Next time use Mr Malty to determine how much you should be pitching. Here are the instructions on how to set the sliders.
Yeast Washing Illustrated
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PackerfaninSanDiego
Member
Don't take this the wrong way but there are many brewers who just do things that are not "calculated". There was a tad more yeast than 2 vials of liquid yeast. So, can one use too much yeast?
jwalker1140
Well-Known Member
I think so. The first post explains why:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-not-pitch-your-yeast-cake-166221/
Of course and you are free to do so. It's your beer. But I'd rather use a scientific estimate than just winging it.
Yes, but it's better than not pitching enough.
Yes, it's certainly possible to pitch too much yeast. The calculator pretends at precision, but it is really there to give you the best ballpark information (that's all you'll ever get, with yeast). But it is very useful for that.
PackerfaninSanDiego
Member
The American IPA recipe calls for 2 vials of yeast and that's basically how much washed yeast I added to the yeast starter. I'm goona go for it as it's not written in stone about over pitching. One source says 1 cup is not too much and I have that or less.
You yeast is going to grow in the starter. You may end up with almost 4 vials worth of yeast.
hoppypoppy
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I am about to bottle my batch that I used WLP001. I plan on harvesting the yeast. However, my time is limited today and will be using the time I do have to bottle.
If I pour sanitized water in my fermenter, transfer all the yeast and trub into two large mason jars then refrigerate. Can I let the yeast sit in the mason jars for a few days until I have time to pour off/seperate the trub?
If I pour sanitized water in my fermenter, transfer all the yeast and trub into two large mason jars then refrigerate. Can I let the yeast sit in the mason jars for a few days until I have time to pour off/seperate the trub?
Yes, that is correct. Some yeast has also settled too, but there is nothing you can do about it. When rinsing yeast, you will lose a lot of yeast.
Great thanks.
Does the quality of water used in this yeast washing method really matter much? We have very hard water in our town and we have a water softner for our house but I use RO water for my brewing and yeast washing. Can I use regular tap water that has been softened for washing yeast?
I use my tap water, which is filter through a brita faucet filter. Same thing I brew with. Ive had great results:
"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."
bristela
Well-Known Member
I've been using my tap water for this yeast washing technique for over a year now. I have not had a single failure yet. Having said that, I've learnt the hard way that my tap water has a pH that's way too high for mashing. I use Brita filtered water for that. Yeast really aren't that fussy so I suspect your tap water will be fine.
bristela
Well-Known Member
If you leave the mixture sitting for too long the yeast will just settle into the trub. The whole principle of this technique is that the trub and yeast settle at different rates. This is why you can separate them. Yeast still settle though, especially in the fridge. You should be able to keep the mixture in the fridge and then just repeat this procedure when you're ready though.
SaintDetritus
Member
So would washing my yeast allow me to use it indefinitely, or is this a one-to-two time thing?
use mine for up to 3 generations. I have read on this forum of brewers going to 5 or 6 w/o issues. It might just depend on what type of beer you are harvesting the yeast from.
bristela
Well-Known Member
This is something I have been asking professional brewers as often as possible. People at Oskar Blues in Asheville said 5 generations (brews), most have said ten. One guy even said about 30 (it was a small brewery).
Personally, I'm up to my twelfth generation. I'm hoping that I'm evolving my own strain. I believe that this is what some Belgian breweries do. There's always the risk that they acquire some nasty mutation the more they're used which is why I always keep at least a duplicate from each brew. If that happens I can always go back and revive the pre-mutation version and start again. Haven't lost a brew yet though.
Hope this helps. Always glad to try and make use of my microbioloy Ph.D.
brewski09
Well-Known Member
On the homebrewers scale, the biggest risk is infection. I have taken a yeast (without washing) to 14 generations before without problems. Pro brewers will usually give 10 generation as a hard number they go back to a banked version. This is for infection control, quality control o the finished beer (attenuation and the likes), and mutation control. They have to put out a consistent beer though or their customers will complain.
Your biggest issues to decide on is how to deal with an infection if you get one (maybe a set of master slants every 5 generations so you can go back to them if you get one) and if you are willing to take the ride of developing your own personal yeast strain over the generations it will take to do so.
