Upgrade from SSVR to PID + SSVR

[kzimmer0817]

EDIT NOTE: I think I figured out how to accomplish the most important part of this. See post #8. Thanks.

I'm using my goal of moving from propane BIAB to electric brewing as an opportunity to change my approach to an incremental one - with each step upwards depending upon how "in" to brewing I get. As I've said in another message: I have another hobby (pipe organ project) that was already going that I want to get completed as well - it's more of a money-drain than brewing!!

Since my son absconded with the keggle (his keg that I cut, polished, and provided hardware. Link in my signature), I'm back to my 7.5 gal SS kettle. I'm thinking of converting it into a small e-kettle for extract brewing or small volume BIAB.

Step 1: use one of the SSVR-based controllers simply to duplicate with electricity what I've done before with propane. Should be perfect for extract brewing. For steeping grains or small-volume BIAB, it'll be easier than propane.

Step 2: if I find that I'm brewing enough (and drinking enough) to warrant a better setup - or that I'm doing enough small volume BIAB that I want better temp control - I will purchase or build a PID-based controller.

Step 3: get (a) larger kettle(s).

Since I will already have a SSVR, it would be nice to incorporate it into the upgraded control panel for boil control. Yes, I understand that PIDs have manual control.

1. I understand how to wire the selector switch to choose between PID and PWM. IIRC, double-pole 3-position switch interposed between the SSR and the PID & PWM that selects which DC control circuit governs the SSR.

2. I'm thinking that choosing between PID or SSVR control is a bit more involved. At first glance, it would seem that one would place the switch (now a 220VAC double pole, 3-position switch) between the element contactor and the SSR and SSVR.

Perhaps I'm overthinking this. In the panels that include the PID + PWM, the PWM circuit keeps "firing" within itself if one doesn't turn the knob all the way down while the selector switch is set to "PID control". Likewise, the PID keeps trying to control things if the selector switch is set to "PWM" if you don't either turn off the PID or set the alarms/temps appropriately.

My question is whether or not a selector switch to choose between PID/SSVR needs to do two things:
1. choose from whence the element is receiving power: the PID+SSR or the SSVR in addition to . . .
2. shutting off the control current to the device that's not being used. IOW, under PID control, the power to the SSVR (220V) would be cut; under SSVR control, the DC circuit between PID and SSR would be cut.

#2 might not matter since neither a PID, PWM, SSR, or SSVR has internal moving parts. My concern was whether or not the SSVR (or, even, an SSR) would be bothered by continuing to cycle even though the circuit it's trying to control is interrupted.

I greatly appreciate it if you've read this far. I would appreciate your comments (except for the ones that ask, "why would you want to do this since a PID has manual control. Do you have a problem with pushing buttons?")

Thanks,
Keith

 

[jCOSbrew]

I designed my panel to emulate the High Gravity system. A 3-way switch sets the element to ON(Manual), OFF, or Auto(PID)

To do this, I use the PID in "thermostat" mode, the heating element is either ON or OFF. I use a relay output PID to control the contactor coil which enable/disables 220V AC power to the element. While the PID is in use (during the mash) I can use the POT to reduce the power to the element (set to 50%, etc.)

This is simple and effective and IMO the thermostat type control is adequate for 1-2 degree resolution. I figure that the mash temp will vary a couple degrees depending on the location of your temp sensor.

If you don't want/need the analog knob than just get a PID with manual mode for controlling the boil and ditch the SSVR.

 

[jCOSbrew]

Another idea would be to insulate the kettle or use a cooler to maintain mash temps and skip the PID altogether.

 

[kzimmer0817]

As I'm composing a response/question for JCOSbrew, I'd like to make sure I'm understanding the differences among these options:

1. PWM: divides the time-line into fixed length segments/pulses according to a predetermined frequency or cadence. Adjusting the potentiometer simply controls the % of time in each pulse that the current is on. IOW, it's like a light bulb the end of a pendulum that's swinging at a fixed rate. Turning the knob controls how long the light is on during each swing. The current is either full on or full off.

