Philly Beer Bar Raided....

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
klyph said:
Because of this statement:


Implying that home brewed beer is something you need to be protected from.
Click to expand...

I assumed he was implying that it is something that is completely illegal to sell in anyway shape or form in PA... aka "Not legit" - as opposed to the very legit brewery he directly preceded that statement with.


heck, I brew in my backyard - being outside is half the fun.
 
Jaysus said:
But hey, thanks for the iDiagnosis. Sometimes it bleeds when I wipe, can you help with that too?
Click to expand...

My post contained no diagnosis. Your trolling needs practice.
I thought it was done out of spite from an anonymous tipster? ;)
Click to expand...

"anonymous tipster" means they're not telling you who or why they did it. They are "protecting" you from that knowledge. ;)
 
Jaysus said:
I assumed he was implying that it is something that is completely illegal to sell in anyway shape or form in PA... aka "Not legit" - as opposed to the very legit brewery he directly preceded that statement with.


heck, I brew in my backyard - being outside is half the fun.
Click to expand...

The problem is, none of the confiscated beers were brewed by amateurs, and they are legal in most other non-totalitarian states. He took this incident that had nothing to do with home brewing and used it to take a jab at our hobby. Poor journalistic practice to take something completely irrelevant and include it in your article.
 
klyph said:
The problem is, none of the confiscated beers were brewed by amateurs, and they are legal in most other non-totalitarian states. He took this incident that had nothing to do with home brewing and used it to take a jab at our hobby. Poor journalistic practice to take something completely irrelevant and include it in your article.
Click to expand...

I don't think that was his intent. I think he was saying, as Jaysus said, that the point of the registered beer list is, according to the PLCB, to make sure that the beer being sold is legal to sell (the one brewed by a brewer is legit because all the taxes on it have been paid etc, the home brew one is not legit because it is not legal to sell).
 
klyph said:
My post contained no diagnosis. Your trolling needs practice.
Click to expand...

Oh hey, look at that, I misinterpreted the "forced state of paranoid anorexia" jab... kinda like you guys are misinterpreting Nichols' view on home brewers. Seriously, meth labs, moonshine?
 
Jaysus said:
kinda like you guys are misinterpreting Nichols' view on home brewers. Seriously, meth labs, moonshine?
Click to expand...

If you call something illegitimate without backing up your claim, you're enforcing stereotypes. Moonshine and meth labs ARE a stereotype for home brewers sadly, just do a search to see fellow posters having trouble with suspicious neighbors and police. It was a jab.
 
bonzombiekitty said:
I don't think that was his intent. I think he was saying, as Jaysus said, that the point of the registered beer list is, according to the PLCB, to make sure that the beer being sold is legal to sell (the one brewed by a brewer is legit because all the taxes on it have been paid etc, the home brew one is not legit because it is not legal to sell).
Click to expand...

Jaysus said:
Oh hey, look at that, I misinterpreted the "forced state of paranoid anorexia" jab... kinda like you guys are misinterpreting Nichols' view on home brewers. Seriously, meth labs, moonshine?
Click to expand...

Here let me fix the author's quote so that it actually pertains to the situation, and does not contain an arbitrary reference to a product that was not involved in the case.

Harrisburg enforcement officials say the reason is to protect consumers. How else to know whether the beer is from Victory (legitimately registered for distribution) or Monk's Cafe (not registerd for distribution)?
Click to expand...

You see, this revision, though it is much more accurate and appropriate, lacks the sensationalism of his version. Being accurate does not garner the attention that sensationalist yellow journalism does. This man is a troll and a poor journalist IMHO.
 
bonzombiekitty said:
I don't think that was his intent. I think he was saying, as Jaysus said, that the point of the registered beer list is, according to the PLCB, to make sure that the beer being sold is legal to sell (the one brewed by a brewer is legit because all the taxes on it have been paid etc, the home brew one is not legit because it is not legal to sell).
Click to expand...

