The Barrel Mimic Experiment

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2 Week Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

First, we must identify the components of a true barrel aged flavor.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Oaky, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Of course, it needs more oak for a fuller flavor and body.
-Body: Improved but needs more time.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet
-Taste: Very trace oak, but musty. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins.
-Body: Some increased body but very little.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky (slightly less than barrel), honey, sweet
-Taste: Trace vanilla, honey, smoke. Tannins present but needs more.
-Body: Improved, similar to barrel at this point.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, less than barrel at this time.

Fruit Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, but it’s a bit strange. No oak noticeable. Honey. Tannins definitely present. It would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Taste like I combined them. Tart fruit flavor is still at odds with this mead. The vanilla makes it better by providing a counterpoint and some oak, but still off.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.

Takeaway

It’s hard to describe oak flavor. While vanilla is one component, it’s so much more than that. I could get into chemical compounds, but let’s keep it simple. I get 3 real components of a barrel flavor:
1. Vanilla
2. Enhancing flavors (smoke, vanilla-like compounds that give a more satisfying sensation than pure vanilla)
3. Tannins (body, mouthfeel, thickness)

With the above criteria, I rate each as follows:
-Cubes lack everything compared to a barrel.
-Xoakers give 2 and some 3, but lack 1.
-Liquid Tannin Vanilla gives 1 and some 3, but lacks 2.
-Liquid Tannin Fruit is just not suitable for this purpose at all. It is more of a fruit Tannin enhancer rather than a Barrel Mimic.
-Combined Liquid tannins maybe useful in fruit, but is just strange here.

My take away at this point is to combine Xoakers and Liquid Tannin Vanilla as a suitable Barrel Mimic. For a fruit mead, maybe add Liquid Tannin Fruit as well. I don’t imagine the Liquid Tannins will improve further, but the Xoakers should.

Keep in mind this is 2 weeks in. My barrel aging sweet spot is generally somewhere between 2-4 months depending on temperature fluctuations. I like big oak, but prefer to stop before bourbon notes become apparent.

Cheers until the next time point in 2 weeks!
 
loveofrose said:
2 Week Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

First, we must identify the components of a true barrel aged flavor.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Oaky, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Of course, it needs more oak for a fuller flavor and body.
-Body: Improved but needs more time.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet
-Taste: Very trace oak, but musty. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins.
-Body: Some increased body but very little.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky (slightly less than barrel), honey, sweet
-Taste: Trace vanilla, honey, smoke. Tannins present but needs more.
-Body: Improved, similar to barrel at this point.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, less than barrel at this time.

Fruit Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, but it’s a bit strange. No oak noticeable. Honey. Tannins definitely present. It would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Taste like I combined them. Tart fruit flavor is still at odds with this mead. The vanilla makes it better by providing a counterpoint and some oak, but still off.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.

Takeaway

It’s hard to describe oak flavor. While vanilla is one component, it’s so much more than that. I could get into chemical compounds, but let’s keep it simple. I get 3 real components of a barrel flavor:
1. Vanilla
2. Enhancing flavors (smoke, vanilla-like compounds that give a more satisfying sensation than pure vanilla)
3. Tannins (body, mouthfeel, thickness)

With the above criteria, I rate each as follows:
-Cubes lack everything compared to a barrel.
-Xoakers give 2 and some 3, but lack 1.
-Liquid Tannin Vanilla gives 1 and some 3, but lacks 2.
-Liquid Tannin Fruit is just not suitable for this purpose at all. It is more of a fruit Tannin enhancer rather than a Barrel Mimic.
-Combined Liquid tannins maybe useful in fruit, but is just strange here.

My take away at this point is to combine Xoakers and Liquid Tannin Vanilla as a suitable Barrel Mimic. For a fruit mead, maybe add Liquid Tannin Fruit as well. I don’t imagine the Liquid Tannins will improve further, but the Xoakers should.

Keep in mind this is 2 weeks in. My barrel aging sweet spot is generally somewhere between 2-4 months depending on temperature fluctuations. I like big oak, but prefer to stop before bourbon notes become apparent.

Cheers until the next time point in 2 weeks!
Click to expand...

What changed? In your OP you described the oak cubes as "Tried and true". Now they seem to be worthless.
 
@loveofrose
Did you weigh the cubes?
Did you boil them?

Oak flavor varies by product, nationality, toast level, toast method, preparation, time/amount ... Lots of variables.
 
NeverDie said:
What changed? In your OP you described the oak cubes as "Tried and true". Now they seem to be worthless.
Click to expand...

At this time point, they are inferior to Xoakers. The “best” is actually the “best of what you have”. Xoakers and Liquid Tannin didn’t exist before. Also, I stated the cubes were lacking in the OP.
 
