Water chemistry Primer questions/advice

[DakotaRules]

If those specs are for your feed water you do not need an RO unit. But if it's for the permeate that's fine too. With the numbers you have the guidelines in the Primer should have you making good beer tout suite.

That's what I thought. I guess the RO is just overkill. I have lactic acid but I need to get the other chemicals to replicate other waters.

 

[p-nut]

I was reading our local annual water report and found this in the brochure. "At the treatment plants, sodium hydroxide is added to increase the water’s natural pH; sodium bicarbonate is added to increase alkalinity; and zinc orthophosphate is added as a corrosion inhibitor." I know what sodium bicarbonate is, but will the other two have any effect on the flavor of my beers. I'm still trying to figure out a strange flavor in my pale ales. I'm hitting my mash temps, taking care of sanitation, controlling fermentation temperatures, and pitching the correct amount of yeast. I have used the base line suggestions and measured pH and have successfully hit the pH that I have been looking for, but I still keep getting this strange flavor. I have tried going to 5.4 and down to 5.2 and still the same flavor. I have made some extract beers with the same water to compare and they come out pretty decent, but every all grain pale ale is not turning out well. I'm stumped. The only thing I can think to do is buy some distilled water and try building it up and see if I see a change. Here is my Ward labs report. Am I missing something?

pH 7.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 55
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.09
Cations / Anions, me/L 0.7 / 0.8
ppm
Sodium, Na 14
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 3
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 1
Chloride, Cl 4
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 37
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 30
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

 

[ajdelange]

Sodium hydroxide is lye - the same stuff your grandmother used to make soap. It, as they said, increases pH but also increases alkalinity as does sodium bicarbonate - baking soda. You can be sure the amount of zinc phosphate that is used is insignificant in terms of its ability to change the flavor of the water. Zinc is beneficial to yeast and some breweries add some zinc sulfate to the kettle for that reason. Orthophosphate is just a fancy name for phosphate - the stuff you malt is full of.

As you are hitting mash pH and have very clean water I don't think the water is your problem but your idea of doing a brew with distilled water is a good one.

Could you describe the strange flavor? If it's not salty, minerally, metallic smokey, or plastic-like it's probably not the water.

 

[RonRock]

More good info from you AJ as usuall. But this statement brings up a question,

"Could you describe the strange flavor? If it's not salty or minerally or metallic its probably not the water."

Are you saying that these are typically what one would expect to "see" with a water issue?

 

[Hermit]

Sauermalz is discernible at 3% but not for sourness but rather a subtle complexity. IMO that is one of the advantages to using it, at least in lagers. It really adds something to the taste. I'm certain one could go higher before sourness was detectable but I'm not sure how much higher. I expect it depends on the beer and the taster. As Weyermann recommends 8% (IIRC) for a pseudo Berliner Weiße I think we're safe in assuming that's too much (unless trying to do a Weiße). I certainly think you are OK adding a bit of lactic acid to the sparge water for pH control.

One of the things I had forgotten about but started remembering as this came up is some of the candies that we had as kids. "Sweet Tarts" being the most memorable. Also the sweet & sour dishes in Chinese restaurants.

 

[p-nut]

Water can ruin your day in 2 ways:
1. It can cause mash pH to be too high. This usually results in dull flavors - an insipid beer.
2. There can be something in the water which causes an off flavor to appear
a)Chloramine - bandaid, plastic,smokey taste
b)Geosmines etc. - musty taste
c)Excess of chloride paired with sodium/potassium - salty taste
d)High content of some metallic ion such as copper, iron or zinc - metallic taste
e)High sulfate content - harsh hops bitterness.
f)Something else I don't know about or have forgotten about.

As he hit mash pH the problem isn't 1) and must be one of the items in 2.

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 73 / 73
Mg: 1 / 1
Na: 14 / 14
Cl: 129 / 129
SO4: 3 / 3
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 43.16 / 43.16


Here was my last water profile. a) I have used camden tablets on all the beers. b) Not sure about this one. c) I'm guessing my sodium is to low to worry about its interaction with chloride. d) I have old galvanized pipes in my house but my water tastes fine. e) None present. f) Must be my process.