FWIW, the function of registration is that it's one part of the overall tax process on beer breweries that manufacture, distribute and sell in PA....I don't believe there is any intention to establish any legitimacy. TTB takes care of that part. http://www.ttb.gov/
 
brewt00l said:
FWIW, the function of registration is that it's one part of the overall tax process on beer breweries that manufacture, distribute and sell in PA....I don't believe there is any intention to establish any legitimacy. TTB takes care of that part. http://www.ttb.gov/
Click to expand...

Exactly, they are enforcing tax code. Telling the public that his motivation was to protect consumers is a bold faced lie.
 
I think that you guys all missed that point that Nichols was trying to make. He was being 100% sarcastic.

Re-read the quote and say it out loud to yourself in your favorite sarcastic voice that you normally give the SWMBO. Then it should make a little better sense.
 
evsjeep527 said:
I think that you guys all missed that point that Nichols was trying to make. He was being 100% sarcastic.

Re-read the quote and say it out loud to yourself in your favorite sarcastic voice that you normally give the SWMBO. Then it should make a little better sense.
Click to expand...


That's how I took it... as a tongue in cheek comment.

Jack Curtain is blogging that there's also been a visit to Stockertown:

At least twp PLCB reps, or whoever, were at Stockertown Beverage last night; no beers were seized but orders were given for some beers not to be sold until further notice.

The beat goes on.
Click to expand...
http://jackcurtin.com/ldo/?p=1505

Lew Bryson recently posted the hearings have been scheduled for April 13th.
 
Lew has an interesting piece on the purpose of brand registration:

http://noplcb.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-does-beer-brand-registration-exist.html

"the registration requirement helps the state assure payment of state beer taxes and helps prosecutors identify alcoholic beverages in drunk-driving cases or any other type of prosecution."
Click to expand...


Joe 6pk has a nice piece on the pointless of the list for legal identification:

http://joesixpack.net/blog/archives/602

Disclaimers posted on the web sites of both the PLCB and the state of Pennsylvania clearly warn that the contents of the sites should not be used for any legal purposes.
Click to expand...

The LOLZ just keep rolling....well, we'll all find out what's up come April 13th.

PA residents, contact your reps and let them know what a crock our liquor code is
 
I am more and more disgusted by distributors. Not so much that they exist but that they are f***ing with laws to take advantage of and monopolize their position. Try getting the general public riled up about that one. Good luck.
 
mightynintendo said:
I am more and more disgusted by distributors. Not so much that they exist but that they are f***ing with laws to take advantage of and monopolize their position. Try getting the general public riled up about that one. Good luck.
Click to expand...

Yes, they have great lobbyists. That's why you get boiler plate responses like the one from that horse's ass earlier. He's already bought and paid for so he needs to hide behind teen drinking to avoid the real discussion.
 
Here is the latest on this disgrace. The rumors now being reported are that this was over Pliny the Younger. The anonymous complainant was rumored to be a competing bar that didn't get any. The ones that got raided got 12 kegs.
 
SteveM said:
Here is the latest on this disgrace. The rumors now being reported are that this was over Pliny the Younger. The anonymous complainant was rumored to be a competing bar that didn't get any. The ones that got raided got 12 kegs.
Click to expand...

seriously? Sounds like a bunch of 8 year olds
 
SteveM said:
Here is the latest on this disgrace. The rumors now being reported are that this was over Pliny the Younger. The anonymous complainant was rumored to be a competing bar that didn't get any. The ones that got raided got 12 kegs.
Click to expand...

So, in the end, the PALCB comes out looking like complete fools with an utterly ridiculous list that they can't even keep straight, and the bar owners in Philly look like a bunch of whiny children. I love my state.
 
This sounds like another case of the government getting a one sided story from one special interest. What should have happened at the most was they should have paid a fine. The gov't is really out of touch with the majority and trying to please every little person that they hear from.

Some shmucks recently complained about The USS Constitution firing her cannon at sun down. I am glad they were not listened to and she still fires at sundown. The majority needs to be heard not a couple of selfish wackos.
 
