Water chemistry Primer questions/advice

[erockomania]

Dude, you rock. I was unsure where a few styles fell in the op. Thank you!

Hefeweizen: Baseline

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:


Hefeweizen: For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3% (you can make great Hefe with soft water too).

Porter: For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

Light Ale: For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

IPA: For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.



If you follow just the baseline without any of the deviations you won't make a 'dumper'. That's the whole idea behind the primer. Should get you a decent beer whatever the style.

 

[Hermit]

It was asked earlier if anyone has tried this yet. I guess other than AJ that is.

Just drinking my first brew using these guide lines now. Let me start with my first batch of the brewing season. My basement was just getting cold enough that I could brew some low gravity beers and keep them below 70F during fermentation. I brewed Orfy's mild. It has always been well received. I made one change to what I had done before. I decided after reading here that since it was a 'dark beer' that I wouldn't bother using 3 gallons RO water cut with 2 gallons tap. I can taste a little harshness that wasn't in the previous batches I had brewed. Not a lot, but it is there.

I wanted to try some other styles so my first using just RO with a 1 tsp calcium chloride was a Scottish 70 from "Brewing Classic Styles". (I know I should have done another mild for comparison, but I just wanted to do something else) It was supposed to be a 60 but my efficiency was a 'tad high'. I can live with that I guess. I balanced the hop bitterness to be 'extra malty'. I use first wort hopping so that should add about 10% back to the IBU rating.

I'm pleased with the results. Not a great beer, but it was not meant to be either. Just a very easy drinking beer with no real overt hop bitterness or harshness of any type.

Some of the best food I ever remember having was at a Chinese place where I used to live. First time there I realized the flavor levels were low by most standards but I found the more delicate flavoring interesting and to my more to liking somehow. I find this brew to be kind of along those lines. Easy drinking with nothing negative in the flavor. There is something to be said for that. I'll have to run it past some more discriminating pallets yet but I'm pleased with the results so far.

 

[funkswing]

I use first wort hopping so that should add about 10% back to the IBU rating.

Now that's a fun debate........I personally think you should lower the IBU's by 10-30%, based on IBU "perception" when calculating FWH additions. Opposed to "actual" IBU's in the beer (HPLC analysis of sample).

I wanted to try some other styles so my first using just RO with a 1 tsp calcium chloride

There's your problem right there. DOn't use 100% RO water with just a small dose of CaCl2. The mineral profile for your beer is going to be waaaaaay off (not enough minerals) from what it should be (and way off from any beer that is brewed).

The original post is about diluting with RO water IF your tap water is hard. If you have soft city water then you don't have to use RO water at all, and you can add salts/minerals to boost them for a desired effect (like increasing sulfates to increase bitterness perception, or increasing chlorides to accentuate the malt character).

 

[Hermit]

Now that's a fun debate........I personally think you should lower the IBU's by 10-30%, based on IBU "perception" when calculating FWH additions. Opposed to "actual" IBU's in the beer (HPLC analysis of sample).


There's your problem right there. DOn't use 100% RO water with just a small dose of CaCl2. The mineral profile for your beer is going to be waaaaaay off (not enough minerals) from what it should be (and way off from any beer that is brewed).

The original post is about diluting with RO water IF your tap water is hard. If you have soft city water then you don't have to use RO water at all, and you can add salts/minerals to boost them for a desired effect (like increasing sulfates to increase bitterness perception, or increasing chlorides to accentuate the malt character).

I like the beer. So exactly what problem are you talking about?

From the original post:

The following recommendations apply to “soft” water. Here we will define soft as meaning RO or distilled water or any water whose lab report indicates alkalinity less than 35 (ppm as CaCO3 – all other numbers to follow mg/L), sulfate less than 20 (as sulfate – Ward Labs reports as sulfur so multiply the SO4-S number by 3 to get as sulfate), chloride less than 20, sodium less than 20, calcium less than 20 and magnesium less than 20. If your water has numbers higher than these, dilute it with RO or DI water.

 

[funkswing]

So exactly what problem are you talking about?

Not a great beer

using just RO with a 1 tsp calcium chloride

Can't you see where I thought you were using 100% RO water? Then you said the beer wasn't great and tried to compare it to Chinese food. That was the problem, or so I thought.

But the extremely large text proves that I was wrong and that you need no help/advice on water chemistry for brewing. We all know why you call yourself Hermit now, thanks.

 

[Hermit]

I'm pleased with the results. Not a great beer, but it was not meant to be either. Just a very easy drinking beer with no real overt hop bitterness or harshness of any type.