Thanks

 

[Jcmccoy]

When you say

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride
is that per gal as well?

 

[Hermit]

When you say

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride
is that per gal as well?

5 gallons of water. Not sure it was ever stated in batch size. Also, it is 'to taste' and not super critical so if you are using 7 gallons then use a rounded tsp?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

IIRC, this was based on 1 tsp CaCl weighing about 5g.

 

[optimatored]

Pardon me for being a moron, but...

Is calcium chloride dihydrate the same as calcium chloride?

CaCl the same as CaCl2?

Calcium Chloride di-hydrate would look like CaCl2 &#8226; 2H2O ... both are the same I believe just one is the anhydrous form and the latter is the hydrous formation.

CaCl is not the same as CaCl2... when Calcium Chloride is formed the two molecules must share electrons to become stable... so the Ca 2+ shares with the Cl -1 ions and creates a more stable atom. Creating CaCl2 ... my chem is basic so someone else may have to chime in and say if CaCl is possible...

 

[curlyfat]

I cannot believe I just now stumbled upon this. I even posted a thread awhile back asking for a good baseline water starting with RO with no luck. Thank you so much! Water chemistry seems to be some sort of mental block with me. I understand most of the science, I'm a smart guy (I think...), but water chemistry leaves me with a headache. I'm hoping to try the very basic baseline on my next beer to try this out. I usually use RO water (with a brief affair with 5.2), or bottled spring water for dark beer. Looks like I'm buying some acidulated malt!

Thank you, ajdelange for the info, and thanks yooper for posting it!

 

[RonRock]

OK I'm getting ready to do an 11 gallon IPA.

19 lbs 4.0 oz Brewers Malt 2-Row
5 lbs 8.0 oz Munich
1 lbs 10.4 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine
1 lbs 10.3 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
9.1 oz Acidulated


I'll use 100% RO water. So looking for someone to guide me with the water additions. I "think" I followed the baseline suggestions.

18 gallons RO 28.5 lbs total grain, 1.6 Crystal, 10.5 SRM

I added 18 grams Calcium Chloride, 9 grams Gypsum, and 9.1 oz Acidulated (2% of grain bill)

Is this the correct amounts as suggested by the primer for an IPA?



I punched these numbers into EZ Water and this is what I got,




Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 8.75 / 9.25
RO or distilled %: 100% / 100%

Total Grain (lb): 28.5
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 1.6
Roasted Grain: 0
Beer Color (SRM): 10.5

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 9 / 9.514285714
CaCl2: 18 / 19.02857143
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 9

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 210 / 210
Mg: 0 / 0
Na: 0 / 0
Cl: 262 / 262
SO4: 152 / 152
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.73 / 1.73

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -214
RA: -364
Estimated pH: 5.02


EZ Water shows my pH at 5.02. Should I be concerned about this? Or trust the primer? Or maybe I missed the boat altogether.

 

[ajdelange]

.

My water is sub 20ppm for everything but CaCO3 which is 90ppm. Diluting 2:1 with RO and adding back 5 grams of calcium chloride basically gives me 90ppm Ca, 140ppm Cl and almost nothing else. So no Mg, Na, or SO4 are really needed?

Assuming some ion is at 20 ppm a 2:1 dilution would result in 6.67 mg/L of that ion. If it is sodium or potassium or magnesium this is good news as those ions are no considered beneficial by most. Yeast need magnesium as a co factor but there is plenty in malt. From 90 ppm as CaCO3 alkalinity a 2:1 dilution will leave alkalinity of 30 thus you have 36 mg/L bicarbonate.

This also results in a chloride to sulfate ratio of over 34 for me. We're really chucking that whole chloride / sulfate concept in the toilet, aren't we? Maybe that's a good thing...

That is something you will have to decide for yourself. My personal view is that all that chloride will make you a nice beer. If you want sulfate quality - add it. It will not nullify the effects of the chloride.

I do get a good predicted pH of 5.31 with 2% sauermalz on a simple 2-row pale ale, but even with no RO dilution, my predicted pH is still 5.35. Why the 35ppm cap on CaCO3 when (at least in my circumstance) there doesn't appear to be much difference between 30ppm and the un-diluted 90?