Wow, I'd like to see the posts that were deleted on account of being too political, because this whole thread has turned into a rant that uses the actual raids as a Rorschach blot that folks are just imposing their political views on. Apparently PLCB will be running federal healthcare, OSHA is a mistake because we used to be "free" to breathe asbestos at work, etc.

The raids are as stupid as can be, but let's keep it real here...
 
SteveM said:
Here is the latest on this disgrace. The rumors now being reported are that this was over Pliny the Younger. The anonymous complainant was rumored to be a competing bar that didn't get any. The ones that got raided got 12 kegs.
Click to expand...

That was exactly my first impression. It had to be another bar owner that turned them in.
 
SteveM said:
Here is the latest on this disgrace. The rumors now being reported are that this was over Pliny the Younger. The anonymous complainant was rumored to be a competing bar that didn't get any. The ones that got raided got 12 kegs.
Click to expand...

Were'd you see this reported?
 
Wow, this is an extremely complicated issue and for one thing really brings forth the inadequate system of cataloging beer brands. I have been in the chemical industry for over 30 years and have sold thousands of private label brand chemicals to wholesale distribution and retail. Every product family (same prd. but different sizes makes a family - for beer 12,16,32,keg, cask, etc. needs to be registered in each state it is sold in. Every nick name of that product must be added to the registration and the product carries a number, in my case an EPA number, that identifies the registered seller and the product. So number 123-12345 would cover my registered group:
25# pH+, 15#pH+, 5#pH+ and the various names I have registered pH Up, Raise It, Alk Up, etc.
When they come and check my place (before they might seize the product) they write down my product names and check the number to make sure that name is under the reg.
Different states get different fees but the yearly fees for EACH product family is 50-250/yr. This pays the inspectors..

Sorry for the long journey, but the PLCB would have names and numbers also no? So if I owned a bar it would be my obligation to make sure the brews I was selling had the correct names as registered by the PLCB. You can't carry a beer without checking if it is registered. It seems that their arguement is that the police didn't do enough cross checking for 50% of the confiscated beer and if they had they would have found variants on the names and realized they were legal. What about the other 50%? There was some illegal beer there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for homebrew, I'm just stating the legal position here. The seller has an obligation to prove legality of their wares. If I get pulled over I have to show the police my license and registration and my MSDS and DOT sheets if I am carrying hazardous materials. Those names on those materials better match or I get my materials confiscated and a substantial fine/jail.

It seems like an inspector could have checked before the raid and just warned the owners to get labels and correct names but perhaps, unlike the EPA the PLCB doesn't have field inspectors and goes straight to the raiding step.
 
Netflyer if you go back and read the blogs about the registration process and list previously linked, you'll see that many of the assumptions you have about how it works, its accuracy & where the responsibility for validating registration aren't the case here.
 
brewt00l said:
Netflyer if you go back and read the blogs about the registration process and list previously linked, you'll see that many of the assumptions you have about how it works, its accuracy & where the responsibility for validating registration aren't the case here.
Click to expand...

If you had a brewpub, maybe you do :), wouldn't you make sure all your beers were registered? And, wouldn't you make sure if you put their names up on a chalk or white board wouldn't you make sure you had the correct names? Regardless of exactly who is responsible for this? Because one could argue all day long about who is responsible for the names/regs meanwhile good beer is a wasting and that is a travesty right there.
 
In the end you're talking about chemicals/hazmat and CFR 49 if my memory serves me. We're talking about beer. It's not hazardous if a truck carrying beer were to flop over and beer was all over the road there wouldn't be a hazmat response. However if your truck was carrying a strong hydrochloric acid you bet they'd show up. Hell I remember from my DOT classes technically the PH of Coke deserves a Class 7 corrosive placard. As far as I know the TTB is worried about taxes not registration, that's just a way for the state to make additional money.

Side note I was in Maryland yesterday and bought a bottle of Boodles gin for $20 I checked the PLCB website and it's $40 and you must order a case of six. Can anyone tell me why the same gin is half the price across the state border? Wait I know the answer....because PLCB is full of ****.
 
