Very Dry Cider...newbie Questions for the Pro's

[robeastunder]

Hey all im a newbie with a question and some findings.

So i have been in the process of an ambitous task. I have a 45 gallon Jack Daniels Keg of Fermented Cider. The project started late October/Early November where i got free cider from the local orchard. I added Honey, Sugar and Frozen Raspberrys and Champagne Yeast to my barrel. Unknown to me but i soon found out that Champagne yeast really blasts the process quite fast. I had to take off the normal small bubbler i put in the bung and ran a sapline to a jug of water instead. The keg ragged on for like a 1.5 months. Once it slowed down i replaced the sapline with the smaller bubbler. It blurped along bubbling about once every 5 seconds till about 3 weeks ago where its crawled to a stop. I took a sample out last night for a taste, its very very very dry, with only a hint of flat apple taste to it. What used be a almost tinted red cloudy mix from when i started in Oct/Nov is now very crisp clear light yellow. My big mistake was i thought i had to what for the bubbling to stop, i have realized i should have been tasting as the process was going on to stop the batch when i liked the taste.

Big question is now what do i do??? Have i ruined it? I took a hydrometer reading and its right at 1.0 which in the hydrometer reads no alchohol. But it seems like it has quite a kick to it?? Am i doing something wrong?? How do i back sweeten and with what?? And if i back sweeten what do i add to the keg to stop the fermentation process from starting up again??

Thanks for everyone help.

 

[hopsalot]

assuming you want it to be sweeter. Back sweeten it, I have read to use lactose or splenda, they will not ferment

 

[Daze]

once the fermenting is COMPLETELY done you can stop future fermentation with chemicals. you can also pasteurize either in or out of the bottle. I like to back sweeten with caramelized sugar, brown sugar or apple juice concentrate.

 

[hopsalot]

Back sweetening - Home Brewing Wiki

so, you aged in a Jack Daniels barrel?

 

[robeastunder]

Ya i got a Jack Daniels Barrel from a Guy in our Area, its really the only thing i have $ invested in since the Cider was free and the sugars, yeast etc were cheap.

 

[hopsalot]

did you get any whiskey flavors in the cider?

 

[robeastunder]

And I will def try the carmalized sugar, brown sugar and concentrate. It will be fun experimenting with that this weekend. Ill prob siphon a pitcher out and start testing, but what do i use to stop the fermentation once i figure out a sweetener i like on the rest of the Cider after i siphon it out to bottle?

 

[robeastunder]

No real whiskey flavor, but def a hint of it if you put your nose right over the hole.

 

[hopsalot]

And I will def try the carmalized sugar, brown sugar and concentrate. It will be fun experimenting with that this weekend. Ill prob siphon a pitcher out and start testing, but what do i use to stop the fermentation once i figure out a sweetener i like on the rest of the Cider after i siphon it out to bottle?

if you use fermentable sugar you will need to dose your cider with campden tablets to kill off yeast. If you do not, you will end up in the same place with a dry cider

 

[robeastunder]

How do the Campden tablets work at killing the yeast?? or would you guys recommend something else, since i would like to use a fermentable sweetener if possible

 

[Daze]

If the fermentation has stopped you can inhibit further fermentation with stabilizer. I personally hate chemicals but it is a common practice. Since I don't like chemicals, I pasteurize. using a candy thermometer I bring the liquid up to 140º this will kill the yeast but not cook the cider. works well, and helps me to dissolve the sugars I back sweeten with. you can also bottle pasteurize if you are looking for a carbonated cider. keep in mind when I said caramelized sugar I am not talking about store bought caramel.

 

[robeastunder]

hopsalot - Thanks ill make sure to pick some of the campden tablets at our local brewery store. Any recommendations on how many to use per gallon. Thanks again.

 

[robeastunder]

If the fermentation has stopped you can inhibit further fermentation with stabilizer. I personally hate chemicals but it is a common practice. Since I don't like chemicals, I pasteurize. using a candy thermometer I bring the liquid up to 140º this will kill the yeast but not cook the cider. works well, and helps me to dissolve the sugars I back sweeten with. you can also bottle pasteurize if you are looking for a carbonated cider. keep in mind when I said caramelized sugar I am not talking about store bought caramel.