Then you said the beer wasn't great

I'm not given to superlatives like some/most on this forum. I've literally seen people saying things like, "This is a great beer, it will be my new house beer" minutes after someone posted a recipe. No way they went grain to glass in under an hour and have any real knowledge of what the beer tastes like.

 

[Hermit]

The sticky doesn't say "for lager add CaCl2 to the softest water you can get" because I'm not ready to conclude that does make the best lager at this point though it looks as if I might come to that conclusion eventually.

I have been using RO water with a bit of tap water (pretty nominal stuff) and reducing the tap water over time. The beers just seem to be getting smoother and smoother and richer in flavor but I have not done 100% RO water yet. I do add enough CaCl2 to get to about 25 ppm or so whatever the dilution.

What "soft" means here seems to depend on the mood my RO system is in. I'm almost serious but I really think it has to do with temperature. My feed water seldom exhibits TDS above 160 and the permeate usually runs 3-4 but can read as low as 0 (I don't believe it - it's instrument noise/quantization) or as high as 5 i.e. pretty soft.

I know from anecdotal data that my reservoir water is fairly hard. It gets softer in the spring when you get high run off, but just like salt levels in the ocean, it gets more concentrated during the summer months. ( I used to do appliance repair. I started to notice in the spring that we would get more calls about leaking washing machines. What was happening is they would over suds and spill out the over flow tube) They don't publish the mineral content, just a once yearly contaminate report. I'm not going to pay for water analysis on a moving target. Like I said above though, I could tell the difference in flavor going from a 3/2 ratio to all tap water. Orfy's mild has a lot of crystal 60 in it. That should cover quite a few sins in the water. The water is pretty flavorless but you could see a blue/green tinge to it in the bath tub when you had a large quantity against a white background. That is what made me decide to go with an RO system since my wife drinks a lot of water.

 

[DungeonBeast]

I have calculated my tap water RA to be about 105. My Calcium is around 40 ppm. When i brew dark beers i don't dilute with RO or add any salts (my mash pH is is usually in range and i have ample Ca. For amber beers, I dilute at 50% RO and increase Ca with CaCl2 in small amounts. For Pale beers, I dilute my mash water 75% for proper pH and add CaCl2 to get my Ca in range... For hoppy beers, I will add some Gypsum to get the So4 in balance. To me, it is more important to add salts when you have to dilute your mash water more than 50%. Im actually glad that my water is hard. It makes it easier to brew all styles IMO.

 

[smizak]

aj or remilard,

What is your opinion on water to be used for a Dortmunder Export?

I'm not a hugely experienced lager brewer, but I have an appreciation of both of your approaches to light lagers, as I'm sensitive to too much sulfate bitterness in those beers.

How much is "too" much mineral content for a Dort? I currently use a modified version of Palmer's spreadsheet and ignore the RA stuff for the most part and just focus on the ion concentration. My water is pretty moderate:

40ppm Ca
24ppm SO4
9ppm Mg
85ppm alkalinity as CO3
10ppm Na
17ppm Cl

I've contemplated adding gypsum and CaCl to get to around 100ppm Ca, SO4 and Cl. My RA according to the sheet is around zero.

This beer is for my brother who loves GLBC's Dortmunder. IMO, it does have a crisp hop character and a minerally, slightly muted malt profile, which may be recipe or water treatment.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm overseas at the moment but here's an old synthesis for Dortmund that I came up with years ago. It is based on a profile which, unlike most, actually electrically balances at reasonable pH. As you can see it is very alkaline and has lots of other mineral content as well. That's why Export tastes almost salty. Export is definitely an exception when it comes to lagers. You can't brew an Export with soft water and have it come out anything like an export. I don't particularly care for that and so have never brewed one.

Given the huge residual alkalinity the brewers of Dortmund must do something to get mash pH into the correct range. They would either have to soften the water or add lots and lots of sauermalz. Given that if I were trying to do an Export I would probably just skip the calcium carbonate addition as it is pointless to go to the trouble to put it in only to take it back out again. Note that the synthesis requires carbon dioxide - that is there to dissolve the chalk and is the only way to properly increase water alkalinity as it is the way nature does it. The facts that the balancing pH for the profile are reasonable and that CO2 is used to dissolve the chalk are responsible for the ability to match this priofile so closely by adding salts (and CO2) to deionized water.


