Off-flavour in Pilsner - could it be the water?

[eestisiin]

How do you clean your kegs?

I have this occasional "soapy" taste that shows up in my beers. Odd thing: If I brew a 10g batch and split it between two fermentors (and kegs), many times only one of them has the off flavor!
So, the problem has nothing to do with the mash - not water, ingredients, hops. It's not the yeast because I dehydrate in water and mix and add to both fermentors from the same solution. I've made notes of the taste when going to the keg and it never has this flavor then.

I'm starting to wonder if a soapy taste is actually residue from a cleaning agent like starsan or oxyclean. Sorry if it seems I'm hijaaking your thread. Just relating a similar problem of my own in hopes it will illuminate a new idea in your head.

No no, def not hijacking the thread - only issue is that now im afraid of the next problem lol geez, cant go to test batch #6 lololo, but im willing to go as long as i finally get a clean tasting beer - not an issue with APAs, IPAs, Berliner weisse etc i have done, as they strong on flavour that the mistakes wont show, bt yeah for a summer id like to get a clean tasty refreshing beer ready...

I have used 2 different fermentors in my tests - 1 unpressurised bucket with airlock and 1 fermzilla under pressure - both have had off flavour
For kegs I do have 2 kegs, but I clean them with a oxyclean solution , rinse it until its not slippery anymore and then starsan into it - keep it there for few mins and pump it all out with pressure - so all should be clean right? or maybe its not - damn you , you have planted another issue in my head

Perhaps should clean kegs several days before racking so that they have time to try out or smht? but in the end still would need to rinse with starsan...

 

[McMullan]

I think if you want to make a Pilsner, an authetic lager yeast is where to start. But there's more, in terms of yeast, than just pitching an authentic lager yeast. I've been experimenting with Lallemand's Diamond Lager yeast. I wasn't too impressed with it until I repitched it. It's not an off flavour as such (unlike the kveik 'twang'), the beers just seemed slightly unbalanced for no apparent reason. However, repitching fresh Diamond slurry seems to ferment a nicer beer. Repitching fresh slurry means fermentation starts a lot sooner. In some cases, 2-3 days sooner. The repitched yeast are conditioned to ferment wort, rather than survive an industrial drying process, therefore they're under less stress. Nor is it necessarily a good idea to have wort sitting in an FV for days, waiting for fermentation to start. There are risks of contaminating microbes establishing above a threshold as well as risks of oxidation processes healthy yeast metabolism normally limits. In a characterically clean beer like a lager flaws are easier to notice.

 

[RM-MN]

10-15 in on a 60-75 min mash is still early, but I do get it that its important to get the pH down faster - will do it correctly next time - always a learning curve lol

Depending on how well the grain is milled, your mash period may be 60 to 90 minutes but conversion of starch to sugars may be done or nearly done well before that, perhaps in less than 10 minutes. That's why I suggested taking the pH at the usual time but not trying to adjust that batch, rather use that data to adjust the next batch before the mash starts.

 

[eestisiin]

Depending on how well the grain is milled, your mash period may be 60 to 90 minutes but conversion of starch to sugars may be done or nearly done well before that, perhaps in less than 10 minutes. That's why I suggested taking the pH at the usual time but not trying to adjust that batch, rather use that data to adjust the next batch before the mash starts.

Okay, I remember when I took the reading on this batch, it was around 6.2pH at 10min in at the mash temp of 67c, so yeah if it should be ideally below 5.4 then im FAR FAR off and this could probably screw me over. I already worked my store bought spring water into the brewfather and see the amount of 80% lactic acid I should add with the current grain bill

I now need to order my grains and yeast again - idk why but where I live we are out of saflager 34/70 for months now - grrrr....

PS! Here is the mash i used for the beer I use as "baseline"
60min@65c
15min@70c
10min@75c

Malts 3.72kg
Avangard Pilsner Malt 1.95kg
Simpsons Pale Ale Malt Extra - 1.59kg
Ireks Vienna Malt - 0.18kg

 

[Dland]

I now need to order my grains and yeast again - idk why but where I live we are out of saflager 34/70 for months now - grrrr....

