Washing Yeast vs Pitching Trub?

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@faithie999 I don't put loose hops in my kettle. Only in bags. Unless one of those bags breaks open for some reason, I do not have enough solids in the kettle for me to care about. Literally 100% of what is in the kettle goes in the fermenter. I am going to try this filtering thing, but I know that I'll be trying to filter some seriously fine stuff. Not things that I think would bother me in the yeast cake, but I guess I will find out after my bucket filters arrive and I get to try them.

That's pretty much the gist of it. And really the main reason I considered even trying it with the particular batch I have, was that if it works with this, I could do it with anything. If the whole process fails, I'm out the cost of half a gallon of distilled water.

The video I watched which they termed yeast washing, was as pointed out above actually rinsing. The process was to mix the trub with water and agitate it considerably. Then let the solids settle out over a few minutes. Then pour the rest of the water in a new container and let it stratify overnight. Now pour the water off the top and what you're left with is predominantly yeast. That was the premise anyway. If the entire idea is flawed, I'm happy to learn something new.

It's more or less similar to what tried years ago using water I boiled and then cooled again. Perhaps this is another process like racking to a secondary, which I have heard recommended since I was a kid , but would say I've done once or twice in my entire Brewing career. Maybe the first batch or two but never again. One of those processes that creates more problems than it solves. What is the old saying? A solution in search of a problem?

I did not get a shipping notification from Amazon yet.
If you look around for more recent discussion, that method of "washing" was a poor application in a homebrew setting of a paper meant for labs. The general consensus these days is that it's not applicable, and the home version does more harm than good.

That's my impression, anyway.
 
Let gravity do the separating
  1. Boil 4L water for 10min, cooled to pitching temp, dumped into recently drained fermenter,
  2. sloshed to break up the trüb cake, allow that to settle out for twenty minutes.
  3. Pour whatever's on top into two sanitized 2 quart Ball Jars allow to settle,
  4. clean out fermenter,
  5. dump in cooled wort- aerate,
  6. dump off most of the water in the top of the Ball jar,
  7. dump cleaned yeast back into fermenter *only the clean white yeast that compacted in the top layer* into fermenter. Fin.
 
Let gravity do the separating
  1. Boil 4L water for 10min, cooled to pitching temp, dumped into recently drained fermenter,
  2. sloshed to break up the trüb cake, allow that to settle out for twenty minutes.
  3. Pour whatever's on top into two sanitized 2 quart Ball Jars allow to settle,
  4. clean out fermenter,
  5. dump in cooled wort- aerate,
  6. dump off most of the water in the top of the Ball jar,
  7. dump cleaned yeast back into fermenter *only the clean white yeast that compacted in the top layer* into fermenter. Fin.
That's what I had done in the past and I evidently hadn't kept it clean enough. Which is kind of odd considering it was a decade I'd been brewing without a contaminated Brew. The video I saw I said try it with distilled water and just forget the boiling step. I kind of like that idea but there is certainly enough different opinions here on the subject. I will give this a try again as well. Lord knows I have enough trub to work with.
 
No washing or rinsing. I just fill a couple of jars with the yeast at the bottom of the fermentor, then dump said jar into next batch. The less you handle the yeast the better. It's one place in my brewing I don't take any chances.
 
OK guys, the shipping email came this morning and the baskets just arrived UPS... Odd also, normal UPS time is mid-late PM and they will need to come back. Not sure why they'd stop twice...

IMHO, 400 is WAY fine enough to strain wort. My filtering funnel has a larger mesh disk filter in it and wort stops that thing instantly. May as well stick saran wrap over the thing. If this sits for an hour and works, that's great.

I would go out on a limb and say no hop matter will get through this thing.

Here's a photo of the basket with a piece of 80 Mesh .0055 stainless and a piece of standard alum insect screen for reference. The 80 mesh (6400 openings / Sq In) is clearly finer. The insect screen is 18x16 mesh (18 wires/inch one direction 16 the other. Diameter .0095).

20230508_113449.jpg
 
That's what I had done in the past and I evidently hadn't kept it clean enough. Which is kind of odd considering it was a decade I'd been brewing without a contaminated Brew. The video I saw I said try it with distilled water and just forget the boiling step. I kind of like that idea but there is certainly enough different opinions here on the subject. I will give this a try again as well. Lord knows I have enough trub to work with.
I would definitely recheck your sanitation protocols.
One thing I do to keep the bugs on their toes- change up my sanitizing solution, mostly use Starsan but like to occasionally use Iodophor or Io-San in place of Starsan.

