Help Me With Water Chemistry

BrewSwag 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
jrsdws

jrsdws

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
120
Reaction score
19
Location
Central Illinois
Been brewing for several years but just started trying to learn about water chemistry lately. I use my well water and test it with a LaMottes BrewLab test kit.

Here are my latest test readings:

PH: 6.7
Ca: 72
Mg: 0
Na: 46
SO4: 50
Cl: 50
HCO3: 300

I brew several different styles and use BeerSmith and Palmer"s Brewing Water calculator and kind of compare results and go from there.

One thing I'm trying to understand is how to get more hop flavor in my APAs from my mid to late additions.....25min to flameout...steep...dry...etc..

I have brewed with my untreated water and just adjusted for mash ph. I have adjust sulfates up to around 180ppm with chlorides around 90ppm. I've felt that all of these and everywhere in between leaves me with what I describe a "muted" hop flavor. I'm not after the bitterness as I go pretty light at 50min with something like Simcoe or Magnum.....shooting for around 15-20ibu then try to get the rest......usually another 15-20ibu in the late additions. I've tried flameouts, steeping at various temps, dip hop, dry hops, etc. I've tried muslin bags, nylon bags and hop spiders....I really don't get any big differences from techniques or bags vs spider.

I ferment in Speidel fermenters and perform closed transfers into kegs. If I dry hop, I transfer onto hops, then close transfer again into serving keg. I've been burnt once with oxidation and I do everything I can now to prevent that from happening again.

So this leaves me wondering about my water chemistry. Should I be pushing my sulfate level higher and looking for something more like 250ppm or 300ppm? Do I take my chlorides up or shoot for a higher ration of like 3:1?

I like the beer we're making, but this "muted" flavor kind of drives me crazy. I can dry hop in the keg and it's great for a short while, but I still feel like it kind of peters out some.
 
I wouldn't touch the sodium, that's not a problem.

Overall your water looks fine except for that bicarbonate, which you say you're treating with lactic acid so then that's not a problem either.

I wonder if you are stuck in a rut using a dull yeast that mutes hop character. I wonder if you'll get better results experimenting with different yeast strains.

Also, jacking up both chloride and sulfate quite a bit isn't going to hurt anything and might help a lot.
 
I don't know why your hop flavors are muted, but...

That water profile is impossible. There needs to be a lot more cation charges (Ca, Mg, and/or Na) to make this balance. I've never heard of the LaMottes BrewLab test kit, but something is wrong with that result.
 
I build my water for pastry stouts to about 100 ppm sodium, and they definitely do not taste salty. That said, I suppose it's possible (in the absence of evidence to the contrary) that sodium could mute some hop characteristics without tasting salty. I haven't built any significant sodium levels for a hoppy beer. And it's been a long time since I read "Water." Did John's salt spiking trials include APAs/IPAs?
 
Water, p 153 (more evidence that personal tastes vary):

1682471677693.png



@jrsdws : given what @VikeMan said about that water profile (#5), my comment in #2 may not be valid. But, once again, it seems to come down to individual taste.
 
dmtaylor said:
I wouldn't touch the sodium, that's not a problem.

Overall your water looks fine except for that bicarbonate, which you say you're treating with lactic acid so then that's not a problem either.

I wonder if you are stuck in a rut using a dull yeast that mutes hop character. I wonder if you'll get better results experimenting with different yeast strains.

Also, jacking up both chloride and sulfate quite a bit isn't going to hurt anything and might help a lot.
Click to expand...
Thank you. I am brewing a pale this weekend using Wyeast 1098 and will try bumping chloride and sulfate up.
 
jrsdws said:
Thank you. I am brewing a pale this weekend using Wyeast 1098 and will try bumping chloride and sulfate up.
Click to expand...
That is a fine plan...I just don't think either will really help if your main problem is a "muted" hop flavor. Sulfate will help promote a dry, crisp character that will help hop bitterness show more. For me, Chloride registers as a "fullness" (a bit of a "slick" feeling).

pH might impact hop character. Are you able to measure mash pH? I don't take other pH readings (boil, packaging, etc.) but maybe I should.

Listening to the most recent CB&B Podcast with a panel of top notch IPA brewers, their number one suggestion for hop flavors was to focus on extremely low dissolved oxygen numbers. Maybe you have a good process for avoiding cold side oxidation, but maybe there are still some areas you could improve.

