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marjen said:
Is it a really nasty burn in the back of the mouth that gets worse once you swallow the beer? And sticks around for a long time with a crappy taste? For all the hops I used I really am getting no real citrus aroma or taste. Its just really dull and blah.
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The burn I get is like you chewed on a hop pellet. Very harsh and astringent and it leaves a bitter taste in your mouth for a while. When you look at the beer, you can see the hop particles floating in it. Once those settle out, the beer gets much better. If your beer doesn't improve after a few weeks at serving temps, then it's probably not that.
 
marjen said:
I may take you up on that some time if I continue to struggle. Might be good to have an experienced brewer watch my process and help identify any potential issues. I am close by in Oxford.
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Don’t hesitate to PM me. Would enjoy meeting a fellow brewer.

How do you keg hop? And do you leave the beer on the hops?
 
It's an infection somewhere. They will dull and blah hop flavor and aroma as you described. Could be your ic or kettle valve but i doubt it? Likely starter or transfer equipment, valves, tubing, keg posts? A friend had a recurring infection that had to do with a valve on his conical. Infections every time he used the conical after none for years of using carboys. Only time I had infections is twice from a valve on a fermenter and once from reusing harvested conan yeast 7 times. lol. I brew great ipas with similar recipes.


Honestly, I'd go simple. Use tap water, treat with a campden tablet. IPAs are forgiving. Mash, boil, keep the lid away from your kettle, chill, into a clean and sanitized fermenter. Aerate by shaking. No starter. Yeast right into 60-70 degree wort. Keep under 70 for 3 or 4 days then forget about temps. One dose of dry hops at day 7 to 10, transfer to keg day 14. I've found little difference in the final product using tricks to limit oxygen, pressurized transfers, etc. I now use buckets exclusively and transfer with an auto siphon.

I wish I were closer or I'd brew with you. It's a shame, because it sounds like you've done your homework, got good equipment and have the process right. Personally, I've found brewing to be very forgiving and more enjoyable after I got away from meticulous notes, OCD sanitization, recipe research, etc. I typically have grains and hops on hand for pale ales, ipas, porters and stouts. Recipes are on the fly and I'm fermenting within 4 hours of heading downstairs. I rarely do starters anymore. Brew a beer with an ABV under 6, direct pitch then piggyback with a bigger beer in a few days when you can top crop or save the yeast for a couple months.

Good luck, brew with someone and dont give up.
 
hezagenius said:
The burn I get is like you chewed on a hop pellet. Very harsh and astringent and it leaves a bitter taste in your mouth for a while. When you look at the beer, you can see the hop particles floating in it. Once those settle out, the beer gets much better. If your beer doesn't improve after a few weeks at serving temps, then it's probably not that.
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Well said.
 
It does sound to me like it could be burn from hop pellets.

For water treatment, all you give is a ratio of gypsum and CaCl2. What are they in ppm? 150ppm:75ppm Cl:Sulfate is very different from, say, 500ppm:250ppm or 20ppm:10ppm Cl:Sulfate. Are you adding acid to adjust pH? Building up from RO is great, but there's not enough info in what you've posted.
 
I had the exact same issue on the current batch in my keg, with a harsh astringent hop burn bitterness on a NE DIPA with 1318. After 3 weeks in the keg, the burn faded a little but was still there.

On my current batch fermenting, I went with new yeast, less hops and lactic acid in the mash. I'm also thinking of stopping using pellet hops in the dry hop. Using only LupulN2 and hop oils.
 
The burn is yeast and hops still in suspension. I don’t see any mention of any cold crashing in fermenter at all? You said you can’t do that? No where to move it to cool it down? You need to get the bad stuff out of suspension. You’re adding all these extra proteins and soooo many hops and adding them during fermentation that the there is just way too much stuff left in suspension. It’s not high ferm temps, you’ll get some odd flavors at high temps but none like you describe.