Yeast washing or rinsing as is actually being done is another chance for infection. I'm not saying don't do it, just to be aware of it. The arguments of whether or not to do it have been discussed ad nauseam.
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Your biggest issues to decide on is how to deal with an infection if you get one (maybe a set of master slants every 5 generations so you can go back to them if you get one) and if you are willing to take the ride of developing your own personal yeast strain over the generations it will take to do so.
Yeast washing or rinsing as is actually being done is another chance for infection. I'm not saying don't do it, just to be aware of it. The arguments of whether or not to do it have been discussed ad nauseam.
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It depends on how you wash. If you make a starter and split it, previous to it fermenting your 5 gallons of beer, my understanding is that this is a 0 generation yeast batch and therefore (theoretically infinite). Having said this, I've never used more than two generations because of problems (the inability) to store yeast for a long time and often using various strains of yeast for different batches/recipes I'm brewing..
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After reading this sticky and grimacing at $7.50 per smack pack, I decided to take the initiative.
My follow up question is since I am guesstimating about 100mL of washed yeast (all 3 combined).
At the default setting in most yeast calculators, I am to assume 10-20% non yeast material in there.
So that means between 80-90mL of yeast?
The default 2.4 billion cells per mL gives me between 192 - 216 billion cells; which is plenty for 5-6 gallons of 1.050-ish ale.
Am I safe to assume the 2.4 billion/mL value and the 15% non yeast?
Should I combine all 3 jars into one?
OR
Combine the 2 smaller ones and end up with (2) 50mL jars and make starters when needed?
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My follow up question is since I am guesstimating about 100mL of washed yeast (all 3 combined).
At the default setting in most yeast calculators, I am to assume 10-20% non yeast material in there.
So that means between 80-90mL of yeast?
The default 2.4 billion cells per mL gives me between 192 - 216 billion cells; which is plenty for 5-6 gallons of 1.050-ish ale.
Am I safe to assume the 2.4 billion/mL value and the 15% non yeast?
Should I combine all 3 jars into one?
OR
Combine the 2 smaller ones and end up with (2) 50mL jars and make starters when needed?
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
bristela
Well-Known Member
I always make a starter culture first thing in the morning of brew day, so it will have been growing for at least six hours before I pitch it. I've made starter cultures with less than you have in your smallest there and had no problems whatsoever.
Thanks for the great tutorial. Quick question for someone who is quite new to all of this, how long could a keep a harvested yeast going? I am going to bottle tomorrow and am thinking about keeping the yeast, but it is an Irish Ale yeast and I don't know that I'd be making another stout or porter in the immediate future (I have some other things on the books first) so could I keep it around until I need it (feeding it the occasional pinch of sugar) or would it start to degrade in quality?
catdaddy66
Well-Known Member
Yeast can be kept refrigerated for a year or more and be revived for brewing. Over time the cells break down so there are fewer and fewer viable cells, so starters with a couple of steps can replenish the numbers so you avoid under pitching. I used a starter to grow my 9 month old us-04 yeast and it worked very well.
They can also be harvested thru double digit generations, so keep harvesting after each batch to save a little money!
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bristela
Well-Known Member
I haven't ever keep yeast for a year, but certainly for several months and had no problems at all. I would say that I always prefer to collect yeast from the primary fermenter rather than the secondary as they should be happier and healthier. If you're not doing a two stage fermentation then I wouldn't worry about it.
Building a portion back up with a starter periodically will give you proportionally younger cells and keep things going longer--though it will eventually accentuate any issues with undesirable selection.
To clarify that, I can say that when I blend WLP001 and WLP550 the balance is nice and mild (001ish) until the 550 starts to "win" after a couple of generations. I guess it's a more aggressive procreator. It's also a good flocculator so it may be getting reclaimed in higher proportion. The same thing happens to a lesser extent within a strain--strains aren't homogeneous, they're just family and have roughly similar traits, and eventually one wing of the family with slightly more or less of this or that trait might start to take over until you have a different yeast on your hands. I have never reclaimed a single strain long enough for that to happen. I hear people say double digits, I think you could probably go even longer. Eventually when you've done it 12 times it doesn't cost you that much to start again, though, just so long as you aren't buying fresh yeast every brew (suckers!).