RPh_Guy said:
@loveofrose
Did you weigh the cubes?
Did you boil them?

Oak flavor varies by product, nationality, toast level, toast method, preparation, time/amount ... Lots of variables.
Click to expand...

Dosing was done based on surface area.
No boiling, just drop them in.

I purchased my cubes from morewinemaking. I haven’t tasted a lot of flavor variation in the 8 years or so I’ve bought their stuff. YMMV
 
loveofrose said:
At this time point, they are inferior to Xoakers. The “best” is actually the “best of what you have”. Xoakers and Liquid Tannin didn’t exist before. Also, I stated the cubes were lacking in the OP.
Click to expand...

The Xoakers are 1" diameter, if I'm not mistaken. What are the dimensions on your oak cubes? The LD Carlson oak cubes are maybe roughly 1/4 the volume of a Xoaker, but I realize those aren't what you are testing. I ask because if your cubes are showing nothing compared to the Xoakers, I'm guessing they perhaps have bigger volume? Or maybe not--maybe it's just the way that Stavin prepares them compared to the way Xoakers are prepared.
 
loveofrose said:
2 Week Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

First, we must identify the components of a true barrel aged flavor.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Oaky, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Of course, it needs more oak for a fuller flavor and body.
-Body: Improved but needs more time.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet
-Taste: Very trace oak, but musty. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins.
-Body: Some increased body but very little.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky (slightly less than barrel), honey, sweet
-Taste: Trace vanilla, honey, smoke. Tannins present but needs more.
-Body: Improved, similar to barrel at this point.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, less than barrel at this time.

Fruit Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, but it’s a bit strange. No oak noticeable. Honey. Tannins definitely present. It would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Taste like I combined them. Tart fruit flavor is still at odds with this mead. The vanilla makes it better by providing a counterpoint and some oak, but still off.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.

Takeaway

It’s hard to describe oak flavor. While vanilla is one component, it’s so much more than that. I could get into chemical compounds, but let’s keep it simple. I get 3 real components of a barrel flavor:
1. Vanilla
2. Enhancing flavors (smoke, vanilla-like compounds that give a more satisfying sensation than pure vanilla)
3. Tannins (body, mouthfeel, thickness)

With the above criteria, I rate each as follows:
-Cubes lack everything compared to a barrel.
-Xoakers give 2 and some 3, but lack 1.
-Liquid Tannin Vanilla gives 1 and some 3, but lacks 2.
-Liquid Tannin Fruit is just not suitable for this purpose at all. It is more of a fruit Tannin enhancer rather than a Barrel Mimic.
-Combined Liquid tannins maybe useful in fruit, but is just strange here.

My take away at this point is to combine Xoakers and Liquid Tannin Vanilla as a suitable Barrel Mimic. For a fruit mead, maybe add Liquid Tannin Fruit as well. I don’t imagine the Liquid Tannins will improve further, but the Xoakers should.

Keep in mind this is 2 weeks in. My barrel aging sweet spot is generally somewhere between 2-4 months depending on temperature fluctuations. I like big oak, but prefer to stop before bourbon notes become apparent.

Cheers until the next time point in 2 weeks!
Click to expand...
Thanks -- good stuff! [emoji111]

Look forward to your future updates [emoji57]
 
1 Month Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Strong Oak, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Oak is approaching balance. More vanilla than last time.
-Body: Much improved but needs a wee bit more time.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet
-Taste: Light vanilla. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins.
-Body: Some increased body.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky but smells hollow compared to Barrel, honey, sweet. Some mustyness.
-Taste: Trace vanilla, honey, smoke. Tannins present but needs more. Lacks the depth of a barrel.
-Body: Improved, hollow compared to barrel.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, lot less than barrel at this time.

Fruit Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, this has integrated quite nicely. No oak noticeable but it’s quite pleasant. Honey. Tannins definitely present. I take back saying it would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Nice vanilla with a bit of tartness. Now that some more integration time has occurred, this is way better together than apart. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.

Takeaway

It’s hard to describe oak flavor. While vanilla is one component, it’s so much more than that. I could get into chemical compounds, but let’s keep it simple. I get 3 real components of a barrel flavor:
1. Vanilla
2. Enhancing flavors (smoke, vanilla-like compounds that give a more satisfying sensation than pure vanilla)
3. Tannins (body, mouthfeel, thickness)

With the above criteria, I rate each as follows:
-Cubes lack everything compared to a barrel.
-Xoakers give 2 and some 3, but lack 1. Still lacks everything compared to a barrel.
-Liquid Tannin Vanilla gives 1 and some 3, but lacks 2. Still lacks everything compared to a barrel.
-Liquid Tannin Fruit is just not suitable for a Barrel Mimic. It is suitable for adding an acidity however.
-Combined Liquid tannins is actually quite good now. It just doesn’t resemble a barrel.