29 October 1997
Page 236
K.11 Dortmund 2
Target City: Dortmund2 Base Water: Deionized
Balancing pH 8.0161 is within acceptable bounds
Net charge (imbalance) at this pH: 0.0000 mEq/L
SALTS ADDED FOR THIS SYNTHESIS:
Sodium Chloride : 51.11 mg/L
Calcium Sulfate Dihydrate : 324.78 mg/L
Calcium Chloride Dihydrate : 143.09 mg/L
Magnesium Sulfate Heptahydrate : 253.53 mg/L
Calcium Carbonate : 338.18 mg/L
Magnesium Carbonate : 0.00 mg/L
Sodium Bicarbonate : 182.31 mg/L
Carbonic Acid : 6.94 mEq/L
COMPARISON OF TARGET AND SYNTHESIS:
Dortmund2
pH : 8.02 8.02
f1 : 0.0178 0.0178
f2 : 0.9744 0.9744
f3 : 0.0078 0.0078
Ionic Strength : 27.7725 27.7750
pfm : 0.0725 0.0725
TARGET SYNTHESIS pRatio Pct Err
Carbonates* : 9.0164 9.0169 mM/L +0.0000 +0.01%
Calcium* : 250.00 250.04 mg/L +0.0001 +0.01%
Carbonic : 9.98 9.98 mg/L +0.0000 +0.01%
Bicarbonate : 536.16 536.19 mg/L +0.0000 +0.01%
Carbonate : 4.22 4.22 mg/K +0.0000 +0.01%
Alkalinity (as CaCO3): 444.65 444.68 mg/L
Chloride* : 100.00 100.01 mg/L +0.0000 +0.01%
Magnesium* : 25.00 25.00 mg/L +0.0000 +0.00%
Sodium* : 70.00 70.00 mg/L +0.0000 +0.00%
Sulfate* : 280.00 280.02 mg/L +0.0000 +0.01%
Nitrate : 0.00 0.00 mg/L
RMS Log Error (Items with *): 0.00003 Corresponding % 0.0079
pHs : 6.48 6.47
Saturated WRT CaCO3? : Yes Yes
Langelier Index : 1.54 1.54 SI < 0 ~ Corrosion; SI > 0 ~ Occlusion
Ryznar Index : 4.93 4.93 RI < 6 ~ Occlusion; RI > 7 ~ Corrosion
pHe : 9.21 9.21
Saturated WRT CO2? : Yes Yes
CO2 Equilibrium Index: 1.20 1.20 EI < 0 ~ Gains CO2; EI > 0 ~ Loses CO2
Residual Alkalinity : 251.73 251.73 mg/L as CaCO3

 

[smizak]

Thanx AJ

Wow. The amount of bicarbonate in that target water is amazing. I just plugged those numbers into my spreadsheet, I'd need to add almost 30 grams of brewing salts to get those concentrations.

I'm less interested in creating a "historic" brewing water than making a beer that is tasty and to-style. I'll probably just go with my approach and compromise between mash ph/RA and authentic ion concentrations. I don't want the beer harsh, but I'd like a little bit of that mineral character so I'll be conservative.

 

[ajdelange]

Keep in mind that just because that profile came labeled "Dortmund" and that it balances electrically (which is noteworthy) doesn't mean that it is indeed anything like Dortmund's actual water no does it tell us anything about how the Dortmund braumeisters might treat it.

 

[smizak]

Agreed. Again, thanks for your input.

 

[optimatored]

AJ,

Alright, so this thread might change what I have been doing... although my beers come out tasting well. I am in the process getting my water in order. I generally use 100-percent distilled and build it up... i posted in the AG section so apologies there, but need some advice. Below is what I plan on doing as for as adjustments.

I followed the EZ_Water SS and used Dublin as my guideline... what I fail to understand is how adding these salts could be detrimental to a beer, if added accordingly. Thank you, please advise!

(For a Coffee/Stout)
Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.25 / 3
Dilution Rate: 100%
Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 7.9 / 0
CaSO4: 0.3 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 3.5 / 0
NaHCO3: 3.3 / 0
NaCl: 2.6 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0
Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 201 / 118
Mg: 20 / 12
Na: 120 / 70
Cl: 98 / 57
SO4: 95 / 56
CaCO3: 364 / 213
RA (mash only): 208 (22 to 27 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.03 (Balanced)

 

[Hermit]

what I fail to understand is how adding these salts could be detrimental to a beer, if added accordingly.

Many styles came into being because they were limited by the water available. It doesn't mean the water was optimal, but the brewers did the best they could with what they had available. Indeed as people learned to manipulate the water, they did.

I've been brewing using the minimalistic approach listed in the first post and it has worked well for me. I'm still pretty new to brewing but have decided to simply try and eliminate negatives from my brews. I think I have done well in that regard. I don't like bitterness so the simple Calcium Chloride addition has worked well for me with my RO water. Remember, this was only meant to be a starting point. By all means experiment with differing water make up until you come up with what you feel gives you the optimum beer to your taste. OK, I'm not AJ... but....