Well, I was just trying to use DOT carriers as a similar experience and the outcome would be the same, 'COVER THY BEHIND' ... you don't need to have ALL the MSDS info on a truck but if you do it leads to less issues/questions. Don't you think having all the information at hand would have saved the confiscated beer?
 
Netflyer said:
Well, I was just trying to use DOT carriers as a similar experience and the outcome would be the same, 'COVER THY BEHIND' ... you don't need to have ALL the MSDS info on a truck but if you do it leads to less issues/questions. Don't you think having all the information at hand would have saved the confiscated beer?
Click to expand...


What does the fact that agents confiscated brands that were on the list due to confusion over label specifics tell you as it relates to your question above? Just take a few minutes to acquaint yourself with how the PLCB can been as convoluted and unreliable as possible by skimming some of the related posts here:

http://joesixpack.net/blog/
http://noplcb.blogspot.com/
http://www.beerscribe.com/
http://jackcurtin.com/ldo/?p=1489
 
brewt00l said:
What does the fact that agents confiscated brands that were on the list due to confusion over label specifics tell you as it relates to your question above?
Click to expand...

Amazing... well we could all wonder and wax poetically about the giant loop holes that allow the governing agencies to swoop down upon us in a legal manner, and it would be quite true. So then it is a no-win situation if you go by names. So, as a database geek I wonder, why not go by numbers? You could call Dude Geuse, Dood Juice, Doot Jooce, etc. as long as it had number 23-345-6789 on it.

I still go back to my original arguement of personal responsibility, or in this case corporate responsibility. Look at all the places now scrambling to make sure all their brands are registered. Their responsibility will prevent raids on their establishments, no?

I store hazmat in my yard, I have to have hazmat containers/placards/fire extinguishers, etc etc. Have I rec'd fines in the past, you bet. I tried to follow directions and just like in this case they came anyhow and found loop holes. Each time I attempt to shore up my defenses. Over the last 30 years we have kept up pretty well with only minor issues but those fines, etc. were all part of the cost of doing biz. At some point you have to make a decision, 'I realize the external environment may be corrupt, can my business exist in it? Can I go on?' If the answer is yes, you take infractions as a matter of fact, you cover your butt as best you can and hire people to become experts in those matters and do whatever it takes to continue your business.
 
Netflyer said:
I still go back to my original arguement of personal responsibility, or in this case corporate responsibility. Look at all the places now scrambling to make sure all their brands are registered. Their responsibility will prevent raids on their establishments, no?
Click to expand...

No...those "places" scrambling are breweries or master distributors (think wholesaler point of entry to the state) registering their brands so that tier 2 and 3 can continue to sell their product wholesale and retail, not the operators/owner of the retail part of this picture.
 
smokinghole said:
Side note I was in Maryland yesterday and bought a bottle of Boodles gin for $20 I checked the PLCB website and it's $40 and you must order a case of six. Can anyone tell me why the same gin is half the price across the state border? Wait I know the answer....because PLCB is full of ****.
Click to expand...

1) PLCB controls the entire liquor sales meaning they have no competition, therefore no reason to compete with lower pricing.

2)Even though the PLCB is one of the largest purchasers of liquor in the world it passes absolutely none of the potential purchasing power savings onto consumers, it instead charges more and reaps massive profit. It's as if Wal-Mart charged more than any other retailer even though it gets things for cheap.

3)Taxes. The Pa liquor tax is 18% + the 6% sales tax and you have a 24% mark-up from taxes alone.

So with the no competition, no savings passed onto consumers and high taxes you have the reason. :mug:
 

Similar threads

H
Adding Philly Sour, to reduce oxidation in storage.
Replies
5
Views
276
DuncB
D
Brushwood Brewing
Kegerator Issue - Compressor Constantly Running
Replies
21
Views
1K
Bobby_M
Bobby_M
Beernoob88
Adding fruit or flavoring to a sour beer...
Replies
6
Views
2K
Drewch
Drewch
A
Help with fermentation problem
Replies
10
Views
587
VikeMan
VikeMan
M
Infection after 2weeks in bottles?
2
Replies
67
Views
2K
IslandLizard
IslandLizard

Latest posts

Back
Top