2. PID: like the PWM, during "auto" mode the current is either full on or full off, but, instead of varying the time on during a fixed cadence, it uses logic that takes into consideration factors such as temp, rate of temp change to determine how long the current is on and at what frequency. In "manual" mode, I'm assuming that it functions essentially identically to the PWM.

3. SSVR: I under the impression that the SSVR is not simply an ON/OFF controller, but that it actually controls the amount of "power" going to the element. When set at 50%, my understanding is that the element is not simply on 1/2 of some period of time, but the element is constantly on but is half as hot as it would be at 100%.

I'm thinking that the High Gravity EBC-SV (has a PID and a knob) has the PID and the SSVR connected in series. For a little finer control, the PID can be set to maintain a certain temp, but, instead of its pulses being 100% power, they are lessened by the SSVR.

You cannot connect a PID and PWM in series as they will be competing with one another and neither will win. If my understanding is correct, one could connect a PID + SSVR in series (as I'm thinking High Gravity and jCOSbrew has done). One could also connect a PWM + SSVR in series, but there would be no reason to connect 2 manual controls in series.

Using my swinging light bulb analogy, it would be like - not only is the light bulb only on during part of the swing, but you can also control the brightness of it.

BTW, has anyone dissected any of the High Gravity controllers (EKC or, more importantly to this discussion, the EBC-SV)?

Thanks,
Keith

Thanks,
Keith

 

[kzimmer0817]

Please don't neglect my "request for clarification" post #4 above.

I really do apologize, guys. Whenever I set out to ask a short question, I find that my message takes up an entire 8.5" x 11" piece of paper. I always try to do some research before I post a question so that I don't waste everyone's time with material that's already been covered many times over. Instead of asking a simple question, waiting for an answer, then doing what I'm told, I drag y'all through my entire reasoning process - like wanting y'all to teach me to be an electrician instead of simply asking how to wire a dryer. The result is that I'm probably still wasting your time. I guess, the only saving grace is if someone else who tends to over-think things has a similar question, s/he can find my question and learn something from it.

Another idea would be to insulate the kettle or use a cooler to maintain mash temps and skip the PID altogether. . . . If you don't want/need the analog knob than just get a PID with manual mode for controlling the boil and ditch the SSVR

In "My First All-Grain, BIAB . . . " thread, one can see how I controlled the mash temp on a beautiful Spring day outside using propane. That level of control - as you stated above - is where I'm considering starting. Install a Camco 3000W ULWD element and a ball valve into my 7.5 gallon SS beginner kettle and get High Gravity's Electric Kettle Controller (I posted a parts list on another thread). Since I was using propane with the keggle that I no longer have, this would be the simplest way to go electric. Viewing the cost of the Auberins SSVR, I could probably build this for much, much less.

I'm thinking that I would either purchase a SSVR - kit or premade (appears simpler than even the little PWM kit from Baketronics) for my initial control. True, I could start from scratch to build an upgraded controller (or purchase one) when I want better mash control and get rid of the simple, basic one. OTOH, since I'd have the parts in the basic controller, why not take it apart and include them in the advanced (PID controlled) version?

I designed my panel to emulate the High Gravity system. A 3-way switch sets the element to ON(Manual), OFF, or Auto(PID)

This is exactly what my question was about. My main question seems to get buried in all the extraneous verbiage I include. I want to duplicate this idea. My question was the actual connections. A circuit diagram would be extremely helpful. I did not see a selector switch on the High Gravity controller, though. In the video, it appeared that the guy set the PID to manual at 100% and used the knob to control the boil. I'm thinking that this device has the PID and the SSVR connected in series. I'm trying to figure out how.

To do this, I use the PID in "thermostat" mode, the heating element is either ON or OFF. I use a relay output PID to control the contactor coil which enable/disables 220V AC power to the element. While the PID is in use (during the mash) I can use the POT to reduce the power to the element (set to 50%, etc.)

