Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[Kharnynb]

While gas fires are more common, you don't have to put a car in a box full of liquid for days to stop it from burning.
As someone from a nation with a lot of car ferries that can take anywhere from 2-12 hours.... I'd rather that the sprinklers work instead of an unquenchable fire on the car deck

 

[Kent88]

A reminder that, while the subjects of electric vehicles and the environment are close, this is not a thread about climate change. We have a thread in the debate section where we discuss that kind of thing.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/04/toyota-claims-battery-breakthrough-electric-cars

 

[Bilsch]

While gas fires are more common, you don't have to put a car in a box full of liquid for days to stop it from burning.
As someone from a nation with a lot of car ferries that can take anywhere from 2-12 hours.... I'd rather that the sprinklers work instead of an unquenchable fire on the car deck

Would you rather try that 65 more times?

 

[Bilsch]

Could be. But this sounds like an effort to minimize or deny the adverse effects of lithium mining. Irrespective of how it compares to salt production, it's believed by some to inflict substantial harms. The Guardian posted this by a "climate justice reporter" who casts a jaundiced eye on the subject.

Even if the article is correct and lithium mines are rather nasty, it just begs the question: would/wouldn't sticking with fossil fuels for cars and trucks be (even) worse than the harm of using electric vehicles?

Other questions include: wouldn't it be better if we drove (and flew!) less, ate less meat, moderated the thermostat settings, etc. etc.? Also, can we find better ways to make steel, concrete, and even salt I guess?

I don't think anyone ever said that mining of lithium was without ecological consequences. The main takeaway should be that lithium based batteries in electric vehicles is by every measure much cleaner as opposed to using petroleum as a transport fuel. Plus these battery materials only need to be mined once then subsequently recycled forever.

 

[Rodent]

Interesting news on EV battery design:

Toyota Claims Breakthrough That Will Lead To 745-Mile EV Battery​

The Japanese automaker says it will soon be able to manufacture a solid-state pack that can charge in 10 minutes.​

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/new...r&cvid=560c588749104caf9ec45b06c3ad8a1b&ei=24
While not here just yet, progress is being made now that most all of the T&M industry is focused on EVs and their power modules

 

[bleme]

Interesting news on EV battery design:

Toyota Claims Breakthrough That Will Lead To 745-Mile EV Battery​

The Japanese automaker says it will soon be able to manufacture a solid-state pack that can charge in 10 minutes.​

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/new...r&cvid=560c588749104caf9ec45b06c3ad8a1b&ei=24
While not here just yet, progress is being made now that most all of the T&M industry is focused on EVs and their power modules

I saw that story yesterday. A Chinese company made a similar claim in 2020. It would be awesome if it is true but, for me, it is in the "I'll believe it when I see it" category.

 

[sibelman]

Many battery breakthroughs have been announced. Progress at the production line has been incremental. This or similar would be great if it translates to the claimed great leap forward.

 

[tracer bullet]

Interesting news on EV battery design:

See just a handful of posts above yours

I'm also in the see-it-to-believe-it camp. I am positive there will be breakthroughs and I really hope for them (especially if it helps lighten up the cars for more sportier intentions). But do feel like it's a headline I've seen every few months now for years.

 

[Rodent]

dang it - I hate making a mistake like that. didn't see it on my phone prior to using my laptop to post

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

dang it - I hate making a mistake like that. didn't see it on my phone prior to using my laptop to post

I wasn't gonna point it out

 

[Bilsch]

The news is awash with so called battery technology breakthroughs. Most of it though is really just the same red herring BS as hydrogen has been for the last 20 plus years. Simply to slow the adoption of current battery technology because something so much better is right around the corner.

IMO the battery with the most promise is the high surface area silicon anode Li ion technology which features faster charging and more than double energy density of the current graphite anode Li ion batteries in common use today. The company Amprius is already manufacturing cells for military drones in Fremont, CA and getting ready to build a second manufacturing site in Colorado.

I believe the game changer is already here.

 

[sibelman]

Anyhow, as regards Toyota: better late than never. Where Nissan led, Toyota has been very slow to follow. Honda even slower.

