will have to keep going back to keep it going.

What happened with your water problem? Did the pipes freeze?

Right I will just us s-04 and see how it turns out.

I'll be bottling in brown glass bottles and they will be going straight into the beer fridge as soon as they have had 2 weeks in the bottle conditioning.

Again thanks very much for your help with this.

Sounds like a good plan. If you can chill to 170 in 10 mins, I'd do the 5 min, FO and WP as normal. I'm not super precise about whirlpool time. Usually 20-30 minutes. You don't really need to actively whirlpool...you're just letting the hops steep at that sub-isomerization temp. Stir occasionally is fine from a hop utilization perspective. I also don't care if hop matter ends up in the fermenter. I think it's actually good to have some hops in there for the super active part of the fermentation.

My cooling fiasco was my own doing. Normally I just connect the garden hose to my immersion chiller and let the output run on the driveway. At 4 degrees F I knew it was much too cold for that. I had ordered a pond pump to recycle water through the chiller. It was supposed to arrive on Thursday, my brew day was Friday. I had my brother in law in town and he wanted to brew so I didn't want to reschedule. Well the pump didn't show on Thursday, updated tracking said Friday. Packages usually arrive by 11am so I timed things to be done with the boil at 1pm (a 2 hour cushion). We got 8" of snow that day and everything was delayed. The pump arrived at 2pm.

We tried running my WP pump with the silicone hoses in ice water but it just doesn't do the trick...I think silicone is a pretty good insulator.

Brewing in the winter in Iowa is a challenge sometimes and this is my first winter doing all grain. I salvaged it ok with the keg hop for flavor....based on tasting it I think it went from the planned 45 IBU to about 75 or 80. It was still quite tasty, just different from the plan.

 

[johnstod]

Sounds like a good plan. If you can chill to 170 in 10 mins, I'd do the 5 min, FO and WP as normal. I'm not super precise about whirlpool time. Usually 20-30 minutes. You don't really need to actively whirlpool...you're just letting the hops steep at that sub-isomerization temp. Stir occasionally is fine from a hop utilization perspective. I also don't care if hop matter ends up in the fermenter. I think it's actually good to have some hops in there for the super active part of the fermentation.

My cooling fiasco was my own doing. Normally I just connect the garden hose to my immersion chiller and let the output run on the driveway. At 4 degrees F I knew it was much too cold for that. I had ordered a pond pump to recycle water through the chiller. It was supposed to arrive on Thursday, my brew day was Friday. I had my brother in law in town and he wanted to brew so I didn't want to reschedule. Well the pump didn't show on Thursday, updated tracking said Friday. Packages usually arrive by 11am so I timed things to be done with the boil at 1pm (a 2 hour cushion). We got 8" of snow that day and everything was delayed. The pump arrived at 2pm.

We tried running my WP pump with the silicone hoses in ice water but it just doesn't do the trick...I think silicone is a pretty good insulator.

Brewing in the winter in Iowa is a challenge sometimes and this is my first winter doing all grain. I salvaged it ok with the keg hop for flavor....based on tasting it I think it went from the planned 45 IBU to about 75 or 80. It was still quite tasty, just different from the plan.

I strain mine before it goes into the fv so most of the large hop bits get caught but some of the smaller ones get in so that's OK.

Ouch that is crazy cold. Luckily lowest it gets is - 10 which is about 14f I think and that's at night. But again an immersion chiller wouldn't be very happy at that point but luckily there would be snow to pack around the vessel to cool it down then.

 

[badclamz]

+ 1 on the gypsum/calcium chloride addition and also on the DIPA or Wyeast 1318 over the S04. I used a 300 micron hop screen to filter from primary rather than going to secondary and it came out nice and hazy, creamy and no hop particulate

 

[johnstod]

Have any of you tried this yet? https://www.geterbrewed.com/lalbrew-new-england-yeast-11g/