Boiling and then cooling the yeast washing water and containers in my pressure cooker is a pain and is a close to sterile as you might be able to get at home.
 
No washing or rinsing. I just fill a couple of jars with the yeast at the bottom of the fermentor, then dump said jar into next batch. The less you handle the yeast the better. It's one place in my brewing I don't take any chances.
Used to do this and it always worked for me. Actually just dumped fresh wort directly onto a newly disgorged fermenter. have to admit the trüb did have an impact on flavor although no issues ever with infection. Back to back batching, it works.
 
IMHO, 400 is WAY fine enough to strain wort. My filtering funnel has a larger mesh disk filter in it and wort stops that thing instantly.
Just sayin; I use a 420 mesh approx 10"x10" 'pillow'-filter in my keggle BK and hop pellets... Constant recirculation and whirlpooling and never a problem or slowdown.
IMG_1306.jpg
 
I would definitely recheck your sanitation protocols
Since my first batch of beer the only thing I have ever contaminated was that yeast rinsing deal. Fact is I just drank a bunch of bottles of beer, I'm going to say six cases or so, from 2013 and 2014. They were all fine. Clearly my packaging was not a problem. I don't know what I did that the rinsed yeast beer turned out a dumper but that's what it was. It didn't entice me to try it again that's for sure. And I could probably make a payment on a summer home for the money I've spent on starsan and pbw.
 
Just sayin; I use a 420 mesh approx 10"x10" 'pillow'-filter in my keggle BK and hop pellets... Constant recirculation and whirlpooling and never a problem or slowdown.
I know It's just semantics but sometimes it does matter, it's not actually 420 mesh it's 420 micron. 420 mesh would be about 30 microns if it was 50% open area. The wires would be just barely 1000th of an inch. That stuff is available, don't get me wrong, but that's not what you're showing. That's way more coarse. Which is obviously fine, we're not trying to break down molecules here.

But to your point, that's interesting you can get stuff to flow through that mesh because even that looks plentty fine. I'm guessing here but it looks like probably about 30 to 40 mesh. And you are clearly happy at that. I mean, a piece of perforated metal filters our wort coming from the mash tun. If we recirculate a little bit it's actually the stuff we're catching that does the filtering. In the case of what we are trying to do to keep the gunk out of the fermenter, I'm sure these baskets will be just fine.
 
I wouldn't get too worked up over what the micron rating is.

As long as it retains most of the kettle debris and flows reasonably well it should work just fine. You are not going to remove 100% of the silt. You just want a reasonably clean yeast cake at the end so you do not have to wash/rinse your yeast.

Letting the kettle sit for an hour or two first makes a HUGE difference. Most of the trub will drop to the bottom after a while so you can use a finer micron rated filter or screen without fear of it clogging up and slowing to a drip. You should be able to open the spigot and get 75-80% of the wort to run thru even the finest micron screen pretty fast.

That last gallon that you will dump in will clog the screen and then you just let that drip thru until it's done. Maybe an hour, maybe over night (cacao powder does that).

No pumps...just gravity...and time.
 
Why not overbuild your starter? That's what I do. Make a spare 1l, decant, split into 10 vials with equal amounts of glycerine solution and put them in the freezer for later use. :)
 
@odie Next batch I do I'll be trying this.

@beren I haven't graduated to that grade on my yeast prep yet. It's on the wish-list though.
 
Have you ever tried dumping that last gallon through a coarser mesh first?
No, I haven't but worth a try.

But typically, that last gallon dump makes it all thru in under an hour anyway.

It's only been stuff like RIS, pumpkin and cacao powder that seem to bring things to a halt. Those I let sit in the kettle extra time before running thru the screen. And the high OG stuff I don't plan to harvest the yeast anyway.

I've had stuff with cacao take days to drip thru. Not worth it anymore in those cases.
 