 

[Bilsch]

We were just talking about the risk of gas cars vs electric cars on ships. Sadly it seems that gas tanks are not easy to put out either.

https://abc7ny.com/newark-nj-firefighters-ship-fire-port-killed/13472286/

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

https://jalopnik.com/no-one-in-the-us-really-wants-to-buy-electric-vehicles-1850622254
Obviously a clickbait headline, but an interesting article nonetheless. Right now EV supply is outstripping EV demand. Cars are sitting unsold on lots, with EV inventory cycles close to double that of ICEV.

Not that this means anything long-term, of course. Right now battery technology is expensive, and it's interesting that some of the models they highlight at having high inventory relative to sales volumes are all expensive (2x Audi models, the GMC Hummer EV, and the Genesis EV). I'd say that market is somewhat saturated right now while a theoretical "budget EV" market is underserved.

I'd love to get a comparison between BEV and ICEV inventory of vehicles in the same class and price range. But the article doesn't have that.

 

[El Whedo]

I'd say that market is somewhat saturated right now while a theoretical "budget EV" market is underserved.

Yep.

I walk or use a bicycle daily.

In the summer I use my motorcycle to run slightly farther errands (90% within ten miles and my bike gets 75-80 MPG). But I'd sure love to have something affordable and enclosed for that type of errand in the winter.

Under ten K would be my cost limit, otherwise I'd just keep using my Subaru. If I could get something with a hundred mile range (or even fifty mile range) for under 5K I'd not think twice, but it would be just a winter driver and I've heard that the batteries have problems with REAL winters. This last winter was fairly mild, but we still got to -38F. A heater would be mandatory, but no other amenities would be needed, not even a radio.

 

[mac_1103]

a theoretical "budget EV" market is underserved

That market is theoretical precisely because it is so woefully underserved.

 

[sibelman]

woefully underserved

The price range of EVs available in the U.S. tilts heavily toward the high end, led by Tesla. I guess margins are higher in this range, but you'd think one of the majors would find a path toward profit with something costing less than two Corollas, that could therefore sell in higher volume. Yet, new entrants seem to all start north of $40K. This "has to" change.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

That market is theoretical precisely because it is so woefully underserved.

I'd argue it's theoretical / woefully underserved based on nothing more than economics. You can get a big battery / long range, or you can get an EV cheap. You can't get both. And I'd argue that range anxiety is still an issue for a lot of people. Especially people who may have lower incomes and can't live as close to work as they want, so might have long commutes exacerbating range anxiety.

I'd also note that a lot of the people who might be interested in the lower-end models may also be renters or apartment dwellers who have more difficulty charging than homeowners who can charge at home.

So the people that can afford the low-end models is because that's all they can afford, and correlates with living conditions that make some of the biggest advantages of BEVs (charging at home, and taking advantage of the lower electricity costs at home compared to 3rd-party chargers) are not there for those consumers.

 

[mac_1103]

You can get a big battery / long range, or you can get an EV cheap. You can't get both. And I'd argue that range anxiety is still an issue for a lot of people.

I won't disagree with that directly but I will say this: A $17,000 Kia Rio weighs 2700 lbs and has a 120 hp engine. A $27,000 Chevy Bolt weighs 3600 lbs and has a 200 hp electric motor. Maybe the price difference could be a little less if the size and power differences were a little smaller. And maybe 250 miles of range wouldn't need such a big battery if you were building a smaller, less powerful car.

Especially people who may have lower incomes and can't live as close to work as they want, so might have long commutes exacerbating range anxiety.

Those people aren't buying new cars anyway.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I won't disagree with that directly but I will say this: A $17,000 Kia Rio weighs 2700 lbs and has a 120 hp engine. A $27,000 Chevy Bolt weighs 3600 lbs and has a 200 hp electric motor. Maybe the price difference could be a little less if the size and power differences were a little smaller. And maybe 250 miles of range wouldn't need such a big battery if you were building a smaller, less powerful car.

Batteries are heavy. That's the reason for the weight, and the weight is why it needs more horsepower. It's not like a Bolt is trying to turn a <5s 0-60 time like a Tesla.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/americas-new-weight-problem-electric-cars/

 

[mac_1103]

It's not like a Bolt is trying to turn a <5s 0-60 time like a Tesla.