Make a simple 5% beer with some 2 row and maybe one charcter Malt with half the hops or none at all and see what happens. Bag the hops (did you mention whether you’re doing that or not? Try to crash cool it before transfer. I would also avoid dumping the trub personally. If you’re doing a good job of trying to minimize it in transfer then it won’t have an affect on your beer. You’re probably not using whirlfloc I would assume, I would start.
Move your DH addition to a different time or split it up. Change the process to see what happens.

You’re still using the fermentausarus? I don’t know exactly how they work but if there is a valve have you taken it apart if possible? I would put everything you own that touches cold wort in really hot water, boiling if the material can handle it.

Are you mixing the Star San at the exact ratio they specify? Are you rinsing the PBW well after you use it?

If you’re getting the unitank do you have the ability to CIP? Cause you’re going to need to.
 
marjen said:
Look I appreciate the help, its just when looking at this I really struggle to see how sanitation is the cause of all my issues. Especially with fermenters that were brand new soaked in PBW and soaked in star san. Then followed same procedures as I did prior to my issues.

Maybe there is a massive infection that has just killed all my equipment? Can that happen? QUOTE]



I feel your struggle and know this is stressful to you following good success that suddenly turned south.

After distilling down all the info passed back and forth, there has got to be a reason that your good beers have taken a turn for the worse. My biggest thought is that you have developed an infection that continues to plague you. We thought all along it may be temp control with fermentation, but this is looking less likely than infections.

Are you using Star San, and if so, is it of the suggested diluted strength? Places bacteria can hide are where you get infected. Take for example I have been using Ss BrewTech 7G buckets. Yeah I know its a PITA to take that silicone gasket out of the lid to sanitize...but this is a super place for bacteria to hide. The ball valve and racking arm is another great place for bacteria to hide, so I faithfully DISSASSEMBLE and soak each and every component, seal, gasket, ball valve...etc. I know this is a major chore, but somewhere it sounds like you have bacteria hiding and causing problems.

My brother in law has no temp control other than sitting in a corner of his house. I know what non-temp controlled beer tastes like and while it is not what I'd call good beer, it typically isn't what I call dumper beer either.

I know this is stressful to you, and hope this doesn't sway you from your original goal of growing your brew operation.
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So based on feedback here, this week I completely broke down all valves and connectors on the fermentasarus, and soaked them over night in PBW after scrubbing them as well. I also filled both fermenters to the very top with a slightly strnger than recommended solution of PBW. I also have run my starter flasks through the dishwasher on the hottest setting along with the stir bars.

Also now that the beer has been in the keg for 2+ days I poured out about 2 pints to get beer off the bottom to see if this is related to hops and or yeast. Tonight I will pour out another 1/2 pint and then sample and see if its tasting any better.

For those that asked I do drop the hops in lose. I am thinking next time to use a bag both in the kettle and in the fermenter. I am going to brew a simpler 5 gallon batch this weekend, I am going to shoot for a 5% of so pale ale. Going to use 10 lb 2-row, 1 lb white wheat and 1 lb flaked wheat and no other grans. I am also going to cut the hops in half. Since I really cleaned the starter flasks I think I will still make a starter. I am also going to let the site bar boil in the pot while making the start to sterilize it more.

I think at this point its either an infection or hops/yeast. I think temp control can be ruled out.
 
For water treatment, all you give is a ratio of gypsum and CaCl2. What are they in ppm? 150ppm:75ppm Cl:Sulfate is very different from, say, 500ppm:250ppm or 20ppm:10ppm Cl:Sulfate. Are you adding acid to adjust pH? Building up from RO is great, but there's not enough info in what you've posted.
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I always do a 2:1 (2 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon) for a 5 gallon batch. I have flipped ratios between gypson/ and CACO2 a couple times to see which is better. No difference that I can really see.
 
Just make the starter in the flask. Sanitizes when you boil the DME for 10 minutes. Pretty much zero chance of any sort of nasties.