Also, one of the biggest changes I made to get more hop character in my APA and IPAs was...to use more hops. What do your recipes look like? For a 5 gallon batch, my total hop usages is around: APA = 4-5 oz, IPA = 9-10 oz, NEIPA = 12-15 oz.
 
CascadesBrewer said:
That is a fine plan...I just don't think either will really help if your main problem is a "muted" hop flavor. Sulfate will help promote a dry, crisp character that will help hop bitterness show more. For me, Chloride registers as a "fullness" (a bit of a "slick" feeling).

pH might impact hop character. Are you able to measure mash pH? I don't take other pH readings (boil, packaging, etc.) but maybe I should.

Listening to the most recent CB&B Podcast with a panel of top notch IPA brewers, their number one suggestion for hop flavors was to focus on extremely low dissolved oxygen numbers. Maybe you have a good process for avoiding cold side oxidation, but maybe there are still some areas you could improve.

Also, one of the biggest changes I made to get more hop character in my APA and IPAs was...to use more hops. What do your recipes look like? For a 5 gallon batch, my total hop usages is around: APA = 4-5 oz, IPA = 9-10 oz, NEIPA = 12-15 oz.
Click to expand...
Well I'm not looking for bitterness in my APA, but rather a fairly malt and hop balance....perhaps leaning towards hops on many of them.
I do check pH and adjust my mash to 5.2-5.4 using lactic acid.
One of the APA's I've really been trying to work through is hopped with Citra, Mosaic, and Belma. This is modeled after a one of my favorites at a local craft brewery. Here is the hop schedule:
50min = .50oz Simcoe
25min = .25oz Citra
25min = .25oz Mosaic
10min = .50oz Citra
10min = .50oz Mosaic
00min = 1.5oz Citra hop spider at flameout recirculating wort for 20min but not chilling - temp dropped to 205* - chilled to pitch temp
00min = 1.5oz Mosaic hop spider at flameout recirculating wort for 20min but no chilling - temp dropped to 205* - chilled to pitch temp
00min = 3.0oz Belma hop spider at flameout recirculating wort for 20min but no chilling - temp dropped to 205* - chilled to pitch temp

This beer turned out pretty good this time. Belma is not very strong and I don't want the Citra and Mosaic to overwhelm it. I still think I'd like a little more of the hop flavor but perhaps this one is close. I think I'm going to brew it again and dip hop as opposed to flameout and see how it does.....or maybe just go back to dry hopping. I've been trying to avoid dry hopping in this style to minimize oxygen exposure.
 
jrsdws said:
I do check pH and adjust my mash to 5.2-5.4 using lactic acid.
Click to expand...

Speaking of pH, you might want to measure your pH at packaging, as @CascadesBrewer suggested. Dry Hopping increases pH. The more hops, the bigger the pH shift. Adding a small amount of acid (such as citric acid) can counteract that and help hop flavors to "pop."
 
My planned brew this weekend looks like this:

10lbs of 2 row
2lbs of munich
0.6lbs of crystal 60
0.3lbs of crystal 120

0.3oz Simcoe @ 50min
0.6oz Simcoe @ 7min
0.8oz Styrian Goldings @ 7min
3.0oz Cascade dry hop/dip hop

Wyeast 1098 British Ale Yeast

BeerSmith says this should be about 32ibu. I want a nice malt/hop balance on this one.

Any advice on water? Sulfates to chloride, etc?
 
VikeMan said:
Speaking of pH, you might want to measure your pH at packaging, as @CascadesBrewer suggested. Dry Hopping increases pH. The more hops, the bigger the pH shift. Adding a small amount of acid (such as citric acid) can counteract that and help hop flavors to "pop."
Click to expand...
I have not done that! Just add it to keg after tasting? Is there a pH target at packaging?
 
jrsdws said:
I have not done that! Just add it to keg after tasting? Is there a pH target at packaging?
Click to expand...

I would shoot for something between 4.0 and 4.5, which is a "normal" range for ales. You could add it to taste, but depending on your process, that might involve repeated exposures to air. When I have added acid on the cold side, I made my best s.w.a.g. at how much was needed and added it in the most oxygen free way possible. A corny keg gas post "injector" works well for this (and liquids in general).

Scott Janish wrote a very interesting article on the topic.
A Look at pH in Hoppy Beers
 
This is the second thread in different forums where everything is blamed for less than desired hop bitterness and neither of them questions their own palate. Bump up the hops or try a new variety of hops. Ignore the IBU estimates that software pukes out and trust your personal taste.
 