 

[optimatored]

Many styles came into being because they were limited by the water available. It doesn't mean the water was optimal, but the brewers did the best they could with what they had available. Indeed as people learned to manipulate the water, they did.

I've been brewing using the minimalistic approach listed in the first post and it has worked well for me. I'm still pretty new to brewing but have decided to simply try and eliminate negatives from my brews. I think I have done well in that regard. I don't like bitterness so the simple Calcium Chloride addition has worked well for me with my RO water. Remember, this was only meant to be a starting point. By all means experiment with differing water make up until you come up with what you feel gives you the optimum beer to your taste. OK, I'm not AJ... but....

I appreciate the input... water chem is not my study... but I am trying to learn.

 

[ajdelange]

The only things that are definitely going to be detrimental are the bicarbonate and carbonate. If the specified amounts were added to 4.25 gal of water it would take about 11.6 mEq/L acid equivalent to 15 mL hardware store strength (28 Be) acid for 4.25 gal to move the water alone to pH 5.4 which is a reasonable mash pH. As it is unlikely that the dark malts would be able to supply this much acid unless inordinate quantities were used mash pH is probably going to be too high. There are several benefits attached to lower pH and these will be lost. As the malts will be unable to supply the necessary acid most of the chalk will not dissolve. Some of this somehow carries over to the beer (even though it is insoluble) and the result is, I am told by those who have tried these huge chalk additions, beers that taste chalky or like alkaselzer.

Note that the alkalinity and RA numbers that you have shown only apply if enough acid (other than carbonic) is supplied to bring the pH of the water plus carbonate mix to 8.3. If that is done the anion of that acid must be accounted for. Using hydrochloric acid for this purpose the chloride ion content would be 272 mg/L.

Dublin water does not have an RA as high as 200.

The bicarbonate and carbonate should be left out of the water but some carbonate should be readily available whenever dark beer is being brewed. Mash pH should be checked with a meter and if it is too low some carbonate (certainly less than 8 grams!) should be added to the mash to bring the pH up to about 5.3 - 5.4. This is the only time at which carbonate should be added to mash or brewing water unless one is trying to do a detailed emulation of a particular water in which case the approximations in the spreadsheet you used render it unsuitable for calculation of the amount to be added. Such emulations are seldom justified and are definitely to be considered "advanced".

Sulfate is highish (though certainly beers with higher sulfate levels have been brewed) and this may be objectionable to some drinkers.

The high level of sodium is something which one could live with if his brewing water source contained such a high level but it is hardly something that one would try to establish unless one were trying to do a beer with a salty profile (e.g. Export).

Of the commonly used salts calcium chloride is the one that is accepted by all as being beneficial. I note there is none of that being used here. The other salts are pretty much neutral. There seems to be a growing school of thought that the softest waters make the best beers. If you are a subscriber to that way of thinking then all the minerals are detrimental in the sense that the water is less soft after their addition that it would be without.

My advice here would be the same as is in the Sticky: Tsp CaCl2, Tsp CaSO4 (if you like hops) check mash pH (don't rely on strips) and add CaCO3 to mash as required to get pH up to around 5.3 if it falls too low. If my experience and that of others is indicative you shouldn't need any CaCO3.

 

[ajdelange]

The only things that are definitely going to be detrimental are the bicarbonate and carbonate. If the specified amounts were added to 4.25 gal of water it would take about 11.6 mEq/L acid equivalent to 15 mL hardware store strength (28 Be) acid for 4.25 gal to move the water alone to pH 5.4 which is a reasonable mash pH. As it is unlikely that the dark malts would be able to supply this much acid unless inordinate quantities were used mash pH is probably going to be too high. There are several benefits attached to lower pH and these will be lost. As the malts will be unable to supply the necessary acid most of the chalk will not dissolve. Some of this somehow carries over to the beer (even though it is insoluble) and the result is, I am told by those who have tried these huge chalk additions, beers that taste chalky or like alkaselzer.

Note that the alkalinity and RA numbers that you have shown only apply if enough acid (other than carbonic) is supplied to bring the pH of the water plus carbonate mix to 8.3. If that is done the anion of that acid must be accounted for. Using hydrochloric acid for this purpose the chloride ion content would be 272 mg/L.

Dublin water does not have an RA as high as 200.

The bicarbonate and carbonate should be left out of the water but some carbonate should be readily available whenever dark beer is being brewed. Mash pH should be checked with a meter and if it is too low some carbonate (certainly less than 8 grams!) should be added to the mash to bring the pH up to about 5.3 - 5.4. This is the only time at which carbonate should be added to mash or brewing water unless one is trying to do a detailed emulation of a particular water in which case the approximations in the spreadsheet you used render it unsuitable for calculation of the amount to be added. Such emulations are seldom justified and are definitely to be considered "advanced".

