I remember chunky 5 mph bumpers. Bring those back and the cost would have been $0! Gas or EV.
Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?
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Bilsch
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I can't see how this is much different then a Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche ect. They all cost huge dollars to fix, even small stuff.
To me this is similar to the other edge cases that are tossed about to scare people away from EV adoption. I mean how many people will actually get in an accident? Has to be a pretty low percent. I've personally only had 4 accidents in my 45 years of driving.
Meanwhile with gas you are 100% going to pay 3-5 times more for fuel with 100% chance it is going to cost a lot more for PM maintenance.
Personally I'll take the save money every day option because the odds are better.
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PCABrewing
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Early battery development (70s & 80s) focusing on automotive applications included LiAl/FeS designs that had to operate at 450c. Talk about temperature management overhead
Fortunately today's batteries are exponentially better both in cycles and environmental tolerance. But they still need to be kept warm enough and part of the current drain is the need to heat themselves if they get too cold and that costs power.
So while a garaged vehicle might not notice the winter in the northern states, a carport vehicle won't be so lucky and could deplete its' charge quite a bit.
Use case makes a big difference.
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Anyone who has worked on a farm knows what a cold battery means! I was just out heating the battery of my tractor to get it to turn over (and use some power to heat the diesel). One of my issues beside range, is size. We carry up to 7 on some trips (two small ones) but 5 adult size and there is no EV that comes close. It is hard to find even with gas. We have a KIA Telluride which is the best car we have ever owned that can do it. We would love to have a Hybrid that could. Years ago, we thought about a hybrid, but even with the subsidies, gas would have had to been over $5.54 to break even after 6 years at our normal driving. And we could not take all the people we normally would. Based on our own needs, it simply will not work.
I personally no longer drive (years) and wish there was more reliable public transport, I live in the DFW metroplex, but outlying and not easy to get to a pickup places (miles). When I do get on a commuter train, I am surprised how little they are used.
I personally no longer drive (years) and wish there was more reliable public transport, I live in the DFW metroplex, but outlying and not easy to get to a pickup places (miles). When I do get on a commuter train, I am surprised how little they are used.
PCABrewing
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I was a dealer mechanic in the 70s and 80s. Those things had hydraulic cylinders that they mounted to. It was not unusual for a car that was hit to have them ruined and in need of replacement, and the cylinders were not cheap. The bumper could be fine, maybe a scratch to the chrome but the impact absorption cylinders would be collapsed with their oil dripping out.
Frequently people would just pull the bumper back out. They looked fine, didn't incur the replacement cost but the impact protection was gone.
So while it wasn't free, it was still cheaper than today with the molded covers and honeycomb impact absorption matrices. Modern design is sacrificial in the pursuit of occupant protection and they do a darn good job of that.
BTW that is not an EV-specific thing, it has been going on for decades. Take a look at Corvettes from ~1973 on to today.
And I would not be surprised if the same repair cost the same or double on a luxury import.
I can think of plenty of evenings where my dad had to go plug in a heater pointed at the front of a tractor because he wanted to use it the next day.
We would also really like a 7 passenger vehicle. I was looking hard at the Rivian R1S for a minute, but remembered that the next vehicle we get will probably also end up as mini-me's first vehicle. No teenage kid needs to be driving around a vehicle he can cram 6 or 7 buddies into. That's a recipe for trouble.
PCABrewing
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Did you ever use the trashcan lid (metal) loaded with burning charcoal slipped under the engine to warm the oil (and everything else) so that you could get the engine to crank?
PCABrewing
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My wife just traded in her Subaru Outback (talk about high cost of ownership) for a Highlander Hybrid AWD.
She was just looking for the similar cargo and people carrying of the Outback but the Highlander met and exceeded her requirements. It is seven passenger, tows 3K pounds and has room for the dog crate for weekend events.
Fortunately all the mini-me's are out of the house but your caution is appreciated.
She works at the hospital and cannot call-in for snow days so the AWD met the needs.
So-far pretty happy with it and fuel mileage beats the Outback which was surprisingly good for AWD.
Beats my Corolla by a couple MPG.
Can't say we could go pure EV yet.
The rumors about the R2S have started already. It's supposed to be a 5 seater, and be available in '27. If that doesn't get delayed, I would love to test drive it. My better half might balk at giving up the Stellantis-Chrystler vehicle, as that's the brand her family prefer, but that company is dragging it's heels going full BEV, and I really want a BEV with AWD & a frunk.
If charging networks are much improved by then, Jeep doesn't have a good option (AWD, either a BEV with over 300mi* per full charge, or a PHEV with 50-70 miles on a full charge and a range extender with better efficiency than 32mpg), and Rivian is doing well getting their R2S out on schedule, I might push the issue a little, but I doubt she'll go for it. A test drive would be fun, though.
