PicoBrew Pico users

[bobbob911]

Okay, I just read a bit more on oxidation, and you're right - there's no way those effects would show up on the very first pour. Gotta be incomplete ferment.

I was going to rack this batch tomorrow evening (6 days ferment, 5 days on dry hops), but maybe I'll wait another day or two.

 

[VagueSkunk]

Gotta say it again guys. Why are you pitching the whole pack! Pitch half. Pitch half. And pitch half (or a little less). When there is too much yeast they get lazy and don't complete the conditioning phase. Start there please.

Where in that process did you rack and cold crash? That's a pretty quick time between dry hopping and carbonation.

There was 24 hours between racking to the 2nd keg and when carbonating began. In that time temp was dropped from 68* to 36*f. The beer is quite clear, it's a nice light copper color. It looks like an IPA, it just doesnt smell or taste like one

 

[jrb03]

There was 24 hours between racking to the 2nd keg and when carbonating began. In that time temp was dropped from 68* to 36*f. The beer is quite clear, it's a nice light copper color. It looks like an IPA, it just doesnt smell or taste like one

So you only dry hopped for 2 days if you started on the 30th and racked on the 1st?

 

[VagueSkunk]

So you only dry hopped for 2 days if you started on the 30th and racked on the 1st?

I racked on the 2nd, it was a Monday. Another data point: my previous batch was the Pliny clone. I left the dry hop charge in that keg for over a week, still got 0 hope aroma or flavor.
All batches have been using standard fermentation, that fast ferment stuff is some weird voodoo and I dont trust it ;P

 

[jrb03]

I racked on the 2nd, it was a Monday. Another data point: my previous batch was the Pliny clone. I left the dry hop charge in that keg for over a week, still got 0 hope aroma or flavor.
All batches have been using standard fermentation, that fast ferment stuff is some weird voodoo and I dont trust it ;P

I find that hard to believe. So either Picobrew is sending old stale hops, or you have some other off flavor masking everything, or a lot of yeast still in the beer. Did drinking it make you gassy?

Have you ever bottle conditioned home Brew? If you pour even a bit of the yeast cake that forms during natural bottle conditioning it ruins the whole glass.

 

[bobbob911]

It's day 11 now of my Little RIPA fermentation, I just pulled up on the fast ferment valve and there is still significant gas escaping (I've been checking this the last couple of days)

Should I wait until this is no longer happening before I rack?

 

[VagueSkunk]

I find that hard to believe. So either Picobrew is sending old stale hops, or you have some other off flavor masking everything, or a lot of yeast still in the beer. Did drinking it make you gassy?

Have you ever bottle conditioned home Brew? If you pour even a bit of the yeast cake that forms during natural bottle conditioning it ruins the whole glass.

I'm quite familiar with yeastiness...in fact I kinda like the taste of it, believe it or not!
I had a couple more glasses last night and I'm definitely picking up on a moderate butterscotch smell and taste. Not as pronounced as the last batch, but it's still there and noticeable.
As an experiment I'm going to get one of those 1 gallon kits from northern brewer and brew it up on my stove. I'm going to ferment in one of my kegs, then rack to another keg and carb. So I'm pretty much going to remove the pico unit itself from the equation and see what happens.

 

[VagueSkunk]

It's day 11 now of my Little RIPA fermentation, I just pulled up on the fast ferment valve and there is still significant gas escaping (I've been checking this the last couple of days)

Should I wait until this is no longer happening before I rack?

I'd wait the full 14 days just to be on the safe side, it wont hurt anything.

 

[bobbob911]

I borrowed someone's Facebook account to browse the picobrewers forum - it's *full* of people having the same problems as us with IPA/IIPAs. One guy says he has it figured out after 15 batches, his method is:

- pitch half pack of yeast
- FF ferment for 7 days for normal beers, 10 days for bigger beers
- try to keep ferment temp to 60-70 for the first 4-5 days, then 70 for the rest
- he starts carbing and cold crashing after ferment, then racks and continues to carb after 2 days
- no word on when or how long to add dry hops

 

[jrb03]

Yup. Half pack of yeast, proper fermentation time, and a good cold crash are the ticket. Also I don't think your dry hopping long enough. Another member on there who says his IPAs are great is fermenting for 2 weeks then dry hopping for a week.

I have adjusted my views from early in this thread, longer fermentation is needed so the yeast can clean up. If you pitch too much yeast they don't finish the clean up job, and that homebrew taste will mask your hops. IPA needs to be really clean.