With the treated water the RA is -42 and the predicted pH shift -0.07. Assuming a base malt DI pH of 5.65 you could expect a mash pH of 5.58 without acidulated malt and 5.38 with 2% sauermalz. Note that by my calculations using 5 grams anhydrous CaCl2 would give 96 mg/L Ca++ even if the source were calcium free. I used 20 mg/L Ca++ and 9.4 mg/L Mg++ for the source (based on your comment and what it takes to balance the alkalinity. Also, the chloride would be 169 (assuming no chloride in the source).

For the untreated water with the hypothesized Ca++ and Mg++ the expected pH shift would be + 0.12 for an expected mash pH of 5.77. Two percent sauermalz would be expected to lower that to 5.57. So the 5.31 number is doubtless a bit low but not way out of line but 5.35 is not very likely for your water untreated.

But to answer your question: the recommendations are for RO or DI water. Soft water approximates RO/DI water up to a point and while that point may be somewhat arbitrary one does have to draw a line. I chose 35 ppm asCaCO3 alkalinity based on gut more than anything else.

 

[DeafSmith]

Probably not as they both take up water - it's just that the anhydrous takes it up faster. I tried this this morning. After about an hour and 3/4 in a room at 26% relative humidity the weight of a sample of the dihydrate increased 1.5% whereas the weight of a sample of the anhydrous increased twice this (3.2%). I took both samples into the bathroom where I took a long hot shower and pondered conditions in the Middle East without running the fan. The weight of the dihydrate increased (relative to its starting weight) by 10.4% while the total weight increase of the anhydrous was 13.6%. Both samples were starting to glisten. Don't know if the anhydrous would have turned to soup eventually while the dihydrate was spared or if both would have gone to soup eventually.

So what is a good way to tell them apart? Anything that lets you asses either the water content of the calcium content of a known weight. A 10 grams/L solution of the anhydrous form has:

SG: 1.0077 Cond: 13.82 mS/cm (8.86 g/L NaCl equiv.) RI: 1.3352

for the dihydrate

SG: 1.0057 Cond: 10.55 mS/cm (6.74 g/L NaCl equiv.) RI: 1.3347

i.e. all are about 30% higher with the anhydrous form (with RI I'm comparing the difference relative to water (nD = 1.3329) and the same with the SG.). Thus if you can weigh out 1 gram of a salt accurately and dissolve it in DI water to make 100 mL of solution and can measure SG or RI or conductivity you could compare to the numbers I have just given. The fact that the ratio of the "points" in the SG above (1.35) is pretty close to the ratio of the molecular weights (1.32) suggests that points are near linear WRT concentration so that if a brewer were to make up a solution of 5 g salt in 100 mL solution the anhydrous solution might be expected to have SG 1.0385 and the dihydrate 1.0285. The difference here is 10 points so determination should be more accurate.

Any of these methods require the ability to measure salts accurately which many home brewers do not have. There is another simpler method and that is to heat some of the prills or powder over a gas flame. A little water will come off the anhydrous (because it picks up some every time you open the jar) but a lot will come off the dihydrate which will fizz and splatter. If you can heat both and compare it will be easy to tell which is which. If you only have one it may be more difficult. A new bottle of the anhydrous shouldn't yield much water.

I suspect, but cannot assert, that the dihydrate is not sold in prill form. But there certainly lots of people selling anhydrous prills. So it's probably true that if it's in the form of prills its anhydrous. Prills that emit no (or very little) water on strong heating are very probably anhydrous.

I also suspect that the whole world (except me) is using the anhydrous so that this is not something you really need to worry about. I do wish the vendors would label their products though.

Thanks for the reply. I can weigh out salts accurately with my powder scale (resolution of 1/10 grain or about 1/154 gram). I don't have the capability to measure the conductivity or directly measure the refractive index, but could I use my refractometer to measure the SG? Are the refractometers we use to measure sugar concentrations designed just for that purpose, or will they give accurate results for salts, too?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, you can use your refractometer. It actually measures refractive index and then reports the strength of a sucrose solution that has that refractive index. The refractive index I measured for the anhydrous form, 1.3552, corresponds to 1.4 Bx and the value I measured for the dihydrate, 1.3347, corresponds to 1.1 Bx. That's not much of a differences because I measured weak solutions (about 1% w/w). If I get a moment tomorrow I'll try to get some numbers for a 5% solution which ought to read about 5 Bx for the dihydrate and 6.5 Bx for the anhydride.