This is the part where I'm a bit confused and what prompted me to ask my original question. I tho't that the control circuit from the PID to the SSR is low voltage DC.

1. By relay output PID do you mean that the output/control circuit of your PID is 120VAC? I haven't studied the various PIDs on the Auberins site thinking that I would get the 2352 that so many others use. Also, I didn't see any contactors on the Auberins site that used DC for their control circuits.

2. So, does your PID control the contactor directly or thru a SSR?

3. Regarding the contactor. I'm assuming that "contactor" is simply another name for an electromechanical relay - one with moving parts. I was led to believe that the reason folks recommended the SSR vs an EM-relay was that the SSR with no moving parts was better able to tolerate the somewhat rapid ON/OFF cycling of the PID/PWM better than an EM-relay with its moving parts. Folks are incorporating contactors in their builds, along with the PID+SSR, to ensure that the element is truly OFF.

4. How is your 3-way switch wired? You said that the choices are: "element to ON(Manual), OFF, or Auto(PID)". That would imply to me that it's either PID (Auto) control or SSVR (Manual) control but not both. Since you are able to control your power using the Pot even when in Auto (PID) mode, it appears that your switch chooses between Auto (PID+SSVR) or Manual (SSVR only).

Since a picture is worth a thousand words, do you have a circuit diagram for your build? I have a hunch how the High Gravity EBC-SV works - the PID and SSVR are in series, and there's no selector switch. My original quesion was how to place a selector switch - much like yours - so that I would choose between PID control and SSVR control. Now I'm confused, because it appears that your selector switch maintains SSVR control of the current and simply cuts the PID out when you want manual control.

Thanks,
Keith

 

[jCOSbrew]

You cannot connect anything in series with the POT for the SSVR. It has its own internal circuit that accepts the resistance input.

If you were using a PWM you would switch the control signals (12v DC) between the PWM output and the PID output to change which device is controlling the SSR. There should be a few diagrams of this config on the forum.

 

[kzimmer0817]

You cannot connect anything in series with the POT for the SSVR. It has its own internal circuit that accepts the resistance input.

I was already very certain of this. The SSVR supplies its own control signal current for the POT.

If you were using a PWM you would switch the control signals (12v DC) between the PWM output and the PID output to change which device is controlling the SSR. There should be a few diagrams of this config on the forum.

I already had this one figured out. The 3-position switch would choose between the DC control signals from either the PID or the PWM or OFF (no signal).
-----------
My problem was how to switch between PID-control (AUTO) or SSVR-control (MANUAL). AUTO control would require a PID+SSR, whereas manual control would simply require the SSVR. The 3-position selector switch would now be positioned farther downstream - after the PID/SSR and SSVR - in the 220VAC part of the circuit. IOW, whichever leg of the element is being "switched" will receive its current from either of the following depending upon the position of the switch:

(1) the AC current coming from the PID/SSR for AUTO control
or
(2) the AC current coming from the SSVR that's being controlled by it's own POT for MANUAL control.
or
(3) no current if the switch is in the OFF position
----------
I "think" I understand how the PID and SSVR might be connected in series. I'm thinking that this is what High Gravity has done in their EBC-SV.

Begin with one of PJ's wonderful diagrams of a 220VAC PID-controlled circuit in which the PID is connected to a SSR that switches one leg of the 220VAC element circuit.

Now, place SSVR into the switched leg of the element between the SSR and the element. The PID would turn the element ON/OFF according to its settings while the SSVR would regulate the actual power to the element.
----------
Where I really got confused was in #4 of my previous post. I'm trying to put together 2 statements you made and figure out "how does he do that?"

A 3-way switch sets the element to ON(Manual), OFF, or Auto(PID)

and

While the PID is in use (during the mash) I can use the POT to reduce the power to the element (set to 50%, etc.)

What it looks like is that your MANUAL mode uses the SSVR exclusively. Your AUTO mode uses both in series as described above. My lesser question had to do with your mention of the "relay output PID" and the contactor.