+1 Kevin58 It's not rocket surgery, we tend to over-think things it the hobby but it tends to all come out in the boil. Kevin's advice is bang on. If however you still feel the need to adjust the water I suggest going to store bought spring water and adjust that with the correct amounts of water chems for your brew and see what you get. What ever you get, it will still be drinkable...enjoy and good luck! Kiwi
 
KiwiBruce said:
If however you still feel the need to adjust the water I suggest going to store bought spring water and adjust that with the correct amounts of water chems for your brew and see what you get.
Click to expand...

If building water, it's better to start with RO/distilled than spring water, unless you know the ion content in that particular spring water. And if you don't know what's in the spring water, how would you know what to add?

But even if the particular spring water's profile is known, RO/distilled is more flexible, i.e. a blank canvas.
 
You have high bicarbonate water. I have pretty similar water with ~300mg/L HCO3. You need *a lot* of acid for a pale beer, not just during the mash, but also the sparge and in the kettle. For a recent 5gal batch of NE pale ale, I used: 32.1mL 10% hydrochloric acid, 4.9mL 80% lactic acid, 2.4mL 75% phosphoric acid. The flameout pH was 5.17, and I think I still could've used a bit more acid. I use a bunch of different acids so that the conjugate pair of the acid will not become overwhelming -- I'd expect the beer to taste like yogurt if you use just the equivalent amount of lactic.

There's a fairly easy experiment you can do to check if HCO3 is really the problem. Boil all of your brewing water for about 10min, wait until it clears, and decant it off of the precipitate chalk. IMPORTANT: avoid picking up any of the precipitate when you decant. Adjust your water profile to 20 Ca 100 HCO3 and then brew a beer.
 
whattabrau said:
You have high bicarbonate water. I have pretty similar water with ~300mg/L HCO3.
Click to expand...

Frankly, we don't know what he has. As previously mentioned, the posted profile is impossible. And one way to make it possible would be for the true HCO3 number to be much lower. But at this point, every number has to be considered suspect.

I'd get a valid test before I started addressing a problem that may not exist.
 
VikeMan said:
Frankly, we don't know what he has. As previously mentioned, the posted profile is impossible. And one way to make it possible would be for the true HCO3 number to be much lower. But at this point, every number has to be considered suspect.

I'd get a valid test before I started addressing a problem that may not exist.
Click to expand...
If there's a significant amount of precipitate chalk, there's a good chance that the temporary alkalinity is roughly as indicated. (requires a kettle but not really accurate)

They could measure the water with the TDS meter before and after boiling, and see if there's a decent amount of reduction. (requires a TDS meter and not super-accurate)

They could titrate the water to see how much alkalinity is in there. (requires a pH meter and a bit of math, but quite accurate)

But, yea, agreed.
 
We live on the farm and have two wells. The one that services the house is very deep and extremely hard. It also has a lot of iron. It has to run through an iron filter and water softener before use.
The well I take from for brewing is an old shallow dug well that was taken out of service for the house years ago. The water is far cleaner and better drinking water.
It's totally possible I'm not doing something correctly with the at home test. I'm no chemist for sure. I am going to send in a sample and see if any of it jives.
 
jrsdws said:
We live on the farm and have two wells. The one that services the house is very deep and extremely hard. It also has a lot of iron. It has to run through an iron filter and water softener before use.
The well I take from for brewing is an old shallow dug well that was taken out of service for the house years ago. The water is far cleaner and better drinking water.
It's totally possible I'm not doing something correctly with the at home test. I'm no chemist for sure. I am going to send in a sample and see if any of it jives.
Click to expand...
Do you get *any* sediment if you boil a small sample of water? If yes, and you want to brew meanwhile, I'd still just try boiling the water first and brewing mostly like you did before -- emphasis on "I'd" as you might not want to and that's ok.

A pH meter would also really help. You can't get accurate results from a calculator alone, because even if your water profile is 100% correct, malt varies. That's not to say you can't get "good enough" results from a calculator alone, especially if you start with RO water. It's mostly a school-of-thought thing.
 
whattabrau said:
Do you get *any* sediment if you boil a small sample of water? If yes, and you want to brew meanwhile, I'd still just try boiling the water first and brewing mostly like you did before -- emphasis on "I'd" as you might not want to and that's ok.