I still contend using both Xoakers and Liquid Tannin Vanilla would make for a suitable Barrel Mimic, but I would triple the number of Xoakers I add. It’s nowhere even close to the quality of a barrel at this time point, but far better than adding nothing.

The Fruit Enhancer Liquid Tannin actually serves better for providing a rather neutral acidity not attributable to any fruit. That is definitely going in the tool box!

At 1 month, all of these are improvements over no oak, but the barrel is far superior at this point. I may need to retest with a combination of treatments to really get to a barrels level. I’m thinking of adding more Xoakers with the Liquid Vanilla. We will see. I feel 2 months is all that will be necessary for the barrel.

Cheers until the next time point in 1 month!
 
loveofrose said:
1 Month Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Strong Oak, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Oak is approaching balance. More vanilla than last time.
-Body: Much improved but needs a wee bit more time.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet
-Taste: Light vanilla. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins.
-Body: Some increased body.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky but smells hollow compared to Barrel, honey, sweet. Some mustyness.
-Taste: Trace vanilla, honey, smoke. Tannins present but needs more. Lacks the depth of a barrel.
-Body: Improved, hollow compared to barrel.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, lot less than barrel at this time.

Fruit Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, this has integrated quite nicely. No oak noticeable but it’s quite pleasant. Honey. Tannins definitely present. I take back saying it would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Nice vanilla with a bit of tartness. Now that some more integration time has occurred, this is way better together than apart. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.

Takeaway

It’s hard to describe oak flavor. While vanilla is one component, it’s so much more than that. I could get into chemical compounds, but let’s keep it simple. I get 3 real components of a barrel flavor:
1. Vanilla
2. Enhancing flavors (smoke, vanilla-like compounds that give a more satisfying sensation than pure vanilla)
3. Tannins (body, mouthfeel, thickness)

With the above criteria, I rate each as follows:
-Cubes lack everything compared to a barrel.
-Xoakers give 2 and some 3, but lack 1. Still lacks everything compared to a barrel.
-Liquid Tannin Vanilla gives 1 and some 3, but lacks 2. Still lacks everything compared to a barrel.
-Liquid Tannin Fruit is just not suitable for a Barrel Mimic. It is suitable for adding an acidity however.
-Combined Liquid tannins is actually quite good now. It just doesn’t resemble a barrel.

I still contend using both Xoakers and Liquid Tannin Vanilla would make for a suitable Barrel Mimic, but I would triple the number of Xoakers I add. It’s nowhere even close to the quality of a barrel at this time point, but far better than adding nothing.

The Fruit Enhancer Liquid Tannin actually serves better for providing a rather neutral acidity not attributable to any fruit. That is definitely going in the tool box!

At 1 month, all of these are improvements over no oak, but the barrel is far superior at this point. I may need to retest with a combination of treatments to really get to a barrels level. I’m thinking of adding more Xoakers with the Liquid Vanilla. We will see. I feel 2 months is all that will be necessary for the barrel.

Cheers until the next time point in 1 month!
Click to expand...
Good stuff - thanks for efforts & updates!

Cheers [emoji111]
 
2 Month Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Strong Oak, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Oak is balanced nicely with the sweetness of the mead. It is now starting to get some trace bourbon notes.
-Body: Nice body. I don’t think it will get much better without over oaking it.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet. The musty smell has increased in a bad way.
-Taste: Light vanilla. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins. Cannot taste the mustiness much.
-Body: Improved body. About the same as 1 month.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky but smells hollow compared to Barrel, honey, sweet. Some mustyness.
-Taste: Lots of vanilla (more of a 1 dimensional vanilla compared to barrel), honey, trace smoke. Slightly less tannins than a barrel.
-Body: Improved, very close to barrel.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin (No change from 1 month)
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Multidimensional Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, lot less than barrel.

Fruit Liquid Tannin (No change from 1 month)
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, this has integrated quite nicely. No oak noticeable but it’s quite pleasant. Honey. Tannins definitely present. I take back saying it would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin (No change from 1 month)
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Nice vanilla with a bit of tartness. Now that some more integration time has occurred, this is way better together than apart. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.


Takeaway

Bottom Line: Xoakers with Vanilla Liquid Tannin would be my recommended barrel mimic. Perhaps up the dose of Xoakers.

Xoakers provide most of the barrel body and base vanilla content, but the vanilla is one dimensional. The Vanilla Liquid Tannin provides a multidimensional vanilla flavor and some additional body. So far, neither of these have provided any trace bourbon notes like the barrel. It could be the Xoakers need more time to fully extract or perhaps I didn’t use a high enough dose of Xoakers.