You should try a beer without wheat and oats as well. I don’t use wheat or oats anymore in hoppy beers and I can make them just as hazy if I so desire although I’m my opinion the beers I make that err on the clearer side taste better and te d to have more defined aroma.
 
marjen said:
6 gallons into Fermenter.
Move to keg on day 10
4oz Mosaic 1 oz Citra 1 oz Ekuanot 1 oz Columbus on Day 3 Dry hop
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From your first recipe post I read this as keg hopping but now from your response I can see...it's out of order right?

6 gallons into Fermenter
4oz Mosaic 1 oz Citra 1 oz Ekuanot 1 oz Columbus on Day 3 Dry hop
Move to keg on day 10.

You don't need to bag anything if you don't want to. If you keg hopped you would need to bag the hops or filter the dip tube...that's why I asked. Keg hopping can produce this burn very easily.

On brew day, after I whirlpool chill, I let the beer sit for quite some time before racking to a fermentor. I then let it sit even longer....like an hour or two while I clean up and then rack to primary. This lets more trub and hop matter settle out. Yes, I use whirlfloc for NEIPAs.

You might just have a lot of hop matter in suspension. That burn should go away as the beer sits cold, on gas and conditions. It can take more than two days for it to lesson or go away depending on the amounts (and types) used. If it doesn't go away (like someone else mentioned) then you have an infection most likely.

Your plan is good. Can't wait to hear the results.
 
marjen said:
I always do a 2:1 (2 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon) for a 5 gallon batch. I have flipped ratios between gypson/ and CACO2 a couple times to see which is better. No difference that I can really see.
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Any ph adjustments?
 
marjen said:
I always do a 2:1 (2 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon) for a 5 gallon batch. I have flipped ratios between gypson/ and CACO2 a couple times to see which is better. No difference that I can really see.
Click to expand...

Are you actually adding CaCO2? That's chalk, and it really is not ideal to add to beer. You should be adding CaCl2, calcium chloride.
 
marjen said:
So based on feedback here, this week I completely broke down all valves and connectors on the fermentasarus, and soaked them over night in PBW after scrubbing them as well. I also filled both fermenters to the very top with a slightly strnger than recommended solution of PBW. I also have run my starter flasks through the dishwasher on the hottest setting along with the stir bars.

Also now that the beer has been in the keg for 2+ days I poured out about 2 pints to get beer off the bottom to see if this is related to hops and or yeast. Tonight I will pour out another 1/2 pint and then sample and see if its tasting any better.

For those that asked I do drop the hops in lose. I am thinking next time to use a bag both in the kettle and in the fermenter. I am going to brew a simpler 5 gallon batch this weekend, I am going to shoot for a 5% of so pale ale. Going to use 10 lb 2-row, 1 lb white wheat and 1 lb flaked wheat and no other grans. I am also going to cut the hops in half. Since I really cleaned the starter flasks I think I will still make a starter. I am also going to let the site bar boil in the pot while making the start to sterilize it more.

I think at this point its either an infection or hops/yeast. I think temp control can be ruled out.
Click to expand...

Your beers need time to cold condition. If you’re not crashing before transfer you’re getting a ton of extra junk in the keg especially with that huge hop load. I would try keeping that keg at 32-35 degrees for 5-7 days to drop as much yeast/polyphenols out of suspension as possible. Don’t put it on gas during that time, just hit it a few times with high PSI to keep the lid sealed. After said time hook up a party tap to blow out as much trub then transfer to a serving keg and then carbonate. If you’re diligent about your o2 pickup you won’t be losing any hop aroma or goodness.
 
Morrey said:
Are you using Star San, and if so, is it of the suggested diluted strength? Places bacteria can hide are where you get infected. Take for example I have been using Ss BrewTech 7G buckets. Yeah I know its a PITA to take that silicone gasket out of the lid to sanitize...but this is a super place for bacteria to hide. The ball valve and racking arm is another great place for bacteria to hide, so I faithfully DISSASSEMBLE and soak each and every component, seal, gasket, ball valve...etc. I know this is a major chore, but somewhere it sounds like you have bacteria hiding and causing problems.
Click to expand...