That last gallon that you will dump in will clog the screen and then you just let that drip thru until it's done. Maybe an hour, maybe over night (cacao powder does that).
Thanks for mentioning that..it made me consider procedural differences we may have; I made my pillow-filter from 420 mesh when I switched from a large pot on the stove and using an Immersion Chiller, to my keggle with a Counter Flow Chiller...that is; I have no cold-break in the kettle to clog my filter and rely on an additional inline filter post-CFC for the cold break. I open my valve full when draining, but the CFC is only 3/8" tubing so it drains proportionally slower, but it never clogs or even slows down.
I'm not going to haggle over the numbers used in marketing products, so whatever the true sizes; Here's
the standard bazooka filter sold pretty much everywhere as "300 Mesh" next to my "420 Mesh" filter:
IMG_1494.jpg

IMG_1495.jpg

:mug:
 
I'm not going to haggle over the numbers used in marketing products, so whatever the true sizes; Here's
the standard bazooka filter sold pretty much everywhere as "300 Mesh" next to my "420 Mesh" filter:
Not a problem, as I said, it's just terminology, but they're using the wrong terms for sure. The 400 Micron filters I just bought are marketed correctly by opening size. They're easily 5x as fine as that tube they're calling "300 mesh". Same for the 400/420 "mesh", I simply have no words for why they would call it that. That tube gizmo shown for in your mash tun doesn't have 300 wires in the entire 12" length. I can count the wires with the naked eye. "Mesh", in the industry, is how many weaves there are per lineal inch. It doesn't describe opening size unless it also includes the mesh diameter and even then you need to calculate that. Hence the "Micron" designation gives a person an accurate idea of the opening size, but that doesn't describe how heavy the 'wires" in the mesh is.

Do you start your recirc first for a while and then install the blanket thing afterward? It's fine enough I can hardly believe you can start off with it and not have it clog up. I can't run my stuff through a sieve and not need to spoon it, same as I think it was Passed Pawn showed above.
 
@beren I haven't graduated to that grade on my yeast prep yet. It's on the wish-list though.
It’s not bad. I get borosilicate tubes from Amazon so I can reuse them. Just gotta not break them :)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/maintaining-a-healthy-yeast-bank-long-term.678997/
Labvida 40pcs of Glass Serological Test Tubes with Black Bakelite Screw Caps Silicon Liners, Vol.15ml 16x150mm with Marking Area, Borosilicate Glass Material, Flat Bottom, LVH004 https://a.co/d/e3qMGxh
 
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Not a problem, as I said, it's just terminology, but they're using the wrong terms for sure. The 400 Micron filters I just bought are marketed correctly by opening size. They're easily 5x as fine as that tube they're calling "300 mesh". Same for the 400/420 "mesh", I simply have no words for why they would call it that. That tube gizmo shown for in your mash tun doesn't have 300 wires in the entire 12" length. I can count the wires with the naked eye. "Mesh", in the industry, is how many weaves there are per lineal inch. It doesn't describe opening size unless it also includes the mesh diameter and even then you need to calculate that. Hence the "Micron" designation gives a person an accurate idea of the opening size, but that doesn't describe how heavy the 'wires" in the mesh is.

Do you start your recirc first for a while and then install the blanket thing afterward? It's fine enough I can hardly believe you can start off with it and not have it clog up. I can't run my stuff through a sieve and not need to spoon it, same as I think it was Passed Pawn showed above.
It's in the keggle from the get-go.... After watching videos of the famous HopStopper (which, being in Canada, costs twice as much after shipping and duty) in action, I went with both a larger surface area as well as inserting a SS wire 'frame' to keep it from collapsing as well as to keep an underside curved above my keggle-bottom. Since I whirlpool, the centre of the top is always left with an impassable mound, but the underside and the outer corners remain far less impeded.
BTW, with an average hop-load for an English style, the size of my mound appears to my eye, larger than to surface area of the flat-bottomed HopStopper, which I can easily see clogging if it were the same gauge mesh.
:mug:
 
Isn't it threads per inch or some such? Like you said it's just different terminology. It's just very unfortunate that two sets of words that sound like they should mean the same thing actually mean very different things.
Are you old enough to remember buying multi-"Gigabyte" hard drives that didn't have the full 1024 KB/"GB"? Marketers rarely know what specs actually refer to.
For what it's worth; When I first made my keggle and filter, I gave it 60/40 that it would clog and my contingency plan was that I would get about a 1'x2' sheet of mesh and fold it accordian-pleat style and just set it on top of the diptube filter... never had to do that, but maybe someone with clogging issues would like to try it.
 