Since 3 months is the recommended extraction time for Cubes and Xoakers, I will do another time point at 3 months. I may bottle the barrel mead before that point. I find strong bourbon notes to be a flaw in mead (personal preference).

Other Points
The Fruit Enhancing Tannin Extract mostly adds clean body and some tartness. It will be my go to over acid blend when a mead needs a slight touch of acidity. Not barrel related, but good to know!
 
Last edited:
loveofrose said:
I am testing 4 Xoakers and 3.7 ml per gallon in batches now. My feeling is that it will be pretty close to a barrel, but we will see.
Click to expand...

Thanks for doing all this work and for sharing your results! Your conclusions will save us the cost of having to buy barrels. Also, unlike a barrel, which degrade with each use, I imagine it be highly repeatable, since fresh xoakers can be used each time.
 
loveofrose said:
I am testing 4 Xoakers and 3.7 ml per gallon in batches now. My feeling is that it will be pretty close to a barrel, but we will see.
Click to expand...

Bray, is this the liquid tannin you use?

514g0RAtZIL._SL1000_.jpg
 
Any update? And which or combo would you use for a batch of berry death? Hungarian or American? How about spires?
 
Last edited:
My standard protocol now (when it can’t go in a barrel) is as follows per gallon:
1. Standard Meads: 3 Xoaker Med+ American Oak and 3 ml Toasted Oak Liquid Tannin - Vanilla aging for 2-3 months.
2. Melomel: Same as above, but add 3 ml Toasted Oak Liquid Tannin - Fruit Enhancer

Depending on the mead, I may change things a bit. Above is a good starting point. You can always add a bit less and add more later if needed.
 
Thank you! 2-3 months, I might get a batch Oaked for the end of ice fishing season.
 
Thanks for this extremely informative thread. It appears that the liquid oak tannins from Morewine and BSG are both from the same company, Toasted Oak Inc. Good to know that they benefit from some time to integrate. Do you think it's possible that it's because you went with such a high dose (for instance, 2.51 ml per gallon was stated as the high dose for the fruit enhancer plus, back in the first post)? Also, have you experimented with adding any of these in primary fermentation, or do you stick to adding them afterwards?

Edit: just reread the first post, and I see that you went with 1.85 ml of each liquid tannin initially (in the combined liquid tannin batch), but now you're going with 3 ml of each per gallon for melomels. It sounds like a lot, so I'm wondering how intense the effect is from those products and if you would adjust this based on the strength of the mead, amount of fruit, etc.
 
Last edited:
Something that I've been doing for many years with great success is, get a whisky barrel planter from Walmart. It's great 'cause they are real whisky barrels.
Take the hoops off and seperate the staves. Then I'll sand the staves down to new wood, cut them into strips,( depending on surface area desired) and re toast them. To toast them, I put 'em in tinfoil on the grill and get 'em to 400 for 45 mins or so for a medium toast. I prefer 400 to bring out the vanillans, and sometimes I'll char one side.

Here is a temp chart. to give you an Idea of how to toast.

World_Cooperage_Wood_Toast.jpg
 
Xoakers and fruit enhancer ordered today, along with more Fermaid O and a Cabernet kit. More wine has 15% off site wide!
 
loveofrose said:
My standard protocol now (when it can’t go in a barrel) is as follows per gallon:
1. Standard Meads: 3 Xoaker Med+ American Oak and 3 ml Toasted Oak Liquid Tannin - Vanilla aging for 2-3 months.
2. Melomel: Same as above, but add 3 ml Toasted Oak Liquid Tannin - Fruit Enhancer

Depending on the mead, I may change things a bit. Above is a good starting point. You can always add a bit less and add more later if needed.
Click to expand...

This protocol is for post fermentation aging, right?

Do you reuse Xoakers?

Cheers [emoji111]
 
Last edited:
I’m on month 2 for my first attempt at oaking, following the instructions you outlined above. I might have to pull a sample in a day or so to check how it’s progressing, and see if I want to wait another month.
 
loveofrose said:
Yes, it’s for post fermentation. Yeast can breakdown vanillin in primary fermentation, so I wouldn’t suggest adding there.

I only reuse the Xoakers to smoke meat!
Click to expand...
Wondering if you tested....if ya double the # of xoakers used does the req'd soak time get cut in half?

Cheers[emoji111]
 
Do you let the xoakers just sit peacefully doing their thing or do you end up periodically agitating/swirling the mead as its aging & oaking?
 
Since Xoakers are spheres, 90% sits under the mead naturally. I do swirl occasionally just to aid diffusion, but Brownian motion does just fine if you age 3+ months.
 

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