 

[jrb03]

It's day 11 now of my Little RIPA fermentation, I just pulled up on the fast ferment valve and there is still significant gas escaping (I've been checking this the last couple of days)

Should I wait until this is no longer happening before I rack?

The pull the valve trick does not work. What's happening is the FF valve is slightly carbonating the beer by the nature of how it works. It will release pressure until the beer is flat. That's why we just need to go by days, it's pretty pointless to take gravity readings on Pico batches which would be the proper test. That's a bigger beer so your close with 11 days. Fermentation was done in 5 or less days but your in the cleanup phase.

If you really want to use the pull-up method you can release pressure once an hour until its flat. My tests show it takes about 5 or so releases to make the beer flat and no more releases. But again, if you do that now your gonna be done, just have to decide if you believe in more cleanup time and how long. I'm using 10-14 days depending on beer size.

Don't forget to cold crash a couple days before you rack.

 

[bobbob911]

Not just that, but the instructions to pitch the hops after 3 days are clearly bogus. I'll wait for complete ferment next time. In fact, I'll be hopping into the serving keg so they will stay on until the keg is kicked

Although, that plan will mean I can't cold crash before racking unless I want to rack at fridge temp (or I could bring the beer back up to room temperature while dry hopping I guess)

 

[jrb03]

Not just that, but the instructions to pitch the hops after 3 days are clearly bogus. I'll wait for complete ferment next time. In fact, I'll be hopping into the serving keg so they will stay on until the keg is kicked

It's pretty sad the instruction manual is so bad. A lot could be improved upon. From what I've gathered the brewers didn't have much input because they have given direction on Facebook and their forums that disagrees with the manual, like 1/2 pack of yeast and longer fermentation times. I would expect an updated manual soon. It has been updated a couple times already from the one shipped with my early bird unit.

 

[bobbob911]

It's possible that the FF fermentation times are more accurate at the high end of the temperature range (80-84)?

 

[jrb03]

The higher the temperature the quicker the "active fermentation". That's when no more co2 will escape which will be around 3-7 days depending on temperature the higher the faster. Their times don't leave anything for the important cleanup phase though, the time after active fermentation where the yeast cleanup off flavors.

 

[Lbarouf]

Is everybody using distilled water? I wonder why so many batches taste foul.

Which pico pack would you recommend to start with as a first batch? The easiest one to succeed? I plan on doing 2 batches, 1FF that always worked for someone, and 1 regular fermentation. I have a seedling mat with thermostat to maintain the temperature. Taste before anything else, I don't mind waiting a month for a good brew.

 

[VagueSkunk]

Is everybody using distilled water? I wonder why so many batches taste foul.

Which pico pack would you recommend to start with as a first batch? The easiest one to succeed? I plan on doing 2 batches, 1FF that always worked for someone, and 1 regular fermentation. I have a seedling mat with thermostat to maintain the temperature. Taste before anything else, I don't mind waiting a month for a good brew.

I've used distilled water in all 4 of my batches. If the next batch is as bad as these last 4, I'm going to try a switch to RO water.

 

[bobbob911]

I'm certainly using distilled water. I don't think that's the problem.

I've been looking at wine coolers as a possible fermentation chamber. They are typically digitally controllable from 45-75 degrees, and often completely silent (thermoelectric cooling rather than compressor)

 

[VagueSkunk]

I'm certainly using distilled water. I don't think that's the problem.

I've been looking at wine coolers as a possible fermentation chamber. They are typically digitally controllable from 45-75 degrees, and often completely silent (thermoelectric cooling rather than compressor)

I started out looking at that option as well, but eventually decided to go with a chest freezer for the following reasons:

- Size. Typical wine fridges will only hold 1 keg. Often some modification is required in order to make this happen.
- Temp range. Temps are fine for fermenting, but a bit on the warm side for serving. So, I'd still need to figure out something for cooling the keg to serving temp.
- Future proofing. I knew the Pico would only be producing 1.25 gallons of beer but I didnt really realize just how small an amount of beer this is in a practical sense. I know that I'll eventually be moving to brewing 5+ gallon batches, so I bought something that will work with 5 gallon kegs. Wine fridges wont work with the larger kegs.