Sulfate is highish (though certainly beers with higher sulfate levels have been brewed) and this may be objectionable to some drinkers.

The high level of sodium is something which one could live with if his brewing water source contained such a high level but it is hardly something that one would try to establish unless one were trying to do a beer with a salty profile (e.g. Export).

Of the commonly used salts calcium chloride is the one that is accepted by all as being beneficial. I note there is none of that being used here. The other salts are pretty much neutral. There seems to be a growing school of thought that the softest waters make the best beers. If you are a subscriber to that way of thinking then all the minerals are detrimental in the sense that the water is less soft after their addition that it would be without.

 

[optimatored]

The only things that are definitely going to be detrimental are the bicarbonate and carbonate. If the specified amounts were added to 4.25 gal of water it would take about 11.6 mEq/L acid equivalent to 15 mL hardware store strength (28 Be) acid for 4.25 gal to move the water alone to pH 5.4 which is a reasonable mash pH. As it is unlikely that the dark malts would be able to supply this much acid unless inordinate quantities were used mash pH is probably going to be too high. There are several benefits attached to lower pH and these will be lost. As the malts will be unable to supply the necessary acid most of the chalk will not dissolve. Some of this somehow carries over to the beer (even though it is insoluble) and the result is, I am told by those who have tried these huge chalk additions, beers that taste chalky or like alkaselzer.

Note that the alkalinity and RA numbers that you have shown only apply if enough acid (other than carbonic) is supplied to bring the pH of the water plus carbonate mix to 8.3. If that is done the anion of that acid must be accounted for. Using hydrochloric acid for this purpose the chloride ion content would be 272 mg/L.

Dublin water does not have an RA as high as 200.

The bicarbonate and carbonate should be left out of the water but some carbonate should be readily available whenever dark beer is being brewed. Mash pH should be checked with a meter and if it is too low some carbonate (certainly less than 8 grams!) should be added to the mash to bring the pH up to about 5.3 - 5.4. This is the only time at which carbonate should be added to mash or brewing water unless one is trying to do a detailed emulation of a particular water in which case the approximations in the spreadsheet you used render it unsuitable for calculation of the amount to be added. Such emulations are seldom justified and are definitely to be considered "advanced".

Sulfate is highish (though certainly beers with higher sulfate levels have been brewed) and this may be objectionable to some drinkers.

The high level of sodium is something which one could live with if his brewing water source contained such a high level but it is hardly something that one would try to establish unless one were trying to do a beer with a salty profile (e.g. Export).

Of the commonly used salts calcium chloride is the one that is accepted by all as being beneficial. I note there is none of that being used here. The other salts are pretty much neutral. There seems to be a growing school of thought that the softest waters make the best beers. If you are a subscriber to that way of thinking then all the minerals are detrimental in the sense that the water is less soft after their addition that it would be without.

Alright, but if the water I am using has no minerals in in at all (distilled), why would it be detrimental to use CaCO3? I understand that optimal mash pH is at 5.2, so you are saying that based on my water profile this will not happen. So I should totally ignore RA and the spreadsheet? I only have pH strips and a meter is not in the budget... I am also stubborn so I might brew with my profile anyway and let y'all know how it turns out.

 

[ajdelange]

I am saying that no stout has ever been brewed with water as alkaline as that which would result from the addition of this much CaCO3 (except by homebrewers following the same advice you propose to take) or, put another way, none of the well known brewing cities have water that alkaline. If they did no one would locate a brewery there.

From another perspective: if you were to make a mash with totally deionized water it will come to some pH. For a base malt that will be 5.75 - 5.8. With acid malts (dark crystal, roast) it will be lower. In my experiments and brewing I find that 10% roast barley produces something around 5.5 whereas 30% gives me 5.2. If I added chalk to the water mash pH would be appreciably higher and I don't want higher. In fact I want lower in my brewing where I use 10% roast barley but live with 5.5 and the result is a very good (IMO) stout. If I added some chalk to the water in order to be authentic (i.e. to represent Dublin water) the pH would go up but if I added reasonable amounts it would not be by that much - say to 5.6 which would still be OK but inching up. If I added as much as you propose the result would be a pasty, chalky, alkaselzer beer - flat and dull. At least that's what people who have followed programs like the one you are suggesting have reported to me.