*Reserving the right to increase this depending on towing range and how charging networks expand
If charging networks are much improved by then, Jeep doesn't have a good option (AWD, either a BEV with over 300mi* per full charge, or a PHEV with 50-70 miles on a full charge and a range extender with better efficiency than 32mpg), and Rivian is doing well getting their R2S out on schedule, I might push the issue a little, but I doubt she'll go for it. A test drive would be fun, though.
*Reserving the right to increase this depending on towing range and how charging networks expand
Im hellbent on a rivian pickup once i know they’re gonna stick around like Tesla.
I have one of those "jet" propane heaters. About 30 minutes and ready to go. In the 21 event (- F for a week), my only water was melted snow heated by wood fire for my cows. I needed the tractor bucket for the snow and to melt to water. They drank about 10 gallons a day, That is a lot of snow, No cows at present, but loaded wood to put on porch in case that is my only heat, BTW, cows love spent grain.Did you ever use the trashcan lid (metal) loaded with burning charcoal slipped under the engine to warm the oil (and everything else) so that you could get the engine to crank?
Man, I better stop carrying my cellphone in my pants pocket. I'd hate for it to explode next to a part of my body with lots of nerve endings.
Don’t do any google searches for that. You may no longer carry a phone!
I'm going to be so bored when I go to the bathroom and can't scroll the HBT meme threads.
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Take it back to Tesla service center, unless it’s for tires. For small issues they have sent the repairman to me, he drove up in a little ford delivery van and fixed it right in my driveway once, and changed the 12v battery at my office once. Most of the time it hasn’t cost me a cent, I had to pay for the battery though as it wasn’t covered by the extended warranty.
Bilsch
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Thank goodness someone came in here to warn us of this impending danger. I may have to sell my electric cars tomorrow.
On the other hand if you look up the statistics gas and diesel vehicles are 61 times more likely to burst into flames then an EV.
Hmm what should I do?
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I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll be around for a while, but I'm not betting on it yet. What is your criteria for being confident that Rivian will be around for long enough that you'd buy one?
The first R1T truck was delivered in September '21. I'm surprised to see that the first of the R1S was being delivered around that same time. The company was apparently founded in 2009. The R1T and R1S were announced at the very end of '17. I think both Rivian vehicles have weathered some recalls.
It would help me if some dealerships / official maintenance shops would open up near locations I am likely to live by over the next decade.
For me, the R2S specifically would have to be available when they're already predicting it will, have an AWD option with a price in the ballpark of a Grand Cherokee, meet some range requirements in less than ideal circumstances, and be a comfortable and efficient ride we can see handing down to a kid after we put the first x-many thousand miles on it.
And a bunch of other fine print that would make my post even more boring.
But I'm getting away from my original question. What are you looking for that will convince you that Rivian is going to be around for a while?
Rickshaws, clearly. You pull on odd days, I'll pull on even.
edit: In all seriousness, diesel is a much safer fluid to have around than gasoline. Not sure how it stacks up to large batteries.
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Do you actually believe that EV car batteries are the same as the batteries used on small bikes, scooters, etc?
This is why my kids are no longer in public school.
Perhaps the post needed a /s? : )
Same thing, service centers. And proven integration with Tesla’s charging network.
I have 3 Tesla service centers relatively close to me, one is very close. There’s about 10 supercharger locations within 5 miles of my house. Not that I need those, but its nice to know just in case, especially when pushing it on the return leg of a road trip.
If Rivian gets to that level, I’m in. I love that pickup. Sightings tease me almost daily.
Oh I'm sure that when they start shipping with NACS and don't need an adapter that it'll go smoothly. Money is changing hands, Tesla is obligated to do something for those vehicles.
I'm still leery of how well all the behind the scenes legal stuff will go, but it should be pretty smooth for customers.
Yeah, my wife is the office manager for a medical practice. One of the doctors is married to another doctor, and he had a Model S. He had a collision, and he spent MONTHS (IIRC it was >6 months) waiting on Tesla to repair it, until they eventually said they couldn't get the part and the insurance company had to total the vehicle. Definitely left a sour taste in his mouth on Tesla, and he ended up buying the Genesis electric vehicle instead.
It's one reason Tesla is off my list if I get an EV for my next car. They've done a lot of impressive things, but when you decide to try to learn to be an automaker by casting off everything legacy automakers do and starting from scratch, sometimes you miss the things that they do right.
Bilsch
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The wife of a guy who worked for me had a fairly mild accident in an Audi A4 wagon. Had to order the parts from Germany. The wait to be fixed was 14 months.
This is nothing Tesla specific.
To be fair: despite the repair issues, we’re in the market now for a second car, and are absolutely looking at a Model X or another Model Y.
Same thing, service centers. And proven integration with Tesla’s charging network.