 

[jrb03]

Here is a post Annie Johnston made on the Facebook group recently on a post from a user expressing frustration with his results thought it would be useful here. She is Picobrews master brewer. Hopefully she doesn't mind me posting it here

Pitch less yeast. After brewing cool the wort in an ice water bath in a Home pail or the sink. If you cool overnight that is fine, too. Pitch a teaspoon of yeast or about 5 grams. Use a clean wire whisk to whip the yeast in. Don't go nuts but get some action for about 15 seconds. Put on the black seal with filled airlock. Set off to the side undisturbed for 10 days. On day 10, put your dry hops in. Leave alone for 3 to 5. Smell the beer on day 3, is that the aroma you desire? If yes, time to rack the beer. Try to not disturb the yeast bed. You can cold condition a beer for a few days if your prefer, to. If Not enough aroma, dry hop longer, then rack. Put the beer in the fridge, cool it down for a few hours the attach your regulator. Gas and drink. I recommend reading about homebrew techniques. A subscription to BYO magazine and their new book is what you need. It's what you all need. I just got it, that and Experimental Homebrewing are a wealth of information.

 

[bobbob911]

I assume that, when using FF adapter, a good keg shake works just as well as whisking the yeast in.

 

[jrb03]

Ya like the manual says. That's what I do.

 

[VagueSkunk]

That's actually quite helpful, thanks for posting that!
I like how she pretty much admits that the provided instructions are useless. I've half a mind to try and get store credit/refund for the 2 batches that were ruined because I followed their instructions...

 

[bobbob911]

It's frustrating that she recommends we all need subscriptions to homebrew magazines. No, what we needed were instructions that were accurate and not completely wrong on almost every step!

 

[jrb03]

Agree, like I said before I don't think she had much input on the manual for whatever reason. Or they tried to dumb it down too simple.

 

[bobbob911]

I just bounced some of this feedback back to the Pico support team, and they were a little dodgy about the benefits of pitching less yeast, fermenting for more time, pitching hops later, etc. Pretty much what I expected.

One thing they did stress - Aerate that wort! Definitely stir the wort for 30-60 seconds with a whisk before pitching the yeast. If using the FF adapter shake the keg vigorously for another minute afterwards too. I don't think its possible to over-aerate by stirring or shaking.

 

[jrb03]

Not sure why your going to Pico for brewing support, they are the ones who wrote the manual, and they are not going to officially tell you to do something different than the manual, until there is a new version lol. They are great for all other support in my experience, but I will not be asking them anything related to the brewing process. Their master brewer Annie is great, but you need to catch her on Facebook which is sporadic, and she will give plenty of unfiltered advice. She did comment yesterday that she is pushing for a rewrite of the manual and working on some instructional videos.

 

[bobbob911]

I have been corresponding with them through my last couple batches of beer. I suggested to them they should definitely update their documentation based on the instructions above regarding amount of yeast and fermentation/hopping times. The response was:

- pitching extra yeast should make no difference
- Don't wait longer than Day 3 to pitch the dry hops
- Dry hop aroma cannot be "blown out the FF valve" by CO2 production during fermentation - suggestion is that yeast has not floculated sufficiently yet
- Their QC cycle ferments at 75F for 5-6 days
- They suspect the problems people are having are largely with improperly aerated wort.

So, I'll take all the suggestions from everywhere - pitch half yeast, longer ferment/hopping cycle, and I will certainly make sure to stir and shake the crap out of the wort before/after I pitch the yeast

I plan to start another batch of Deaf Turtle tomorrow. Can't wait!

 

[jrb03]

Please don't do any of that, it's all what's in the manual and wrong. Do what Annie suggested in the post. Even the aeration is bs if your using dry yeast. If using liquid then yes aeration is more important. I'm not saying don't shake your keg, I'm shaking the crap out of mine after pitching.

Your gonna be tempted to pitch more than half, I know you. Sanitize a tsp and pitch 1 tsp no more!

 

[Lbarouf]

How do you pitch your yeast?
Sprinkle over wort or rehydrate the yeast at fermenting temperature and inoculation for 30 some minutes? Aerate after in both cases.

 

[bobbob911]

I sprinkle it dry into the wort. I'll aerate before and afterwards next time.

 

[VagueSkunk]

Man, these mf'ers really need to get their **** together. Head brewer says one thing, manual says something different and then support staff says something else.
Brewing a batch of Stingray IPA right now, going to try pitching just 1tsp of yeast and then ferment at 68*, then probably (havent decided yet, might want to remove this variable and just keep it steady at 68* to isolate the problem) ramp it up to 70* for a couple days at the end of the 2 week period.