I really am interested in your build because it sounds like something I'd like to try when I get ready to upgrade. I'd be interested in any details, diagrams, etc you might have. Did you post a build thread?

Thanks,
Keith

 

[kzimmer0817]

I hate to be presumptuous and keep posting to my own thread, but I think I've resolved the issue after having done some more research. I can tell that my 2 main questions got lost in all my extra words.

Dave Knotts of High Gravity explained a bit about their controller in the following posts showing that my understanding of their controller wasn't completely accurate:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/h...troller-ebc-sv-357594/index2.html#post4459337
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/h...troller-ebc-sv-357594/index2.html#post4462771

1. Answer to my initial question of how to incorporate the components of a SSVR-based controller (should I use one initially) into a larger PID-based controller if I decide to upgrade in order to automate mash temp control. I stumbled upon the following posting by Dawai that explains it very well:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/potentiometer-ssrv-wiring-help-423321/#post5377623

2. Regarding my question about a selector switch, I've realized that I don't need to choose between the PID or the SSVR for control. Using Dawai's schematic: (a) during ramp up to strike temp, I simply set the SSVR to 100%, then set the PID to Auto and set the temp. (b) when it's time to boil, I set the PID to Manual @100% then control the boil with the potentiometer for the SSVR. Very simple.

Thanks for reading,
Keith

 

[rourky80]

I was looking at the same idea for my controller and setup....... I have decided to add a selector switch to control either PID or pot (into ssr or ssvr), that way I don't need to go into any pid settings when I want to control boil with the pot. I also don't want to deal with pushing buttons on a pid when my boil is close as I am going to use a quarter keg, and I know my boils will be close to the top and I think it will be easier to prevent boil overs with a knob.

 

[kzimmer0817]

I was looking at the same idea for my controller and setup....... I have decided to add a selector switch to control either PID or pot (into ssr or ssvr), that way I don't need to go into any pid settings when I want to control boil with the pot. I also don't want to deal with pushing buttons on a pid when my boil is close as I am going to use a quarter keg, and I know my boils will be close to the top and I think it will be easier to prevent boil overs with a knob.

Rourky,
Thanks for your input. I would love to see your diagram for this. The problem is that this thing that sounds so simple on the surface is a lot more complicated (I think) when you actually try to execute it. My understanding of the choices so far:

1. The PID requires 120VAC input but provides a low voltage DC signal to go to the control side of the SSR which then switches one leg of the element.

2. A PWM is powered by low voltage DC current and supplies a low voltage DC signal to the control side of the SSR which then switches one leg of the element.

Including both in a build along with a selector switch to choose between them is easy: the switch is is placed before the SSR and simply selects which DC signal it wants to obey: that from the PID or that from the PWM. The PID still has power to it if you want to monitor the temps.

3. The SSVR appears really simple to use where all you need is manual control. You don't need a SSR or a PID. The SSVR is connected to one leg of the element circuit (just like a SSR). Unlike the SSR, though, the SSVR provides its own DC control circuit to which you connect the Pot.

After fiddling with a couple diagrams on paper, it appears that the simplest way to do what we are suggesting would be to place the switch AFTER BOTH the PID+SSR and SSVR and before the element.

So, whichever hot leg of the 220V circuit that is going to be switched will send leads to both the SSR and the SSVR. From here, the SSR and SSVR will each connect to the selector switch (heavier duty than the one for DC current) that will determine which device will control the element, the PID+SSR or the SSVR.

With this arrangement, the PID will still be ON (so you can watch the temp or utilize the alarm for whatever reason), but it won't be controlling the element if the selector switch is set to SSVR.
---------------
Rourky80, As I mentioned in my previous post I may simply connect the SSR and the SSVR in series as shown by Dawai in the link I gave in the previous post. This would not require a selector switch.