But 6.3 seconds isn't exactly crawling. Almost a second faster than the afore-mentioned Kia Rio. And about 5 seconds faster than my Prius C.

I'm not an engineer. I have no idea how much smaller the battery and motor could be if consumers would accept something like 7.5 seconds to go from 0-60 while maintaining a 200+ mile range. But I do suspect that there probably are ways to slim down entry level EVs. The manufacturers obviously don't think those would sell, and they may very well be right.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

When I googled quickly I got 8.2s for the Kia, and 7.15s for the Bolt.

I am an engineer, and knowing how we think, they're not trying to make the Bolt big and heavy for its own sake. That said, I'm sure they have range and performance guidelines from marketing to make a viable product.

Here's what you get for 2700 lbs though.

https://www.myevreview.com/tech-specs/volkswagen/e-up/61-kw
161 mile range and 11.9s 0-100kph (0-62mph).

I'm guessing GM brass didn't think that would be a compelling car for the North American market lol...

 

[mac_1103]

VW brass didn't seem to think so either. There's also a whole lot of ICE car models sold in Europe that you'll never see on this side of the Atlantic. I don't think they made the Bolt big and heavy for the sake of big and heavy either. I think they made it big and heavy for the sake of being fast enough so US drivers wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

 

[tracer bullet]

https://caterhamcars.com/us/models/projectv
This is my kind of EV. I've driven on the right side of a car a few times in Ireland, but wonder if they'll have a left hand drive version someday.

Oh, and it'll be $100,000, maybe more. I wonder how much I could lie to my wife about the price...

 

[day_trippr]

Historically Caterham has offered LHD as an option, but I would assume that option is actualized with significant delay vs addressing their home market...

Cheers!

 

[sibelman]

I think they made it big and heavy for the sake of being fast enough so US drivers wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

I drive a Bolt. I think the battery size (i. e. range) drives the weight much more than the motor HP. A less powerful motor would save some weight, but that giant battery is really heavy.

I agree that tuning range (and, perhaps, power) back would make for a lighter and less expensive car. Gotta say, though, it's sweet to drive to vacation spots without having to rent an ICE car. We couldn't do that with our 2012 Leaf.

You could be right about power and marketing (and many Americans). Both Bolt and Leaf accelerate more than adequately (unless you're a true lead-foot with an unhealthy need for speed ). These aren't for racing. Starting from low or zero speed, the skinny low-rolling-resistance tires can be the limiting factor - they sometimes break loose when I feel a sudden need to goose it.

 

[mac_1103]

A less powerful motor would save some weight, but that giant battery is really heavy.

My point was that a less powerful motor might allow them to save some battery weight.

 

[Kent88]

 

[day_trippr]

I might have missed it but I don't recall seeing this study linked here...
https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/cars-gas-powered-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-late-2022/
Don't know really what to make of it save for the cost of "fuel" wasn't all that different between EV and ICE in 2022...

Cheers!

 

[Kent88]

I might have missed it but I don't recall seeing this study linked here...
https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/cars-gas-powered-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-late-2022/
Don't know really what to make of it save for the cost of "fuel" wasn't all that different between EV and ICE in 2022...

Cheers!

A quick Google suggests that they're a group that likes to put out EV hit pieces. I haven't read what they've put out there yet, but I am skeptical.

 

[hout17]

There's a Wal-Mart not far from my house. They have what looks like an 8 bay electric charging station in the parking lot. I thought it was cool then I realized they were powered by diesel engines. Kind of interesting in a weird way lol.

I think I'll see what the world brings in the next 3-5 years by then I may feel comfy enough to switch a vehicle over to electric. It sounds like the battery market innovation is really taking off.

 

[Kent88]

There's a Wal-Mart not far from my house. They have what looks like an 8 bay electric charging station in the parking lot. I thought it was cool then I realized they were powered by diesel engines.

Huh? That sounds strange. Is there a nearby generator that kicks on every time someone plugs an EV into that charging station?