A pH meter would also really help. You can't get accurate results from a calculator alone, because even if your water profile is 100% correct, malt varies. That's not to say you can't get "good enough" results from a calculator alone, especially if you start with RO water. It's mostly a school-of-thought thing.
Click to expand...
I would have to try to boil a sample to see if there is any sediment. I can also try boiling my water first. Not sure that can happen on every brew day but I can try it.
I do use a pH meter to test mash pH. My typical 5gal batch takes about 12-15ml of lactic acid to put my mash pH between 5.2 and 5.5.
 
jrsdws said:
I would have to try to boil a sample to see if there is any sediment. I can also try boiling my water first. Not sure that can happen on every brew day but I can try it.
Click to expand...

Even if it were practical for you to boil and decant your water every brew day, you'd still need a valid starting water profile in order to estimate what's left. Otherwise, all you know is that you reduced (by some unknown amount) both alkalinity and calcium, two things that have opposite effects on mash pH.

You mentioned getting a Ward Lab test. That's the way to go. I'm a firm believer in identifying problems before solving them. Radical, I know. :)
 
jrsdws said:
I would have to try to boil a sample to see if there is any sediment. I can also try boiling my water first. Not sure that can happen on every brew day but I can try it.
I do use a pH meter to test mash pH. My typical 5gal batch takes about 12-15ml of lactic acid to put my mash pH between 5.2 and 5.5.
Click to expand...
Is that 80% or 88% lactic acid and no-sparge? If yes, it's a good bet that your water indeed has 300+mg/L bicarbonate.

It does add quite a lot of lactate. Are you sure it's not the excessive lactate that's muting the flavors? Admittedly, I've never used that much lactic acid, because I've just believed the literature on the flavor threshold, e.g.: https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lactate_Taste_Threshold_experiment

Do try measuring the kettle pH too. That's the number that gives an indication of the beer flavor. The mash pH is important only for the mashing process ... which admittedly influences the beer flavor quite a bit too. Usually my kettle pH is 5.6-5.8 at the beginning of the boil, and for most ales I try to drop it to around 5.2 for the final 10min. The higher pH in the beginning gives better hop utilization (and if too high, browning), and the lower pH at the end helps with protein coagulation. You can literally see the effect of the pH drop in the boiling wort when floaty-whispy bits appear. The acid itself of course influences the beer flavor. If you are sparging and do not sufficiently acidify alkaline sparge water, your kettle pH will be completely out of wonk.
 
Pure speculation, and definitely not to discourage further testing, but the fact that this is well water makes me wonder if the apparent ion imbalance might be due to unreported/untested iron.
 
whattabrau said:
Is that 80% or 88% lactic acid and no-sparge? If yes, it's a good bet that your water indeed has 300+mg/L bicarbonate.

It does add quite a lot of lactate. Are you sure it's not the excessive lactate that's muting the flavors? Admittedly, I've never used that much lactic acid, because I've just believed the literature on the flavor threshold, e.g.: https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lactate_Taste_Threshold_experiment

Do try measuring the kettle pH too. That's the number that gives an indication of the beer flavor. The mash pH is important only for the mashing process ... which admittedly influences the beer flavor quite a bit too. Usually my kettle pH is 5.6-5.8 at the beginning of the boil, and for most ales I try to drop it to around 5.2 for the final 10min. The higher pH in the beginning gives better hop utilization (and if too high, browning), and the lower pH at the end helps with protein coagulation. You can literally see the effect of the pH drop in the boiling wort when floaty-whispy bits appear. The acid itself of course influences the beer flavor. If you are sparging and do not sufficiently acidify alkaline sparge water, your kettle pH will be completely out of wonk.
Click to expand...
88% lactid acid no sparge.
I'm not sure if it's muting the hop flavors.....hence my post for adivce. LOL
I have not checked pH after hitting my mash pH goal but I will certainly try it!

VikeMan said:
Pure speculation, and definitely not to discourage further testing, but the fact that this is well water makes me wonder if the apparent ion imbalance might be due to unreported/untested iron.
Click to expand...
It is well known that the ground water in our area contains a fair amount of iron....especially in the deeper aquifer.
 
jrsdws said:
88% lactid acid no sparge.
I'm not sure if it's muting the hop flavors.....hence my post for adivce. LOL
I have not checked pH after hitting my mash pH goal but I will certainly try it!
Click to expand...
Ok the numbers seem correct enough so that I'd circle back to my original post: treat the water by boiling and decanting, adjust the water profile to 20Ca/100HCO3 (yes that's *a guess*, actually maybe go with at least 120HCO3), add lactic acid appropriately, check the kettle pH, and try to push it down if it's high. I'd try to use another acid besides lactic for the kettle pH. Phosphoric acid is pretty universally usable. Some beer styles might benefit from the crisper-tasting citric acid, which -- surprise -- tastes like citrus, as you can determine yourself by dissolving a fair bit in water and dipping your finger in it and then on your tongue. If I use citric acid, I usually go with about 2-4g at 10min in the boil.