You need to understand that the EZ and Palmer spreadsheets do not model carbonate additions correctly. To do so they would have to be appreciably more complicated than they are. IOW the results of the addition you propose will not be Ca = 201 nor alkalinity = 364. If you dump all that chalk into 4.25 gal of water it will not dissolve. If you allow it to settle and come to equilibrium you will wind up with hardness and alkalinity both about 50 ppm and both as CaCO3. This would not be an unreasonable level but would leave most of the chalk on the bottom of the HLT and the question would be "Why did I put it in in the first place?" If you stir it all up and mash with the suspension or add it all to the mash that is when you will realize all the negative effects.

You can certainly be stubborn if you wish and it might be a good learning experience for you. But first you might want to read through some of the posts in this thread focusing on other peoples' experiences.

I understand that the bucks for a pH meter may not be available so soon after Xmas but I strongly encourage brewers to make this investment as soon as they can. If you had a pH meter to hand you would only add chalk to beer if it were really necessary, would only use 5.2 once and would be secure in the knowledge that mash pH was under control. With meters available for under $100 they are a lot more accessible to homebrewers than they used to be.

 

[optimatored]

I am saying that no stout has ever been brewed with water as alkaline as that which would result from the addition of this much CaCO3 (except by homebrewers following the same advice you propose to take) or, put another way, none of the well known brewing cities have water that alkaline. If they did no one would locate a brewery there.

From another perspective: if you were to make a mash with totally deionized water it will come to some pH. For a base malt that will be 5.75 - 5.8. With acid malts (dark crystal, roast) it will be lower. In my experiments and brewing I find that 10% roast barley produces something around 5.5 whereas 30% gives me 5.2. If I added chalk to the water mash pH would be appreciably higher and I don't want higher. In fact I want lower in my brewing where I use 10% roast barley but live with 5.5 and the result is a very good (IMO) stout. If I added some chalk to the water in order to be authentic (i.e. to represent Dublin water) the pH would go up but if I added reasonable amounts it would not be by that much - say to 5.6 which would still be OK but inching up. If I added as much as you propose the result would be a pasty, chalky, alkaselzer beer - flat and dull. At least that's what people who have followed programs like the one you are suggesting have reported to me.

You need to understand that the EZ and Palmer spreadsheets do not model carbonate additions correctly. To do so they would have to be appreciably more complicated than they are. IOW the results of the addition you propose will not be Ca = 201 nor alkalinity = 364. If you dump all that chalk into 4.25 gal of water it will not dissolve. If you allow it to settle and come to equilibrium you will wind up with hardness and alkalinity both about 50 ppm and both as CaCO3. This would not be an unreasonable level but would leave most of the chalk on the bottom of the HLT and the question would be "Why did I put it in in the first place?" If you stir it all up and mash with the suspension or add it all to the mash that is when you will realize all the negative effects.

You can certainly be stubborn if you wish and it might be a good learning experience for you. But first you might want to read through some of the posts in this thread focusing on other peoples' experiences.

I understand that the bucks for a pH meter may not be available so soon after Xmas but I strongly encourage brewers to make this investment as soon as they can. If you had a pH meter to hand you would only add chalk to beer if it were really necessary, would only use 5.2 once and would be secure in the knowledge that mash pH was under control. With meters available for under $100 they are a lot more accessible to homebrewers than they used to be.

This makes good sense now. There is a new version of the EZ spreadsheet I am using... and after reading through many more posts, I do not plan on adding any chalk and worrying more on pH and not color. Thanks AJ

 

[RonRock]

Wow a lot to digest in this thread.

I finally ordered my PH meter today, then read all 10 pages.

My next brew will be the best ever, I think I'll make it my house brew. LOL

 

[djt17]

Wow a lot to digest in this thread.

I finally ordered my PH meter today, then read all 10 pages.

My next brew will be the best ever, I think I'll make it my house brew. LOL

+1, my brews have become MUCH better since following the advice of ajdelange. Specifically; not adding minerals just to get to certain profiles.

 

[EvilBrewer]

+1, my brews have become MUCH better since following the advice of ajdelange. Specifically; not adding minerals just to get to certain profiles.

Same here. For anyone reading this post looking for answers on how to get a better beer: I tried just about everything within reason and was still not getting where I wanted. My beers were good in most respects but they just didn't have that "wow" factor. I gave them to several people to try, including the owners of my LHBS. They mostly said it tasted fine and couldn't really offer any constructive advice. Very frustrating. I spent almost a year tweaking one little thing each batch (trying to mimic water profiles from different geographies using spreadsheets, mostly).

Long story short, I used the primer from the first post in this thread, and made sure to keep my pH within 5.2-5.3 range during my mash...and it has been the best beer I've ever brewed. Hands down.