 

[jrb03]

Do you quick chill? The four things I have seen them blame poor results on, overnight chill, full pack of yeast, poor aeration, too short fermentation. Try doing those with my personal addition of a good cold crash. And wait the 10 days to start dry hopping. I know, long list. We are searching for that perfect IPA! (For you guys, I'm not an IPA guy lol)

I'll go ahead and throw another monkey wrench in now, liquid yeast. I did a double brew day splitting a vial of liquid yeast rather than using the dry yeast included. Amazing results. Two of the better beers I have brewed in years of brewing. I know it's not the Pico, great results can be achieved. Sunday I did another double batch with liquid yeast, I will give a better report once I get a second data point.

 

[VagueSkunk]

Making my 1st attempt a quick chilling now. I dont know how well it's going to work since I dont have much ice on hand.
Few things I noticed from this brew session:
- New pico firmware. Looks we're at version 1 now.
- This brew went a lot quicker than past sessions. Like almost an hour quicker. Brew was done in 2 hours and 25 minutes.
- Screen listed an ABV of 7.9% during the brewing process. When I took a reading using my refractometer, I only got 11.4 brix, which translates to 1.046 so I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to be reaching that 7.9abv when this is all fermented out. Not sure just what went wrong to cause this.
- Checking the log of this brew and there were some pretty wide temp fluctuations during the brew cycle, much different behavior from my previous 4 batches. I'm guessing something changed with this latest firmware update. Maybe the machine is measuring temp differently or reporting it differently. Either way, the log shows very large temp swings in very short time frames. Attached images show this. The 1st image shows my last brew session with the older firmware, 2nd image shows the brew session from earlier today with the new firmware.
I've used this same refractometer to measure OG on 2 previous batches and it has been spot on both times.

 

[aceuass]

Not sure if it can be posted but got a $200 off the Pico and $300 off Zymatic codes from picobrew.com
Just enter at checkout
pico200
or
zymatic300
Couldnt resist the price of the Pico, looking forward to playing around with this
Cheers
Paul

 

[ooom416354]

If that is the case why not just use some of the massive amount of recipes that currently exist.

Where are these recipes? I have the PicoBrew Pico, I can't seem to find any recipes for this on the site. Do you have a link?

Also isn't the library set up for Zymatic users?

 

[Anyhowe]

Where are these recipes? I have the PicoBrew Pico, I can't seem to find any recipes for this on the site. Do you have a link?

Also isn't the library set up for Zymatic users?

The recipies are in the form of a whole bunch ( and growing) list of PICO packs. These are just like Zymatic recipies but they are already packaged/put together. Just like getting a recipie from someone or somewhere else.

 

[BMacUC]

Making my 1st attempt a quick chilling now. I dont know how well it's going to work since I dont have much ice on hand.
Few things I noticed from this brew session:
- New pico firmware. Looks we're at version 1 now.
- This brew went a lot quicker than past sessions. Like almost an hour quicker. Brew was done in 2 hours and 25 minutes.
- Screen listed an ABV of 7.9% during the brewing process. When I took a reading using my refractometer, I only got 11.4 brix, which translates to 1.046 so I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to be reaching that 7.9abv when this is all fermented out. Not sure just what went wrong to cause this.
- Checking the log of this brew and there were some pretty wide temp fluctuations during the brew cycle, much different behavior from my previous 4 batches. I'm guessing something changed with this latest firmware update. Maybe the machine is measuring temp differently or reporting it differently. Either way, the log shows very large temp swings in very short time frames. Attached images show this. The 1st image shows my last brew session with the older firmware, 2nd image shows the brew session from earlier today with the new firmware.
I've used this same refractometer to measure OG on 2 previous batches and it has been spot on both times.

Wow, yeah that second graph does not look right. You should reach out to support if you haven't done so already and share that with them.

 

[VagueSkunk]

Wow, yeah that second graph does not look right. You should reach out to support if you haven't done so already and share that with them.

Did that earlier today, exchanged a few emails with them and seeing where it leads.

 

[jrb03]

That second graph looks bad. I've brewed 4 batches with the new firmware, graphs still look like always.

Another Facebook tip, there is a right and wrong way to insert the hop pack into the hop cradle. The holes on bottom of hop pack will be covered if installed wrong. I'm not gonna open a hop pack to take a picture, but next time you brew pay attention. I never noticed this myself.