The complete disassemble is a must especially with these ball valves of the SS Brewtech stuff. I generally rinse abf scrub as much of the junk out of the conical and lid as possible. I take the lid gasket off, throw it in the fermentor and fill with hot water and pbw. Leave it overnight. Next day empty and rinse with hot water and take off every valve and disassemble and soak in hot pbw for an hour or so then rinse and soak in Star San then reassemble everything, install and fill fermentor with Star San diluted to the exact specs and let sit, gasket still in conical. I don’t reassemble gasket until I drain it.

I ha e upgraded most of my ball valves to butterfly now cause disassembleing them every time just got old.

Only thing I really don’t like about their conicals are all the weldless fittings so every 5 beers or so I completely disassemble those and boil the rubber gaskets. I sometimes wonder if I should do that more often.
 
Download Bru’n water and learn to use it. Water and PH are kind of important. Buy a gram scale and a PH meter while you’re at it. Id maybe hold off on the $1200 uni tank until you get a few more things dialed.
 
Using Bru'n water and the reported 2 teaspoon CaCl and 1 teaspoon CaSO4 (or the other way round) with the first recipe above in 8.75 gal of RO, I get a mash pH of 5.5, so I doubt that the mash is way off in pH. Lowering it a little wouldn't hurt though, about 4 ml of 88% lactic acid would do it.
 
couchsending said:
Your beers need time to cold condition. If you’re not crashing before transfer you’re getting a ton of extra junk in the keg especially with that huge hop load. I would try keeping that keg at 32-35 degrees for 5-7 days to drop as much yeast/polyphenols out of suspension as possible. Don’t put it on gas during that time, just hit it a few times with high PSI to keep the lid sealed. After said time hook up a party tap to blow out as much trub then transfer to a serving keg and then carbonate. If you’re diligent about your o2 pickup you won’t be losing any hop aroma or goodness.
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Offtopic: Can you do this without transferring to another keg? Why couldn't you carbonate while crashing in the keg? Does sediment at the bottom of the keg impact flavor on the beer if undisturbed?
 
It all depends how much you transfer over.. if you get a ton of yeast and hop matter transfered in my opinion it can make a difference.
 
So I did make a starter for tomorrow. But I liked the advise on here to boil right in the flask. Did that with the stir bar in it. This is after running through dishwasher. Should rule out contamination of the starter.
 
marjen said:
So I did make a starter for tomorrow. But I liked the advise on here to boil right in the flask. Did that with the stir bar in it. This is after running through dishwasher. Should rule out contamination of the starter.
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Is the stir bar made to withstand the heat of a direct boil? My stir bars are made with a hard molded plastic type coating that seems it may melt. Yours may be different.
 
Morrey said:
Is the stir bar made to withstand the heat of a direct boil? My stir bars are made with a hard molded plastic type coating that seems it may melt. Yours may be different.
Click to expand...

Guess I will find out :mug:
 
So question for the group. I pitched about an hour ago. I used 4 total oz of hops in the kettle. 1 in the boil and 3 in a whirlpool. The whirlpool hops were in a hop bag. When I transferred I also ran it through a strainer to try and capture any hop particles and it pretty much went over clean, meaning the strainer really only picked out a little bit.

Now I am one hour post pitch and the fermenter looks like below. What is all the stuff at the bottom? Is it yeast? is it grains? I will say I do BIAB and when I pull out my grains there always seems like a lot less then when it goes in. Are grains getting lose and maybe that is the harshness I am getting? Should I dump some of this stuff or leave it alone?

36985573044_484c1611f1_h.jpg
 
A little of everything. Hot/cold break, particles from your grain thay werent converted to sugar, much of the hops will still make it through as well. That's typical of a well hopped beer.
 
Even when using a hop bag? The bag was full of hops when I pulled it out.
 
Some hop matter still makes it through, but bags do a good job containing most of it. Don't be concerned... that looks like a typical biab beer.
 