Ya i like this idea for sure, and i knew what you meant about he carmalized sugar, though it would have been funny to see me try hersherys caramel syrup as a sweetener.

 

[Daze]

if you use fermentable sugar you will need to dose your cider with campden tablets to kill off yeast. If you do not, you will end up in the same place with a dry cider

How do the Campden tablets work at killing the yeast?? or would you guys recommend something else, since i would like to use a fermentable sweetener if possible

campden tablets are used to inhibit wild yeast but will not do much to store bought yeast. potassium sorbet is the chemical you need but I cant stress enough that it wont kill the yeast either, just inhibit its reproduction so the wine MUST be clear and dry to use it!!!

 

[robeastunder]

If the fermentation has stopped you can inhibit further fermentation with stabilizer. I personally hate chemicals but it is a common practice. Since I don't like chemicals, I pasteurize. using a candy thermometer I bring the liquid up to 140º this will kill the yeast but not cook the cider. works well, and helps me to dissolve the sugars I back sweeten with. you can also bottle pasteurize if you are looking for a carbonated cider. keep in mind when I said caramelized sugar I am not talking about store bought caramel.

You have a link that explains the bottle Pasteurize process? Thanks

 

[robeastunder]

campden tablets are used to inhibit wild yeast but will not do much to store bought yeast. potassium sorbet is the chemical you need but I cant stress enough that it wont kill the yeast either, just inhibit its reproduction so the wine MUST be clear and dry to use it!!!

Daze, I like your idea on either bringing the cider to 140 or bottle pasterizing better then the chemical idea. I am def convinced not to go the chemical route.

 

[Daze]

it is a sticky at the top of the cider forum

 

[Daze]

how do you plan on bottling it???

 

[robeastunder]

how do you plan on bottling it???

Ya im slow i just say the sticky on the main page, sorry for the dumb question. I was thinking about 32oz and 64oz mason jars. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Daze]

If you are going to use mason jars I would simply bring it up to 140 than pore it in sterilized jars, seal them with boiled rings and lids and be done with it. I would not carbonate in those jars as they are not designed for that kind of pressure.

 

[robeastunder]

If you are going to use mason jars I would simply bring it up to 140 than pore it in sterilized jars, seal them with boiled rings and lids and be done with it. I would not carbonate in those jars as they are not designed for that kind of pressure.

Sounds good to me I like it, thanks for all the help Daze, this site is the best I have come by for knowledge on home brewing. :rockin:

 

[Daze]

my pleasure. please don't hesitate to let me now if I can help further.

 

[liquidavalon]

assuming you want it to be sweeter. Back sweeten it, I have read to use lactose or splenda, they will not ferment

I am a type 2 diabetic, so I am WELL used to consuming Splenda products. My question regarding using Splenda is: I am used to it as a sweetener and have learned recently that it can taste odd if used to back sweeten cider or effect persons that are sensitive to it ( ie headaches ect. ). Is this information valid or hold any truths?

 

[Daze]

If the you like Splenda and it does not cause problems for you than using it in a cider will be no different than using it in any other application.

 

[Justwingnit]

I see that is is an old thread but instead of making a new one I am using it to ask a question that I can't seem to locate information on.......

I am a new cider maker and have my seventh batch in it's third week of primary right now. We have only had one batch taste good when moving it to secondary (with a 5.5% to 6% ABV) and after setting in secondary a few weeks it taste great at 6% ABV. All the other batches have been back flavored and we have gotten nothing but complements on what we have been creating with the average ABV at bottling has been 8.25% using formula (OG - FG) x 131.25 = ABV. With them being at about 11% or higher before back flavoring. But we are experiencing over carbonation, we have even moved them to the refrigerator to stop the fermentation.

We have bottled some "Dry Still" but we are shooting for "Sweet Sparkling" we don't have any way to add c02 so our only choice is to carbonate the old fashion way.

We have used splenda and sugar free maple syrup and small amount of priming sugar and got the sparkling results we are looking for but we are loving the fresh honey taste as long as it gets drank before the back flavoring of honey is fermented, and before bottle is over carbonated, so I'm thinking of possible other ways like potassium sorbet.