 

[Hermit]

Same here. For anyone reading this post looking for answers on how to get a better beer: I tried just about everything within reason and was still not getting where I wanted. My beers were good in most respects but they just didn't have that "wow" factor. I gave them to several people to try, including the owners of my LHBS. They mostly said it tasted fine and couldn't really offer any constructive advice. Very frustrating. I spent almost a year tweaking one little thing each batch (trying to mimic water profiles from different geographies using spreadsheets, mostly).

Long story short, I used the primer from the first post in this thread, and made sure to keep my pH within 5.2-5.3 range during my mash...and it has been the best beer I've ever brewed. Hands down.

Yeah. Problem there are so many things to tweak with water and I don't think I have ever seen anyone try to do a comprehensive tabulation of what each did, let alone what they do in varying combinations. I think that led many of us to take simplistic, yet wrong, approaches like profiles based on beer color only or 'historical' water profiles. That only made matters more confusing/worse. In reality this is like a SMASH for water.

 

[SC_Ryan]

I'm proud to report that I just took a leap of faith and followed the primer instructions for the "porter/stout" for my dark brown ale. It is a 24 SRM beer with over a pound and a half of roasted malt. (10 gallon batch) I actually mixed gypsum and cal chlor 50/50 because it's an "American Brown" but I followed the 1tsp per 5 gallon to the t adding absolutely no carbonate. I was nervous because of the numbers I was getting from the spread sheets but I'm happy to report that testing my pH 10 minutes into the mash.... Exactly 5.2. Booya! Beer time!

:cheers:

 

[RonRock]

I need a little help with my water. Here it is,


Ward Labs Report:

Sodium, Na 35
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 102
Magnesium, Mg 34
Total Hardness, CaCO3 397
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.9 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 24
Chloride, Cl 1
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 433
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 355


So in an effort to get this water down to a brewing water I went to EZ Water. Punched in the numbers, and reduced with RO water by 75%. Also added'

Lactic Acid (ml): 2



Here is what I came up with:


Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 26 / 26
Mg: 9 / 9
Na: 9 / 9
Cl: 0 / 0
SO4: 18 / 18
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.01 / 0.01

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 29
RA: 6
Estimated pH: #DIV/0!


This brings all levels down to a soft water except Calcium which is at 26ppm. So is this a good starting point? The first step in prepairing water with this method is to add CalciumChloride. Since my water is already a bit high in Calcium I'm not sure.

Or am I missing the boat with my water and should approach this a different way than 75% dilution and addition of Lactic Acid?

 

[ajdelange]

Just the 3:1 dilution would get your alkalinity down to 90 ppm and RA down to 67. You don't say what volume you are treating or what the starting pH is but assuming the former is 5 gal and the latter 7.0 adding 2 mL of 88% lactic acid would drop the pH to 6.68, but the alkalinity and RA don't change much (91 and 68) because you added more lactate ion (which is somewhat less alkaline than bicarbonate ion) than you reduced highly alkaline bicarbonate ion. To reduce alkalinity and RA you would need a stronger acid than lactic e.g. hydrochloric or sulfuric.

Assuming, again, a 5 gal batch and assuming that you are using 7 pounds of grain 1% of that would be .01*7*454 = 32 grams sauermalz and assuming that is 2% lactic acid that would be equivalent to 0.64 grams of lactic acid for each 0.1 pH unit drop according to the 1% per 0.1 pH rule of thumb. Two mL of 88% acid corresponds to 2.1 grams of lactic acid so you might expect a drop of about 0.3 pH units. So yes, this seems reasonable and you don't have to supplement calcium. You have effectively no chloride, however, and chloride is generally thought to have a beneficial effect. So you might want to dilute further (5 or 6 to 1) and add some calcium chloride. This would also lower the RA somewhat.

 

[RonRock]

Thanks AJ, I did not think the volume would matter. But for the EZ Water I had to put in a volume. I just went with 10 gallons as a baseline. I also did not have a PH because I did not have a recipe to begin with. I was just trying to get a base water as a point to begin. And I used EZ Water as an easy to do my calculations.

 

[ajdelange]

In terms of what the acid does to the water (i.e. how much 2 mL lactic acid changes its pH and alkalinity if it is strong acid) the volume and initial pH do matter very much. OTOH the pH drop per percent sauermalz depends only on the weight of main grist which is, of course, related to the amount of water.

You don't really need a spreadsheet to calculate the effects of dilution. Part of the goal WRT to this primer is to free brewers from the necessity of using spreadsheets which, as this particular example shows, can be quite deceptive with respect to the actual alkalinity and pH calculated when weak acids are added to water. For dilutions with RO (DI water) just divide by the dilution ratio. If the calcium is 355 and the dilution 9:1 the calcium is 35.5. This even works for alkalinity (approximately and pH must be less than 8.5 or so).