 

[day_trippr]

This is also interesting in a weird way

[I'm sure that's totally a Photoshop confection ]

 

[hout17]

Huh? That sounds strange. Is there a nearby generator that kicks on every time someone plugs an EV into that charging station?

Yeah, you can hear it. The stations are out in the middle of the parking lot and the generators are enclosed with 8' fencing right next to them.

 

[Kent88]

That's strange. Electrify America stations, I assume?

One of my frequented grocery stores has free level two charging with small wind turbines and maybe a small solar panel right next to them. I assume the bulk of the electrons I get are from the grid, though.

 

[Kent88]

This is also interesting in a weird way

View attachment 826628

[I'm sure that's totally a Photoshop confection ]

I think most (if not all) EVs are designed so one can't drive away while plugged in. I have wondered for a while why they don't put a charging port in the trunk/frunk, in case someone wants to expand range with some extra battery, but it's probably to keep people from putting small gas engines in there.

 

[sibelman]

I might have missed it but I don't recall seeing this study linked here...
https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/cars-gas-powered-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-late-2022/
Don't know really what to make of it save for the cost of "fuel" wasn't all that different between EV and ICE in 2022...

Cheers!

This doesn't align with my experience. Not even close. Unless the following calculations have serious errors.

With all taxes, surcharges, and fees, I'm paying $0.175 per kWh (I had thought it was much lower). My Chevy Bolt gets about 5 miles per kWh -- more in summer and on city streets, less in winter and on highways. That's about $0.035 per mile. Of course, other areas will have more expensive electricity. But read on.

At $4 per gallon (prices have been running well above that here), a gasoline-powered car would need to get 115 mpg to equal the "fuel" cost of my electric car. At 45 mpg (e.g., with a Prius), gas would have to drop to $1.57 per gallon to equal the cost of driving my Bolt EV. Realistically, a 45 mpg Prius and $4/gal. gas means about $0.89 per mile in fuel cost - 2½ times my Bolt EV.

There are reasons to stick with an ICE vehicle. Fuel cost is not one of them as far as I can tell.

YMMV, truly!

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

This doesn't align with my experience. Not even close. Unless the following calculations have serious errors.

With all taxes, surcharges, and fees, I'm paying $0.175 per kWh (I had thought it was much lower). My Chevy Bolt gets about 5 miles per kWh -- more in summer and on city streets, less in winter and on highways. That's about $0.035 per mile. Of course, other areas will have more expensive electricity. But read on.

At $4 per gallon (prices have been running well above that here), a gasoline-powered car would need to get 115 mpg to equal the "fuel" cost of my electric car. At 45 mpg (e.g., with a Prius), gas would have to drop to $1.57 per gallon to equal the cost of driving my Bolt EV. Realistically, a 45 mpg Prius and $4/gal. gas means about $0.89 per mile in fuel cost - 2½ times my Bolt EV.

There are reasons to stick with an ICE vehicle. Fuel cost is not one of them as far as I can tell.

YMMV, truly!

Dang that's a good electricity rate, compared to here. I looked at my most recent bill and I think I was somewhere around $0.36/kWh...

BTW I actually clicked through to the full report. What they said about "mostly home charging" was that the majority of *trips* were using home charging, that was not true of the mileage. I think their "mostly home charging" assumed that 25% of your miles were driven based upon commercial charging, because of the prevalence of longer trips for Americans. Which of course costs about 3x home rates in many places. Bear in mind I was skimming, so I may have gotten a little of that wrong--but I think it's based on 25% of your charging being commercial.

I'm not sure I buy it, personally. A lot of their other points (road taxes, gas prices, electricity rates) were based on the state of Michigan. Having been there many times, and having grown up in the Midwest, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of folks in Michigan are driving longer distances on a daily basis than you are in Portland or I am in SoCal.

So this would be a question for the folks here... How often do you actually use a commercial charger, as opposed to charging at home?

 

[Kent88]

So this would be a question for the folks here... How often do you actually use a commercial charger, as opposed to charging at home?

I'm driving a PHEV, and we rarely take it out of the tri-county area because it doesn't have much space. I have never paid to use a commercial charger. It's charged in my garage, or at a free level 2 charger.