Also we are going to try @Nebraskan suggestion of "adding a splash of apple concentrate back in as well as a touch of malic acid and sugar"

*** NOW FOR THE QUESTION ****
To prevent a "bottle bombs" can I add some potassium sorbet right before bottling and still get carbonation before the sorbet stops the fermentation or is pasteurizing my only option?

Thanks
Larry

 

[Maylar]

Potassium Sorbate will prevent carbonation. For sweet carbonated cider you need either non-fermentable sugar plus priming sugar, or read the sticky thread on stove top pasteurizing.

Or sweeten it when you drink it.

 

[Justwingnit]

campden tablets are used to inhibit wild yeast but will not do much to store bought yeast. potassium sorbet is the chemical you need but I cant stress enough that it wont kill the yeast either, just inhibit its reproduction so the wine MUST be clear and dry to use it!!!

Potassium Sorbate will prevent carbonation. For sweet carbonated cider you need either non-fermentable sugar plus priming sugar, or read the sticky thread on stove top pasteurizing.

Or sweeten it when you drink it.

If @Daze is correct and @Maylar is correct then @Justwingnit is confused.

 

[Maylar]

We're both saying the same thing. As Daze said, Potassium Sorbate inhibits the yeast's ability to reproduce, but you shouldn't use it unless the cider has cleared and fermentation has totally stopped. Otherwise the yeast get stressed and make off flavors. However, once you've sorbated the cider you no longer can get bottle carbonation because the few remaining yeasts can't ferment the priming sugar.

Still sweet cider is easy. Dry sparkling cider is easy. Sweet sparkling cider is not easy.

 

[dmtaylor]

I've begun cheating with xylitol. Just don't feed any to your dog, it is lethal to dogs. This way I can bottle prime AND get sweetness from the unfermentable xylitol which tastes exactly like real sugar, unlike sucrolose or stevia or aspartame which all taste horrible in cider.

 

[Justwingnit]

ok, thanks, i see more clearly now and im less confused.

 

[Nebraskan]

Yeast bud, and in the process produce CO2, EtOH, and enzymes that work on the breakdown of sugar. It is not a 1 step process though and takes a bit. Sorbic acid will prevent yeast from budding, reproducing, but still live on for a period. They won't work to produce CO2 very much after K-Sorbate is added, and fermentation will slow down and finally quit. It is not the way to "stop" a fermentation, as we use a centrifuge (at a cost of $165,000 USED) to stop fermentation. So as you found out, sorbate will inhibit bottle ferment for pressure, but won't work well just to stop a fermentation. Actually cold shock does more to stop cider from fermenting than does K-Sorbate.

Have a beer!... or cider!!

 

[z-bob]

I've begun cheating with xylitol. Just don't feed any to your dog, it is lethal to dogs. This way I can bottle prime AND get sweetness from the unfermentable xylitol which tastes exactly like real sugar, unlike sucrolose or stevia or aspartame which all taste horrible in cider.

Sucralose is bad in cider? What's wrong with it? (I mostly use it in iced tea) I've been thinking about ordering some pure sucralose just to use in cider. I have no problem believing that stevia and aspartame are nasty.

 

[dmtaylor]

Sucralose is bad in cider? What's wrong with it? (I mostly use it in iced tea) I've been thinking about ordering some pure sucralose just to use in cider. I have no problem believing that stevia and aspartame are nasty.

Tastes like chemicals. I know. I've done it. And I've had it judged in competition, and they said the same thing.

 

[dmf38]

robeastunder, if that was my cider I'd add Xylitol or Erythritol. That's what I do with mine and I think it tastes fine. And at least now you've found out that fermenting with honey and sugar doesn't make the cider sweeter. I would avoid adding sugars in the future. Aging it for several months helps a lot too.

 

[z-bob]

You can always ferment it totally dry, bottle carbonate it, and then add a little sugar syrup when you drink it. That really is the easiest way, and some people can add a bunch of sugar and others just a dash -- sweeten to taste like iced tea.