Thanks, again, for your response.
Keith

 

[rourky80]

I am looking at having the hot "line 2" that comes into my system and usually only feeds the in switching side of the ssr, come in to a dpst selector switch which then feeds the in switching side of the ssr or the in to the non control side of the ssvr (if that makes sense). So I set the selector switch to pid for mash and the hot allows the ssr to work as expected with no hot into the ssvr, and when switched the ssr would be switching but has no hot leg so it's switching nothing, and the ssvr has the hot and is controlled by the pot, with the hot out of the ssr and ssvr both going to the same contactor connection. That way yes my pid will still work to show me temperatures and alarm when set. I have used one of pj's drawings and modified to suit for me, and drawn it up by hand for all my specifics and where they will be placed in my control box (just all in pencil and I haven't scanned it yet).

 

[kzimmer0817]

Rourky80,
Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I am looking at having the hot "line 2" that comes into my system and usually only feeds the in switching side of the ssr, come in to a dpst selector switch which then feeds the in switching side of the ssr or the in to the non control side of the ssvr (if that makes sense).

Actually, it does make sense. Before I responded to your previous post, I scribbled with pen and paper. My first schematic was just as you described: the selector switch was "upstream" from the SSR and SSVR, being on this hot "line #2". I had a reservation about this (that I won't bore you with, because I've figured out that it was baseless), so I drew the schematic with the selector switch "downstream" from the SSR and SSVR.

So I set the selector switch to pid for mash and the hot allows the ssr to work as expected with no hot into the ssvr, and when switched the ssr would be switching but has no hot leg so it's switching nothing, and the ssvr has the hot and is controlled by the pot, with the hot out of the ssr and ssvr both going to the same contactor connection. That way yes my pid will still work to show me temperatures and alarm when set.

I understand. One concern that got lost in my initial or 2nd post (I don't feel like rummaging thru it to find it) was whether or not it would hurt a SSR to be "switching" constantly. I guess it shouldn't matter since there are no moving parts - unlike an electromechanical relay.

I do have a question for you, rourky80 - I'm really asking us both: wouldn't it be simpler (one less switch) to simply wire the SSR and the SSVR in series as shown in the schematic found in the following link (include, of course, the contactor activated by the "Element" button)? It would allow us both to accomplish what we wish:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/potentiometer-ssrv-wiring-help-423321/#post5377623

I haven't actually operated the oft-used Auber 2352 PID. I think it's only a couple button presses to get into manual mode @ 100%. I'll repeat my little epiphany from my post yesterday:

2. Regarding my question about a selector switch, I've realized that I don't need to choose between the PID or the SSVR for control. Using Dawai's schematic: (a) during ramp up to strike temp, I simply set the SSVR to 100%, then set the PID to Auto and set the temp. (b) when it's time to boil, I set the PID to Manual @100% then control the boil with the potentiometer for the SSVR. Very simple.

This would function like High Gravity's EBC-SV (although the components are different). In the video on the website, Dave Knott mentions that there can be an advantage to being able to control the actual power to the element even when you're under PID control for the temp control.

Anyway, I'd like to read your thoughts after you consider what I'm also considering.

Thanks, again, for responding,
Keith

 

[rourky80]

I think the ssr and ssvr in serial would work, and they then are both working and you could run it as you intend. For a couple of reasons, one of which i don't have a really valid reason for is that I know I would probably forget to move the ssvr to 100% and getting my strike up to temp would take forever just cause I forgot to turn the pot, so mainly just doing it for my own methods. Another reason I am looking at doing it this way is how I am setting my heat sink up on my control box, I want to use one slightly oversized to fit both heat sinks so I don't really want them both working at the same time. I am going to place the heatsink at the outside of the box on the top, however I am using a toolbox so I when I pack up I want the lid to cover over the heatsink so it's inside and won't get damaged and make it cleaner it store when not in use, so I don't have a lot of room for a large, or two heatsinks.
Also to me one extra switch isn't too much of a concern as I am looking at having another 6 switches in my set up already (all lighted rocker switches), main, power to pid, power to element, two for outlets, pumps etc, and one to turn the alarm off, while also incorporating lights to show when set to dial, and when the element has power.