To clarify that, I can say that when I blend WLP001 and WLP550 the balance is nice and mild (001ish) until the 550 starts to "win" after a couple of generations. I guess it's a more aggressive procreator. It's also a good flocculator so it may be getting reclaimed in higher proportion. The same thing happens to a lesser extent within a strain--strains aren't homogeneous, they're just family and have roughly similar traits, and eventually one wing of the family with slightly more or less of this or that trait might start to take over until you have a different yeast on your hands. I have never reclaimed a single strain long enough for that to happen. I hear people say double digits, I think you could probably go even longer. Eventually when you've done it 12 times it doesn't cost you that much to start again, though, just so long as you aren't buying fresh yeast every brew (suckers!).
I am planning on making 3 higher gravity IPAs in a row (each 1 month apart) for my next several brews. These will be 8.0% ABV and I would like to know if I can wash the yeast from one batch to use for the next IPA. Is 8% ABV too high to try reusing the yeast?
OK...thanks.
beerman123
Active Member
Great information, thanks for sharing and the pictures made all the difference!
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Vinnychuck
Member
Excellent post my man.
dmarc85
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There is certainly something to say about washing yeast. I just had a fifth gen wlp007 strain tear through my stone clone is three days. I'm certain I can use it a few more times successfully.
Just imagine if I grew a big batch off the original vial and split that into 3-4 starters then again on successive batches. We're talking +20 batches of beer off a $7 vial without incident.
I just put my washed yeast into empty beer bottles and then just pitch them at room temp up to a year and a half later! With a good shake and nutrient, I get a crazy ferm within 6-12hrs every time
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Just imagine if I grew a big batch off the original vial and split that into 3-4 starters then again on successive batches. We're talking +20 batches of beer off a $7 vial without incident.
I just put my washed yeast into empty beer bottles and then just pitch them at room temp up to a year and a half later! With a good shake and nutrient, I get a crazy ferm within 6-12hrs every time
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Ive had excellent results too. I see it as one if the easiest ways to save $$ brewing and create great beer at the same time!!
"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."
"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."
Just about to try this....
I have read (Eureka Brewing) that adding salt to make the solution isotonic (0.9% salt) will preserve the yeast for longer.
Any comments?
I was thinking of just adding enough salt to each jar to reach the .9% amount. As I will be making a starter to regrow the little bit of salt should have been reduced to a point where it should not affect the wort.
Tom
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I have read (Eureka Brewing) that adding salt to make the solution isotonic (0.9% salt) will preserve the yeast for longer.
Any comments?
I was thinking of just adding enough salt to each jar to reach the .9% amount. As I will be making a starter to regrow the little bit of salt should have been reduced to a point where it should not affect the wort.
Tom
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I talked to a Wyeast rep about washing yeast with this process and maintaining vitality of the yeast. He is a homebrewer himself and recommended adding 1/8 to 1/4 tsp DAP to the sterile water to create an environment that is healthier for the washed yeast. Ive been doing that and it seems it is as good or better than without it.
"Sometimes Im right half of the time..."
bristela
Well-Known Member
Just posted a thread about reviving yeast collected using this protocol after ~13 months:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/record-reawakening-refridgerated-yeast-486614/
Anybody else done similar? Longer?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/record-reawakening-refridgerated-yeast-486614/
Anybody else done similar? Longer?
so i'm still a little confused on this - i plan on using the yeast bay vermont ale and since its expensive i want to try the washing method.
If i follow the first post, after i fill the large mason jar - with i assume to be the slurry that was sitting in the carboy, am i just aiming to pull the liquid off the stuff that separates in the large mason jar, leaving the "solids" behind?
I always thought that the solid part at the bottom was the yeast and we wanted that - not the water or slurry that we create.
sorry if this is a repeat question i just want to make sure i do it right and didn't find anything immediately and nothing seemed to clarify, thanks!
If i follow the first post, after i fill the large mason jar - with i assume to be the slurry that was sitting in the carboy, am i just aiming to pull the liquid off the stuff that separates in the large mason jar, leaving the "solids" behind?
I always thought that the solid part at the bottom was the yeast and we wanted that - not the water or slurry that we create.
sorry if this is a repeat question i just want to make sure i do it right and didn't find anything immediately and nothing seemed to clarify, thanks!
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