 

[jkarp]

But to answer your question: the recommendations are for RO or DI water. Soft water approximates RO/DI water up to a point and while that point may be somewhat arbitrary one does have to draw a line. I chose 35 ppm asCaCO3 alkalinity based on gut more than anything else.

Thanks so much ajdelange. I played with the EZ water worksheet a bit more and got numbers w/in spitting distance of yours so I think I can trust it. Also brewed a red ale yesterday using your baseline. Looking forward to tasting the results!

 

[RonRock]

No (unless you consider 32% difference essentially the same and given the approximate nature of the recommendation that isn't so unreasonable). Using equal weights of the anhydrous and dihydrate the dihydrate will yield 32% less calcium and chloride as the anhydrous. Or, put another way, you can use 32% less anhydrous than dihydrate. Given that my recommendation is a teaspoonful based on the dihydrate you can use 3/4 of a tespoonful of the anhydrous.

I just did some weights here is what I came up with,

Calcium Chloride anhydrous 3/4 tsp= 3grams

Gypsum 1 tsp = 4 grams


I did each 3 times and averaged them. Are these in line with the baseline?

 

[ajdelange]

OK I'm getting ready to do an 11 gallon IPA.

19 lbs 4.0 oz Brewers Malt 2-Row
5 lbs 8.0 oz Munich
1 lbs 10.4 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine
1 lbs 10.3 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
9.1 oz Acidulated


I'll use 100% RO water. So looking for someone to guide me with the water additions. I "think" I followed the baseline suggestions.

18 gallons RO 28.5 lbs total grain, 1.6 Crystal, 10.5 SRM

I added 18 grams Calcium Chloride, 9 grams Gypsum, and 9.1 oz Acidulated (2% of grain bill)

Is this the correct amounts as suggested by the primer for an IPA?

Yes.

I punched these numbers into EZ Water and this is what I got,

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 8.75 / 9.25
RO or distilled %: 100% / 100%

Total Grain (lb): 28.5
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 1.6
Roasted Grain: 0
Beer Color (SRM): 10.5

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 9 / 9.514285714
CaCl2: 18 / 19.02857143
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 9

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 210 / 210
Mg: 0 / 0
Na: 0 / 0
Cl: 262 / 262
SO4: 152 / 152
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.73 / 1.73

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -214
RA: -364
Estimated pH: 5.02

If you tell EZ you are going to add 18 grams of CaCl2.2H2O (he is using the dihydrate) and 9 grams gypsum to 8.75 gal of mash water and that you have 9.25 gal of sparge water and then check the "Adj for Sparge Water?" boxes it will add another 19 grams CaCl2.2H2O and give you the numbers you got in the "Mash + Sparge Water Profile" line. If you don't check those boxes you get the right answers in the "Mash + Sparge Water Profile" line but the "Mash Water Profile" line still reads what you would get if you added the additional salts. I guess I don't really understand how this is supposed to work. But adding 1 gram/gal CaCl2.2H20 and 1/2 gram/gal CaSO4.2H2O and the acid from 9 Oz of sauermalz will give you 103 mg/L Ca++, 74 mg/L SO4-- and 127.5 mg/L Cl-. Alkalinity and residual alkalinity are really meaningless with the acid added to the water as the pH will drop to 3.57 (you have no buffering other than that of the water itself) and alkalinity is defined by a titration to 4.3 but a spreadsheet doesn't know that and will blithely calculate, respectively, -30 and -103.

Continuing the fiction that RA is meaningful, Kolbachs pH shift would be -0.17. Assuming a pale ale base malt with DI water pH of 5.65 - 5.70 you would get 5.48 to 5.53 as an estimate for the pH less the drop caused by the crystal malt (0.05 pH ?) for a range of 5.43 to 5.53.