I'm old enough to remember 8" floppy disks that didn't have the full 244 kilobytes.
You just made my day!! :) :) :)
Here's the last of my un-used sub-244kb 8"ers that I was about to fill before my brain was ripped up in 2014.... I was re-writing a C64 synthiszer program I'd made about 40 years ago to include MIDI becuase of some specific percussion sounds I'd had to sample in analog for inculsion in a short film. :)
IMG_1496.jpg
 
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It’s not bad. I get borosilicate tubes from Amazon so I can reuse them. Just gotta not break them :)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/maintaining-a-healthy-yeast-bank-long-term.678997/
Labvida 40pcs of Glass Serological Test Tubes with Black Bakelite Screw Caps Silicon Liners, Vol.15ml 16x150mm with Marking Area, Borosilicate Glass Material, Flat Bottom, LVH004 https://a.co/d/e3qMGxh
Ok, they're pretty cheap.

I was looking at the kit from MoreBeer which has a stir plate, 3 different flasks, and a bunch of those gizmos (not that many, 5 or 10...

Ironically enough, my Rip Van Winkle thread began as humor in seeing all the newfangled gizmos out there that we all have to have. That devolved into a debate about what's necessary to spend on and what isn't. And yet every thread I seem to participate in ends up with me buying something, if not 3 or 4 things... :D
It's in the keggle from the get-go.... After watching videos of the famous HopStopper (which, being in Canada, costs twice as much after shipping and duty) in action, I went with both a larger surface area as well as inserting a SS wire 'frame' to keep it from collapsing as well as to keep an underside curved above my keggle-bottom. Since I whirlpool, the centre of the top is always left with an impassable mound, but the underside and the outer corners remain far less impeded.
BTW, with an average hop-load for an English style, the size of my mound appears to my eye, larger than to surface area of the flat-bottomed HopStopper, which I can easily see clogging if it were the same gauge mesh.
:mug:
I've never seen the "hop stopper" but here we are again with the R.V.W. thread theme... More crap to buy! Lol.

So that's in for an entire hour boil Interesting.

Isn't it threads per inch or some such? Like you said it's just different terminology. It's just very unfortunate that two sets of words that sound like they should mean the same thing actually mean very different things.
I see that same tube on Morebeer and they avoid spec'ing a size altogether, other than to say it's 12 inches long. The funny part is, I would think if someone was going to spec the size, the least they could do was get it partly right. That thing is neither 300 mesh, nor 300 micron. And in fact, it's almost on an order of magnitude away from either one. LOL For it to be 300 micron, it needs 85 wires per inch. And to be 300 mesh, it needs well, 300 wires per inch. It's clearly neither.

I have a Mister Filter at home for my gas lawn toys. They're similar with a fine plastic filter mesh in them. The premise of that at either 5 or 50 Micron (even the manufacturer doesn't seem to know for sure which if you read the comments) is that molecules of gas or oil/ diesel, etc, are small. Molecules of water are larger. Fuel will pass through it but water will not. Now, when you use it, gas goes through like there's no filter there. As fast as you can pour it in. Water won't pass. truly amazing. You could put gas and water in the blender and dump it in and instantly you'll have gas below and water above. I'd never seen anything like it.

https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Funnel-AF...t=&hvlocphy=9006891&hvtargid=pla-304695177827
 
You just made my day!! :) :) :)
Here's the last of my un-used sub-244kb 8"ers that I was about to fill before my brain was ripped up in 2014.... I was re-writing a C64 synthiszer program I'd made about 40 years ago to include MIDI becuase of some specific percussion sounds I'd had to sample in analog for inculsion in a short film. :)
My first PC was a Radio Shack Model III and before it was done, it had TWO 5-1/4" floppy drives, the first of which as I recall cost $1400... o_O

I still have it...
 
Fuel will pass through it but water will not. Now, when you use it, gas goes through like there's no filter there. As fast as you can pour it in. Water won't pass. truly amazing. You could put gas and water in the blender and dump it in and instantly you'll have gas below and water above. I'd never seen anything like it.
OK now that I might actually have to buy.
 