I have 3 Tesla service centers relatively close to me, one is very close. There’s about 10 supercharger locations within 5 miles of my house. Not that I need those, but its nice to know just in case, especially when pushing it on the return leg of a road trip.
If Rivian gets to that level, I’m in. I love that pickup. Sightings tease me almost daily.
We have lots of these scooting around.
PCABrewing
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We do as well, I never noticed that they were Rivian. I would not have been surprise to learn that they were complete custom builds by another third-party engineering firm. I am curious what the daily delivery cycle is like.
I.E. do they drive around for a full day or a half-day and just trade the vehicle at some point for a fully loaded and recharged vehicle? I see them as late as 10pm.
Seems like there could be a synergy between load and vehicle range that would work towards Amazon's advantage.
First car I drove regularly back in high school was a Ford Country Squire. Pretty sure I had more than a dozen people in it a time or two. Somehow we all survived.
Fair enough. I suspect a lot of these issues got worse for nearly every automaker during COVID due to supply chain issues (and possibly prioritizing new production over shipping repair parts).
I do think Tesla has had some of the Silicon Valley-esque idea of "fail fast and iterate". Which can be good when you're writing software. Not so good when you have a car that has changed a bunch of its componentry over a 5-year span and you don't have enough spare parts of the car you sold 3 years ago to handle failures/repairs.
There are a lot of things that Tesla has done that were forward-thinking and admirable. But there are also a lot of things that Tesla has done that I think make bad or short-term business sense and the long-term implications bite them in the butt. Such as the idea of making your frames out of single castings which is great for production cost--and terrifyingly expensive if anything EVER needs to be repaired.
Tesla has done some amazing things to work out both the electric powertrain and kickstart the market via the Supercharger network. They made a market where it likely would have stalled w/o robust public charging. But I feel like the "become an automaker" learning curve was a lot steeper than they expected. After all, it's just hardware, right?
PCABrewing
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My girlfriend and I found, that at the time a Country Squire would only hold two people. You must have had a bigger version....
Bilsch
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Here is an article that talks a bit about that.
"In the early days of testing the Rivian vans, some drivers voiced concerns about range. An Amazon spokesperson told CNBC the vans can travel up to 150 miles on a single charge, which is typically plenty of power for a full shift and allows drivers to recharge the vehicle overnight."
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/14/what-its-like-to-deliver-for-amazon-in-new-rivian-electric-vans.html
PCABrewing
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I would have expected their daily delivery miles to be a lot more than 150. I guess it matters how their delivery area is mapped.
But I know that the distribution center nearest us is 25 miles away so one trip out an back to deliver to me is 50 miles.
Their full-charge range might actually be more than 150.
Where do you live, and are you sure their fleet is electrified in your area? My guess would be that there's a lot higher percentage of the fleet electrified in dense urban/suburban areas.
I know where I live (suburban), the nearest distribution center is ~2 mi away
That said, the Shell station nearest the distribution center is constantly mobbed by Amazon delivery trucks, so I know they're not anywhere near 100% electric here.
PCABrewing
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No, the vehicles I see are pretty much all as pictured above.Where do you live, and are you sure their fleet is electrified in your area? My guess would be that there's a lot higher percentage of the fleet electrified in dense urban/suburban areas.
I know where I live (suburban), the nearest distribution center is ~2 mi away
That said, the Shell station nearest the distribution center is constantly mobbed by Amazon delivery trucks, so I know they're not anywhere near 100% electric here.
50 miles off the top isn't that bad since they can group delivery to many small towns and subdivisions at that distance. But that's why I wonder if a given shift might include two full delivery cycles because I could easily see burning 100 miles before lunch.
The routing SW is probably pretty sophisticated.
Yeah, and on my app I get the notification that my package is 10 stops away, I view it on a map and it's <1 mi away, and it still takes an hour to show up.
I don't think they're putting on anywhere near as much mileage as we all assume.
Similar to the USPS talking about electrifying their fleet. We all think "well they're driving literally ALL DAY, how can they have enough range"?? Well, they're driving 50 feet, dropping off mail, driving another 50 feet, dropping off mail, rinse and repeat.
I don't think they're putting on anywhere near as much mileage as we all assume.
Similar to the USPS talking about electrifying their fleet. We all think "well they're driving literally ALL DAY, how can they have enough range"?? Well, they're driving 50 feet, dropping off mail, driving another 50 feet, dropping off mail, rinse and repeat.
PCABrewing
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You might be surprised to learn how many stops they make in 1 mile. I see the same thing with UPS.
I live on a cul-de-sac and I have seen the driver deliver to four of the five homes in one loop. Sometimes they don't even move the truck.
We are obviously Amazon dependent...
lol me too. They just park in the middle and run back and forth from truck to houses.
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