I have been debating all these style of issues in my head before I proceed and buy everything, I have the toolbox and quarter keg already, but that is it.

I see no problems in the easier way you want to set up, it's one reason I think electric is/has become popular is because you really can customize to your own methods, and exactly what you think you need, with alarms, timers, ebiab, herms, 2-element etc. Just like we want pots to control boil on our set-ups when everyone else keeps saying its redundant due to the manual mode of the pid.

Keep updating the thread on your build as you go, there will always be someone that may take something from your ideas to incorporate into theirs, mine is exactly that, many ideas from many builds, and that's the great thing about this forum!
Cheers!

 

[cliffhanger1821]

Why don't you just switch one leg of 240v with the pid and SSR and switch the other leg with the ssvr? That is what I am thinking of doing, I suppose you could forget to put the ssvr on 100% when the pid is trying to maintain the mash, but you could forget a lot of things during brewing and we usually don't (because we want to control the process). This would by no means be an auto brewing operation, but I think you might find even more functionality if you could use them both (SSR and SSVR) at the same time.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Home Brew mobile app

 

[kzimmer0817]

I have been debating all these style of issues in my head before I proceed and buy everything, I have the toolbox and quarter keg already, but that is it.

I see no problems in the easier way you want to set up, it's one reason I think electric is/has become popular is because you really can customize to your own methods, and exactly what you think you need, with alarms, timers, ebiab, herms, 2-element etc. Just like we want pots to control boil on our set-ups when everyone else keeps saying its redundant due to the manual mode of the pid. <snip> Cheers!

For me, at least, this has been a good dialogue - and one that others can learn something from (sorry about ending the sentence with a preposition).

In some of the research I've done the past few days, I came across some advice that Kal had given someone who was appearing to jump into the e-build prematurely. I can't quote him exactly, but it had to do with the fact that we should determine/develop our own brewing process that works. Then we should design our rig, control panel, etc. around that process that works for us.

During the 3 years I've rented, I couldn't really get much of an e-brew setup going, so I used propane. We've been in this house for a year, now. There are a few "honey-do" things that need to be done along with a few projects in the brew area (plumbing and electrical) that all seem interdependent.

Without knowing how far I will go with beer brewing - or if I might switch completely to making wine - I wanted to try in incremental approach in which I could incorporate components from each step into the next instead of trying to sell stuff I no longer used.

I'm going to keep in mind your description of your circuit. For a reason that I, too, cannot explain, I'd like to have a selector switch.

Do post a thread on your build.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[kzimmer0817]

Why don't you just switch one leg of 240v with the pid and SSR and switch the other leg with the ssvr? That is what I am thinking of doing,

Thanks for your suggestion. I'll have to think about your suggestion.
Keith

 

[Brumateur]

Originally Posted by cliffhanger1821 View Post
Why don't you just switch one leg of 240v with the pid and SSR and switch the other leg with the ssvr? That is what I am thinking of doing,

Thanks for your suggestion. I'll have to think about your suggestion.
Keith

There are absolutely no difference if you connect two SSRs inline or one SSR on one leg and another on second leg. Effectively they will be in line in both cases.
And they will work OK. The only disadvantage you will loose more power. Unlike a contactor or mechanical relay SSR consume some power even if its on "ON" position for SSR or "Full power" for SSVR. You have a few votage drop on each SSR/SSVR. That's why you need a heatsink to dissipate that power.

But you can use only one SSVR and a PID with relay output. Just connect pot to SSVR through PID's relay. When relay is open SSVR will give you 0 power when relay is closed SSVR will provide power set by pot position.

 

[kzimmer0817]

Thanks, Brewmateur. After a little more research, I think I'm figuring out how to accomplish what I want to do. Regarding the decrease in power: I plan to brew 5 gallon batches with pre-boil volume of under 7 gallons. Using a 5500W ULWD element would give me some room.