 

[SC_Ryan]

Was that measured with a meter or strips? What temp?

Tested with a meter at about 75*. I tested it again 30 min later at about 70* and got the same result.

 

[SC_Ryan]

Quick question. I know I can weigh it myself, but a teaspoon of calcium chloride or gypsum is roughly 5 g correct?

Edit: One more question. Is baking soda suitable for raising mash pH if I undershoot?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, a tsp of each weighs about 5 g but there are questions as to how tightly the salt is packed, whether the teaspoonful is level or 'heaping' etc. so it is always preferable to weigh. Then again, super accuracy is not required here.

Yes, sodium bicarbonate can be used but it has a bit more than half the pH raising power of calcium carbonate and calcium carbonate, of course, increases calcium which is always good. The bicarb will react more quickly than calcium chloride though.

Another question for you: you mention 1.5 lbs roast malt. What was the rest of the grain bill?

 

[SC_Ryan]

I don't have the recipe in front of me, but off the top of my head it was

20 lbs. 2 row
1 lbs Vienna
.75 lbs Cry60
.40 lbs Cry120
4 oz black patent
and I think the rest of the roast malt was 50/50 Pale Chocolate (200 srm) and Chocolate (500 srm)

This was kind of a "leftovers" beer that I brewed last summer and it turned out fantastic. Hopped with Goldings if you are curious.

 

[Hermit]

I was at $1.50 night at the local watering hole the other night and saw a guy salting his beer. I haven't done this since college and had forgotten about this practice. I searched the site to see if it had any real value and came up with a thread with this post.

Actually salt will mellow out the bitterness. This is a major way that salt enhances other flavors, by reducing bitterness - it surpresses harsh flavors. Adding salt to a beer will bring out the malt flavors. The loss of carbonation that you also get will reduce the sharpness and enhance the malty flavor.

A great way to familiarize this affect of salt is test it with some tonic water (regular, not diet). First taste the tonic water, then take a good lick of some salt, and then taste the tonic water again. I guarantee that you will be surprised! There is as much sugar in regular tonic water as there is in a standard soda, but you don't notice it as much because of the bitterness of the quinine. The salt masks the quinine and it tastes like real sugary soda water.

I've done this many times with my students and they are always surprised. One of these days I'll have to try it with a fairly bitter beer as it should work there also. It is common knowledge that the more bitter a beer is the less you notice the malt flavors and vice versa. Maybe this is why salty snacks and beer are such a great combo. The salt smoothes out the flavors in the beer.

Would the calcium chloride be playing a similar role here?

 

[ajdelange]

So you had about 12% acid producing malts (i.e. roast and dark crystal - not sauermalz) and got 5.2 pH at room temperature. That's what I wanted to get "into the record" on this thread.

 

[ajdelange]

I was at $1.50 night at the local watering hole the other night and saw a guy salting his beer. I haven't done this since college and had forgotten about this practice. I searched the site to see if it had any real value and came up with a thread with this post.



Would the calcium chloride be playing a similar role here?

IMO, yes.

 

[EvilBrewer]

So you had about 12% acid malts and got 5.2 pH at room temperature. That's what I wanted to get "into the record" on this thread.

By acid malts, I think you're implying roasted malts.

I'm sure that's what you meant; just don't want anyone to think you actually meant acidulated--cuz that would be bad :cross:

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, good point. I edited the post to be clear on this.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

AJ,
In another thread you wrote:

It is generally thought that the pH going into the kettle should be around 5.2.

I'm still not getting that low, probably because I'm overly-cautious of using too much acid malt or lactic acid and getting some sourness. But I've only had my meter for a few brews. Still tweeking but skeered to go over 3%.

I noticed a comment in Kaiser's How pH Affects Brewing article:

A mash pH above 5.4 should be used for decoction mashes and/or enzymatic weak mashes (i.e. large amounts of Munich malt or adjuncts)

It so happens I'm making Vienna lager this weekend using ~88% Vienna malt but only a thin mash-out decoction; infusions otherwise. Is 5.2 too low? I make a fair amount of malty German lagers so I want to get it right.

Also, is it correct that certain base malts just yield high-ish mash pHs? I'm going through a sack of Canadian Superior Pale Ale malt and the malt analysis sheet shows values for the entire season (my lot is end-of-season). It appears the mash pH steadily climbed during the season and if I'm reading it correctly my lot had a mash pH (congress?) of 5.9. Struggling to get a mash pH below 5.5 with it (but it's still early).