Not using RA as a predictor but assuming the sauermalz rule of thumb to apply you would have (5.65,5.7) - 0.05 - 0.2 = (5.4 - 5.5) as the estimated range of pH.

EZ Water shows my pH at 5.02. Should I be concerned about this? Or trust the primer? Or maybe I missed the boat altogether.

No need to worry as you have a pH meter and can check the result. If you want to be conservative, grind up the sauermalz but don't add it at first. Just mash in without and check pH. If it is high (probably around 5.6) add the sauermalz, mix in thoroughly and check again. Should get you down about 0.2 pH i.e. to 5.4 or so. Note that if I put in half of half (one quarter) of the salt additions in the "Mash Additions" box and check the "Adj for sparge" I get the right answers on the Mash and Mash + Sparge lines in which case the predicted mash pH is 5.45.

 

[RonRock]

Thank you AJ. I will give this a good read and try to comprehend.

It seems as though I am at least getting the idea of the suggested baseline additions. I trust your baseline suggestions. And will use them as a starting point. I only want to be sure I am understanding them and using them correctly.

 

[RonRock]

"But adding 1 gram/gal CaCl2.2H20 and 1/2 gram/gal CaSO4.2H2O and the acid from 9 Oz of sauermalz will give you 103 mg/L Ca++, 74 mg/L SO4-- and 127.5 mg/L Cl-. "


In this you are figuring Calcium Chloride Anhydrous correct? There is some confusion with the baseline figures due to the difference between Anhydrous and Dihydrate. A 32% difference seems substantial to me. Just want to start on the right page.

 

[ajdelange]

No, I used the dihydrate because the EZ spreadsheet uses the dihydrate. Yes, 32% is an appreciable difference but as the recommendations are so broad 32% isn't that much. The hope is that you will start out with the recommendations and experiment from there until you arrive at the water treatment protocol that gives you the beer you like best.

 

[ASantiago]

I've read through the thread and, while I've found it quite informative, I must admit I'm cross-eyed and confused by the info. Nonetheless, I intend to follow the primer today when I brew the "Centennial Blonde" recipe by BierMuncher. It will be my first foray into all grain (I now recognize a darker beer may have been a better choice for the first AG, but here we go nonetheless).

However, while I've seen info here about light lagers, I haven't seen anything specific to light blonde ales (except for related info about Brit beers). So I'm wondering if I can get some thoughts on how to prepare today's brew water for such a beer.

I have three types of water at my disposal.

And I have Calcium Chloride, Gypsum, and Acidulated Malt at my disposal, with enough malt to make up for far more than 3% of the grist.

Finally, here's the grain bill:

Amount - Item - % of Grist
7.00 lb - Brewers Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.8 SRM) - 80.00%
0.75 lb - Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM) - 8.57%
0.50 lb - Caramel Malt - 10L (Briess) (10.0 SRM) - 5.71%
0.50 lb - Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) - 5.71%

Could I get some feedback on this? I assume I'd follow the primer for "soft water beers" (despite this being an ale). Does the primer assume the base water to be 100% RO or distilled?

I know these may be some basic questions that may have obvious answers. I just want to make sure before I embark on my journey today.

Thanks!

 

[Hermit]

I just did a variation of CB and used RO, Calcium Chloride and 3% acid malt. My wife actually drinks it.

 

[ASantiago]

I just did a variation of CB and used RO, Calcium Chloride and 3% acid malt. My wife actually drinks it.

Do you remember what your pH numbers were?

 

[Hermit]

Do you remember what your pH numbers were?

No. I don't have a meter.

 

[SC_Ryan]

I've read through the thread and, while I've found it quite informative, I must admit I'm cross-eyed and confused by the info. Nonetheless, I intend to follow the primer today when I brew the "Centennial Blonde" recipe by BierMuncher. It will be my first foray into all grain (I now recognize a darker beer may have been a better choice for the first AG, but here we go nonetheless).

However, while I've seen info here about light lagers, I haven't seen anything specific to light blonde ales (except for related info about Brit beers). So I'm wondering if I can get some thoughts on how to prepare today's brew water for such a beer.

I have three types of water at my disposal.

And I have Calcium Chloride, Gypsum, and Acidulated Malt at my disposal, with enough malt to make up for far more than 3% of the grist.