Safelager S-189 works well for pilsners, if that is available. In some ways it is superior to 34/70 if you can keep primary fermentation temp down.

As for malt choice, 100% Weyerman or Dinglemans pilsner might be a good starting point. The higher end malts have plenty of flavor on their own.

 

[eestisiin]

Safelager S-189 works well for pilsners, if that is available. In some ways it is superior to 34/70 if you can keep primary fermentation temp down.

As for malt choice, 100% Weyerman or Dinglemans pilsner might be a good starting point. The higher end malts have plenty of flavor on their own.

Fresh out of Weyerman , but since I wanna keep the test for now clean - i wont substitute it

 

[hottpeper13]

I check pH at 10 min into mash and record. If it's not where I want it I change on the next brew. I don't use a program but a residual alkalinity work sheet from a Siebel course I took. If you know the RA,you can nail your pH. I always use RO water and after years of figuring it out with math,i can look at a grain bill and get within .2 of what I want. I have 5 recipes I do over and over and have those nailed down.
Pilsner malt mashed with RO or distilled will get a pH of 5.8 , so if your water has any buffering at all you will need to add an acid. I use acidulated malt.

 

[eestisiin]

Hey guys, thanks for all the help!

I just had a glass of my failed brew and I just had a glass of Pilsner Urquell before it and it has similar taste - but mine is more off-flavour/putting. And I think i read somewhere that some of the oversparge/pH cause off flavour (grainy/husky) that is welcome in some czech pils or am i remembering wrong?

Im just wondering if this gets me closer to you guys figuring out what is wrong with my beer

 

[VikeMan]

I just had a glass of my failed brew and I just had a glass of Pilsner Urquell before it and it has similar taste - but mine is more off-flavour/putting. And I think i read somewhere that some of the oversparge/pH cause off flavour (grainy/husky) that is welcome in some czech pils or am i remembering wrong?

The only off-flavor that's (sort of) welcome in a Czech Pils is Diacetyl; a buttery or sometimes caramely aroma/flavor. (Also, I've never though that Urquell tastes husk-y or has any issue that might be associated with pH.)

 

[eestisiin]

Hey, might be how the taste felt in the moment, I said similar taste not same and as I said mine was more off putting, but yeah you are right that diacetyl is the buttery flavour for Czech Pils

I don't see it being diacetyl - but just to be sure ill explain my fermentation just in case - for example last beer was at 14c for 12 days or so and at 17-18c for 2 days, why I kept it so short was due to the beer being under pressure as I wasnt too worried about the diacetyl

But if one could direct me to a better plan for fermentation, that be great - I have the opportunity to temp control and perhaps the error is mix and match somehow - fact is that my water chemistry is off and I will adjust it more on point from now on


..... anyways

https://learn.kegerator.com/off-flavors-in-beer/
Here it says regard the grainy/husky

• Approx. Flavor Threshold:​

  1-20 µg/l

• Importance:​

  Usually considered an off flavor, but certain styles, such as malt-forward lagers, may have perceptible low levels.

• Effect of Aging:​

  Tends to mellow with age.

• Caused By:​

  Most often caused by the isobutyraldehyde in malt, but other aldehydes can supply the grainy character. Higher levels of these compounds are found in freshly made malt which has not gone through an appropriate rest phase before use. This character can emerge due to malts being to finely crushed, mashing for too long a time, sparging with water at too hot a temperature, or oversparging.

How To Avoid/Control:​

• Ensure you don’t over crush your grain.
• If making your own malt, give it 2-8 weeks of rest before use.
• Don’t mash for more than 2 hours.
• Keep your sparge below 168°F and don’t collect wort below around 1.008 specific gravity.
• Cold conditioning a beer can help get rid of some of its graininess.

How To Practice:​

This is pretty recognizable to everyone. If you homebrew, you can brew a small batch of beer, purposely disregarding any of the avoidance steps above to get varying intensities of this grainy character.
Also, you can make a tea of over-crushed malt in boiling water. Once it has cooled, dose the basic practice setup with measured doses, compare with the control until you can perceive and identify the off-flavor. Don’t forget to write down how your perceptions change as the flavor gets more intense.
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