Maybe I missed it but how are you transferring from kettle to fermenter? If it is infection related (not saying it is), tubing could be the culprit. If it hasn't been replaced it could explain why all fermentation vessels have the same issue.
 
So I met up with a member of this forum today who has been brewing for a long time. I left him some of the beer to taste. He believes its a hopping issue and the beer is way to bitter. He thinks its from the dry hops not dropping out as he had a similar experience at some point. I tasted it myself yesterday and the taste was better than it had been and there was some aroma coming through so I do not think its an infection. Its still very cloudy but for of an orange/yellow than greenish color from last week. I am going to give it some more time to see if it gets any better.

For the batch currently in the fermenter I am going to only use 3-4 oz of dry hops instead of the usual 8. I will see if that helps at all. Not sure I am going to use a hop bag or not.
 
A couple updates. With the batch I brewed 19 days ago and kegged 10 days ago. It is now tasting pretty good. I dumped a few pints but it is quite drinkable at this point. Issue I feel pretty confidently with right now is it was hops not dropping out.

My next batch in the fermenter I used about half the usual hops. It’s day 6. I took a gravity reading and it is down to 1.010. The beer is pretty clear. I took a sample and no harsh taste like the last bunch of bad batches. I s mystery is solved. I will take steps to reduce hop residue going forward either via filters or hop bags. Glad it was not an infection.
 
Well I kegged the last batch at day 7. I then quick carbed it and we were drinking it on day 8. Tasting great already. I did add about 3 oz of hops to the keg in a bag held by dental floss.

Really confused why I am having issues with hops not dropping out during all those bad batches. I dont cold crash and maybe over the summer months it was just warm enough to be an issue? It also took a solid 3 weeks for the hops to really drop out of the last batch enough to be good, while this batch, even though i used half as much hops, tasted great at day 8. This is certainly an adventure.
 
marjen said:
Well I kegged the last batch at day 7. I then quick carbed it and we were drinking it on day 8. Tasting great already. I did add about 3 oz of hops to the keg in a bag held by dental floss.



Really confused why I am having issues with hops not dropping out during all those bad batches. I dont cold crash and maybe over the summer months it was just warm enough to be an issue? It also took a solid 3 weeks for the hops to really drop out of the last batch enough to be good, while this batch, even though i used half as much hops, tasted great at day 8. This is certainly an adventure.
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That's good to hear! Thanks for the update.

Be careful with the dental floss...it can break and then the bag will clog your dip tube.

I use butchers twine and a lid like the one in the post below. A friend made mine but you can buy them also.

http://www.laundrybrewing.com/2016/11/citra-epa.html
 
I can’t really imagine drinking a heavily hopped beer 8 days after brewing it... most of the great hoppy beers are minimum 14 days and most 21 brew day to package. And most of those taste even better after a week in the can. You need to cold crash, plain and simple. Maybe not down to 32* but definitely below 40. Heady is supposedly cold conditioned at around 40 for two weeks before packaging. As long as you manage your O2 pickup well your beer will get better. This whole idea of rushing the process cause it’ll be fresher if you drink it while it’s still green is not really how it works.
 
couchsending said:
I can’t really imagine drinking a heavily hopped beer 8 days after brewing it... most of the great hoppy beers are minimum 14 days and most 21 brew day to package. And most of those taste even better after a week in the can. You need to cold crash, plain and simple. Maybe not down to 32* but definitely below 40. Heady is supposedly cold conditioned at around 40 for two weeks before packaging. As long as you manage your O2 pickup well your beer will get better. This whole idea of rushing the process cause it’ll be fresher if you drink it while it’s still green is not really how it works.
Click to expand...



Yeah I’m not a big fan of a short turn around time and I’ve learned the hard way. A long enough primary with a slow carb and condition does a beer good. Some beers are ready sooner and some need more time...just depends on the recipe.

But I think the OP is finally figuring out his particular issue here. A least he knows its hops and probably not an infection.
 

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