You just made my day!! :) :) :)
Here's the last of my un-used sub-244kb 8"ers that I was about to fill before my brain was ripped up in 2014.... I was re-writing a C64 synthiszer program I'd made about 40 years ago to include MIDI becuase of some specific percussion sounds I'd had to sample in analog for inculsion in a short film. :)
You should check out The Coriolis Effect – Ben Jordan and Bil Herd Talk Tech the discord has lots of ppl doing commodore stuff, including Bill Herd ;-)
 
Even better deal on two (assuming that 400 works).
20230513_195629.jpg

20230513_202212.jpg


Ok Mac,

I'm using the 400 micron filter right now. I kept only about 2 to 3 quarts of the dregs in the kettle and ran that into my filter and bucket. Of course immediately it sounded like everything would run right through but that stopped as you would have guessed. I have a picture here that was about 5 minutes after I started and then the next picture is 28 minutes later. Easily it has a few hours to go. I can hear it dripping, but it is in no hurry. It is absolutely much more clear underneath in the bucket. So the 400 Micron is plenty small enough. And since they're a little bit better deal getting two, that's great.

If anyone is wondering why this is so ugly, this is a double decoction mash that really turned into a quadruple decoction because of the trouble I had raising the mash temperature with the grist. Doing a 10 gallon batch with an 18 lb grain bill, there's really not enough grist to heat the mash up between the steps. Even putting it in twice, I still couldn't make it from 143.5 up to 158, I only made it to 156. I threw in the towel and said that's good enough
 
So I gave it about an hour and a half and figured that was it. It's getting late and I do not want that wort sitting overnight. It filtered almost exactly a gallon and left me with something between 1 to 2 quarts of liquid remaining in the bucket filter. Down at the filter mesh, it was thick enough you could scoop it up with a spoon and feel where there was silt and where there wasn't. But it also had a layer of liquid laying on top that you could have almost poured off if you didn't mind a bunch of Gunk going with it. I decided to call it a day and throw that away. The gallon in the bucket looked very nice and though it did have some silt on the bottom of the bucket, it wasn't very much. I poured the whole thing into the fermenter.

The filter clean up was super easy. Basically just rinsing it got it 99% clean. I expected it to have stuff visibly caught in it but that was not the case. Not even a little bit.

I'm pretty sure the 100 or 200 micron would work equally well and of course would keep more solids out. No matter what you use, it won't be long before it will clog due to the silt that's in it. From there I don't think it matters what filter it is . At first a little bit of liquid will run through and a little bit of solids will pass. I would guess and say I took out 95% of all the solids from the kettle.

Thanks to @odie for the tip on the filters!
 
[...] and left me with something between 1 to 2 quarts of liquid remaining in the bucket filter.
You could save the liquid (trubby wort) lying on top by pouring it into sanitized temporary (holding) container leaving most of the bottom trub behind. Dump, rinse out, and resanitize the bucket filter, then resume straining the rest.

From a 5 gallon (21 liter) batch I usually save out about 2-3 liters (1/2 - 3/4 gallon) of trubby wort from the bottom of the kettle. That's even with having all my kettle hops bagged. I strain the trubby wort through a large, sanitized, fine-mesh "hop bag" placed into a large funnel with a large dinner spoon, bulging-side up, stuck between the bag and the bottom of the funnel to speed up draining.

The funnel is placed on top of a gallon container to collect the wort. It could take about an hour to collect 1 liter, a few hours or even overnight to get the rest. In total I collect about 2-3 liters of wort.

Although kept quite sanitary, handled and covered as such, I usually heat the collected wort to 160-170F and leave it there for 5-10 minutes to re-pasteurize. Then chill in the sink with water.

The saved out, re-pasteurized wort is usually added to the batch a few hours later or the next day. But sometimes it gets used for other purposes.
 
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I have not read through the whole thread as it is long but , and I do not know if it has been mentioned, if you want to reuse the yeast without the trub wash the trub and yeast . Save the yeast and then as a final wash use phosphoric acid to ensure there is no contamination. Doing this you will remove trub and contaminants from the previous brew but there should be no issues with any infection risks.
 
IslandLizard, what I'm doing now is probably my limit. I think I'm already past the point of diminishing returns.

Jambop, I need to find instructions on this specifically. It was mentioned above that what I was doing was rinsing not washing. No acid used. If it ends up being a big hassle, I'll continue what I'm doing because it does work as long as I'm not using a yeast that came out of some strange brew.
 
I use a 400 mesh bag inverted and looped over the top edge of the bucket. The bottom of the bag is about an inch off the bottom of the bucket, and it has a full three-dimensional surface to filter through. I hold the bag in place with a lid that has a hole for a bubbler which I leave open. 5 gallons drains through to the fermenter quickly and efficiently every time. Wearing gloves I can even take the bag and spin it to strain more Ward out of the tub/hop matter.
 
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