If you want to "scientific" about it, do the above as a total of three experiments: one each and then both. Or just do both and if it's good enough, then it's good enough.

Going further, you probably have to figure out some convenient way to reduce the alkalinity. I boiled my water for pale beers for years, but this year I got tired of it and started using hydrochloric acid, but I can do it easily, because my water has almost no chloride. Your best bet might be to dilute with RO, if you have easy access to RO. Here, I'd wait for the Ward Labs numbers first.

Good luck!
 
I'll be brewing Sunday and I don't mind running a batch with distilled or RO. We're going to town tomorrow. This is a small 3gal batch anyway.
I will send my water out first of next week and see what I'm really working with.
I think I have hydrochloric acid....and I think I have granular citric acid. I'll check on both.
Maybe brewing a batch from a blank palate and building my water chemistry from that will provide good information.
 
Ok...so if I brew with distilled, here are what my additions look like according to BeerSmith:

4.50gal distilled
0.68g chalk
1.69g baking soda
2.74g gypsum
3.21g calcium chloride
4.20g epsom salt

That leaves me with the following from Palmers calculator:

Final Calcium = 111ppm
Final Magnesium = 24ppm
Final TA = 113ppm
Final Sulfate = 187ppm
Final Chloride = 91ppm
Final Sodium = 27ppm
Final Residual Alkalinity as CaCO3 = 19ppm

Final sulfate to chloride ratio = 2:1
Estimated SRM range 5-11

What say you smarter guys than me? Do it?
 
It usually doesn't make sense to add Chalk and/or Baking Soda unless you need to increase alkalinity. Based on the SRM, I'm assuming this isn't for a stout or anything with a lot of caramel/roasted grains. So chalk/baking soda are probably not needed/useful.

Slide 9 of this presentation shows one approach to building from distilled water.
 
jrsdws said:
0.68g chalk
1.69g baking soda
Click to expand...
What style are you brewing? My biggest issue with the auto generation tools is they end up throwing in a complex array of salts to hit meaningless values in the selected water profile. I don't think BeerSmith calculates additions to raise mash pH, so I suspect the Chalk and Baking Soda additions are just there to hit a Bicarbonate value. Unless you are brewing a dark beer and you need to raise the mash pH, don't add Baking Soda. Also, don't add Chalk (just click the "Exclude Chalk" option...chalk does not readily dissolve in the mash).

A lot of people that brew with RO do not add any Magnesium. 4.2 grams of Epsom Salt to hit 24 ppm of Magnesium seems like a lot.
 
jrsdws said:
Sorry this is for an American Pale Ale around 9.5-10srm
Click to expand...

Personally, for an APA built from distilled, I would build to about 80 ppm calcium by adding Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, with a roughly 2:1 ratio of Sulfate to Chloride. And acid as needed (if needed) to hit your target mash pH. Two salts and (maybe) an acid addition.
 
VikeMan said:
Personally, for an APA built from distilled, I would build to about 80 ppm calcium by adding Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, with a roughly 2:1 ratio of Sulfate to Chloride. And acid as needed (if needed) to hit your target mash pH. Two salts and (maybe) an acid addition.
Click to expand...
So following this advice:

Calcium chloride = 2.00g
Gypsum = 3.50g

Final Calcium = 80ppm
Final Sulfate = 115ppm
Final Chloride = 57ppm
Final sulfate to chloride ratio = 2:1 (115/57=2.01)
 

Similar threads

C
Artesian well suitability
Replies
3
Views
596
mabrungard
mabrungard
B
SVBS and hop pellets
Replies
5
Views
488
stealthfixr
S
D
Birch sap hop water
Replies
0
Views
186
divrack
D
A
Problems Keeping O2 out of NEIPA (I think)
Replies
13
Views
653
Dog House Brew
Dog House Brew
Zippy123
Reality check on Water Chemistry
Replies
27
Views
2K
WortMonger
WortMonger
BrewSwag 300

Latest posts

Back
Top