Finally, here's the grain bill:

Amount - Item - % of Grist
7.00 lb - Brewers Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.8 SRM) - 80.00%
0.75 lb - Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM) - 8.57%
0.50 lb - Caramel Malt - 10L (Briess) (10.0 SRM) - 5.71%
0.50 lb - Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) - 5.71%

Could I get some feedback on this? I assume I'd follow the primer for "soft water beers" (despite this being an ale). Does the primer assume the base water to be 100% RO or distilled?

I know these may be some basic questions that may have obvious answers. I just want to make sure before I embark on my journey today.

Thanks!

First off, I would recommend using the distilled if you are going to be paying for the water anyway. I always used distilled because I can get it pretty cheap and I love the fact that you always know the EXACT mineral content. Makes your results more repeatable

Anywho, I have a pH meter and I love using this primer method. I get far more consistent results than I did previously by trying to tweak the entire mineral profile. I would recommend using just calcium chloride as the primer suggests, then mix in some Gypsum in future batches if the bitterness isn't sharp enough for you. CalCl would probably be great for this recipe. I brewed an IIPA with 100% Calcium Chloride and it came out fantastic.

I add one gram per gallon (the rough equivalent of the 1tsp per 5 gallons) of Calcium Chloride in my mash and sparge water. Using distilled water, I have found that 1.2%-1.5% of acid malt is all it takes to get my pH into the ideal room temperature range of 5.4-5.5 (at mash temperatures this would be roughly 5.2-5.3).

I brewed a very light 2 SRM beer yesterday and got a metered cool reading of 5.5 using the 1 gram per gallon and exactly 1.4% sauermalz. Hope this helps!

 

[DeafSmith]

Yes, you can use your refractometer. It actually measures refractive index and then reports the strength of a sucrose solution that has that refractive index. The refractive index I measured for the anhydrous form, 1.3552, corresponds to 1.4 Bx and the value I measured for the dihydrate, 1.3347, corresponds to 1.1 Bx. That's not much of a differences because I measured weak solutions (about 1% w/w). If I get a moment tomorrow I'll try to get some numbers for a 5% solution which ought to read about 5 Bx for the dihydrate and 6.5 Bx for the anhydride.

I have been using the Pickle Crisp CaCl2 (from the grocery store) - it is in the form of little round balls (prills?). I dissolved 2 grams of Pickle Crisp in 40 grams of distilled water (didn't have an accurate way to measure out 40 mL, even though I probably should have made a solution with a total volume of 40 mL). With my refractometer, I read 7.1 Brix. Does this mean the Pickle Crisp is anhydrous?

 

[ASantiago]

First off, I would recommend using the distilled if you are going to be paying for the water anyway. I always used distilled because I can get it pretty cheap and I love the fact that you always know the EXACT mineral content. Makes your results more repeatable

I went with 100% distilled water as my base. I had already purchased it (at $3.89 for 6 gallons at Costco). I like the notion of repeatability.

I would recommend using just calcium chloride as the primer suggests, then mix in some Gypsum in future batches if the bitterness isn't sharp enough for you.

I add one gram per gallon (the rough equivalent of the 1tsp per 5 gallons) of Calcium Chloride in my mash and sparge water. Using distilled water, I have found that 1.2%-1.5% of acid malt is all it takes to get my pH into the ideal room temperature range of 5.4-5.5 (at mash temperatures this would be roughly 5.2-5.3).

Well, my first time doing AG went quite well. But I digress. More relevant to this topic are the numbers I registered throughout the process. As I mentioned, I went with 100% distilled water, with 2.72 grams of Calcium Chloride into 8.5 gallons of water (adjustment made by BeerSmith based on the primer profile I entered -which is based on 5 gallons- and the volume of mash/sparge water required). I also added .27 lbs of acidulated malt to the grain bill, for 2.99% of the total grist.

The following measurements were done with pH strips; all gravity readings temp adjusted:

1. The initial water pH (before adding the grain) was ~4.6 @ 78F.
2. Once I mixed the mash and after about 5 minutes, the pH went to ~5 at 149F (the recipe called for 150F).
3. After 60 minutes, the first runnings from the mash came at a pH of ~5 at 109F (read from a sample taken out and allowed to cool) and at a gravity of 1.078.
4. After batch sparging at around 160F (from 172F water) for another 10 minutes of so, the total into the kettle was ~7 gallons at 99F with a pH of ~5 and gravity at 1.036.
5. The final reading was out of the kettle and into the fermenter, with a pH still of ~5 at 76F and a gravity of 1.042.

As mentioned earlier, the recipe is for a light blonde ale.

So, I'm hoping this gives a good picture of the results I obtained and maybe I can get an idea from you guys as to what actually transpired. That would be invaluable to me.

 

[SC_Ryan]

[*]Once I mixed the mash and after about 5 minutes, the pH went to ~5 at 149F (the recipe called for 150F).

I am assuming that what you are saying is that your pH reading was "roughly" 5.0 and that the sample was tested at 149*. Correct?

Two things. It looks like you used too much acid malt and not enough calcium chloride. The primer suggests 2% acid malt as the base and AJ even suggests only putting in half of that amount, testing to see where that gets you, then adding the rest if you need it.

It's unclear to me how you calculated the calcium chloride addition. From what I understand a teaspoon of calcium chloride weighs very close to 5 grams. Thus the 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons of brewing water works out to roughly one gram per gallon. If you had 8 gallons of brewing water, you would need 8 grams of calcium chloride.

Make sense?

PS: Congrats on your first AG!

 

[emjay]

I am assuming that what you are saying is that your pH reading was "roughly" 5.0 and that the sample was tested at 149*. Correct?

Two things. It looks like you used too much acid malt and not enough calcium chloride. The primer suggests 2% acid malt as the base and AJ even suggests only putting in half of that amount, testing to see where that gets you, then adding the rest if you need it.

It's unclear to me how you calculated the calcium chloride addition. From what I understand a teaspoon of calcium chloride weighs very close to 5 grams. Thus the 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons of brewing water works out to roughly one gram per gallon. If you had 8 gallons of brewing water, you would need 8 grams of calcium chloride.

Make sense?

PS: Congrats on your first AG!

Does a teaspoon really weigh 5 grams? That's precisely the density of water.

 

[ASantiago]

I am assuming that what you are saying is that your pH reading was "roughly" 5.0 and that the sample was tested at 149*. Correct?

Correct. I don't think I can say "5.0 pH" if I'm using strips.

Two things. It looks like you used too much acid malt and not enough calcium chloride. The primer suggests 2% acid malt as the base and AJ even suggests only putting in half of that amount, testing to see where that gets you, then adding the rest if you need it.

You are correct regarding the base. However, the primer addresses soft water beers specifically with 1/2 the baseline amount of Calcium Chloride and increasing the sauermalz (acidulated malt) to 3%. This is what I went with. I had my concerns about this also applying to a light blonde ale recipe and that's what my post yesterday was about. But I never got any replies addressing that specific question, so I proceeded as planned. I know I should have posted my question a lot earlier than the morning of my brew day.

It's unclear to me how you calculated the calcium chloride addition. From what I understand a teaspoon of calcium chloride weighs very close to 5 grams. Thus the 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons of brewing water works out to roughly one gram per gallon. If you had 8 gallons of brewing water, you would need 8 grams of calcium chloride.

I went by another post in this thread in which ajdelange indicated a teaspoon of CaCl was 3.2 grams. So, based on that and the soft water guidelines, I halved that to 1.6 grams for 5 gallons for a light ale, fed it to BeerSmith, and it in turn calculated 2.72 grams for 8.51 gallons.

PS: Congrats on your first AG!

Thanks, man! I gotta tell you, it was awesome! I totally loved it. I was already doing partial mashes (for a year), so the jump wasn't that much of a change. But I totally dig the control, the freshness, and even the geeky stuff like water chemistry.

 

[SC_Ryan]

Does a teaspoon really weigh 5 grams? That's precisely the density of water.

That's what I was led to believe. I wish I was at home right now so I could throw a teaspoon on the scale and see. I'm sure AJ will be through eventually to set us straight.

 

[SC_Ryan]

You are correct regarding the base. However, the primer addresses soft water beers specifically with 1/2 the baseline amount of Calcium Chloride and increasing the sauermalz (acidulated malt) to 3%. This is what I went with. I had my concerns about this also applying to a light blonde ale recipe and that's what my post yesterday was about. But I never got any replies addressing that specific question, so I proceeded as planned. I know I should have posted my question a lot earlier than the morning of my brew day.

Ah yes, the soft water beers. I think the soft water recommendation is for people who are trying to replicate beers brewed in very soft water regions (ie pilsner and helles). I think with a blonde ale you would want to stick with the original primer. Sounds like you followed the soft water instructions pretty well though. Tough to say exactly where you were because of the accuracy of strips but hopefully it turns out great!

I posted this yesterday but it was probably too late

I brewed a very light 2 SRM beer yesterday and got a metered cool reading of 5.5 using the 1 gram per gallon and exactly 1.4% sauermalz. Hope this helps!

 

[ASantiago]

I saw your post, but it was indeed too late... Next time I'll ask with plenty of time.

The thing is, I *was* trying to get soft water. I'm using the Centennial Blond recipe as a springboard for the lightest beer I can produce with ale yeast.

I still would like to understand the numbers I got, though. And how they may affect the beer.

 

[SC_Ryan]

I still would like to understand the numbers I got, though. And how they may affect the beer.

It's tough to say because pH strips have been reported as being pretty far from perfect. I have never used them myself but from talking to people that have used them, I have heard that they typically read a little low. If that's the case for the strips that you used, then you may have hit your numbers exactly where you want them. If you want real accuracy, you will need a pH meter though.

I suppose the real data will be in the flavor of the beer. I think you certainly hit it close enough to produce a very good beer. The affect in missing mash pH is typically astringency in the hop or malt flavor.

 

[boo boo]

I think I'll try the baseline additions for my next brew to see if what I suspect is too high a PH in my mash.
Nice read.

 

[Elisha8685]

The science behind the water is somewhat of a revelation to me as of late. There's so much that I was ignorant of that I feel like my head will explode soon. I will return and reread all of the water postings over the next few days until my small brain can handle the information.

 

[Hermit]

The science behind the water is somewhat of a revelation to me as of late. There's so much that I was ignorant of that I feel like my head will explode soon. I will return and reread all of the water postings over the next few days until my small brain can handle the information.

Just start with the original post in the thread. It is meant to be there to simplify things to get you started.

 

[bernerbrau]

Many beginning and advanced brewers assume that it is necessary when brewing, for example, a Munich Helles, to duplicate Munich water and there are many places where one can find ion profiles for Munich water and spreadsheets into which one can insert those profiles and details of one’s own water and be given advice on what minerals to add to duplicate Munich. There are multiple potential problems with this approach. First, published water reports are very often wrong. Second, it is not enough to know what Munich water is like, You must also know what the brewer did to make the beer with the existing water. In the case of Helles, for example, the water needs to be softened. Finally, the spreadsheets often calculate salt additions based on simplifications of the chemistry involved, consideration of things that are essentially irrelevant (beer color, chloride to sulfate ration) and reliance on models of things (e.g. effects of dark malt on mash pH) that really can’t be modeled very well. When all the approximations are good the result can be fine but when they aren’t the result can be salt addition recommendations that can have a detrimental effect on the beer,

All right, I gotta ask because all this contradictory information is confusing me.

If getting soft enough water, adding a little bit of CaCl2, adding some gypsum if the style calls for it, and adding sauermalz or lactic acid to correct the mash pH is all that is necessary for proper brewing chemistry, why do we have so many people on HBT still advocating the use of complicated math, treatment spreadsheets, and exact mineral profiles?

Is this just one of those things (e.g. HSA, Autolysis, Liquid Yeast is "better") that's "old information" that comes from commercial brewery knowledge, and we're just now learning to do it better? Or is it something (e.g. Extract vs. AG) where one is recommended to beginners over the other?

 

[Hermit]

The primer is a starting point. Nothing more. The idea was to cut though all of the complicated math, etc and give the beginner someplace to start. You build on the information as you go. Personally, I haven't seen the need to budge much off the starting point though. At least not yet.