New Replacement for March Pump

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I have a funny feeling that if march was to offer a give away they would get flooded with emails due to all the people now watching this thread.
 
I especially like that March stainless pump head with the center inlet and the volute over a impeller design inside, it's the high price I can not come to terms with purchasing two of them.
 
You are correct with the "China" stuff kicking everyone between the legs.....what we buy our stainless castings for here in the US (and that is even before we do the final machining) is barely cheaper then what they are selling the complete Chugger pump heads for!!!

BrewBeemer, we do not have one here at March (yet ;) ) but we are curious about them...From the pictures they look like a direct copy (Reverse engineered) of our pump head. Its only a matter of time before the company decides on if they even want to check them out....more then likely they wont bother...there have two others that have done this in the past. Unfortunatly theres nothing we can do about someone copying us on this design. The pumps have been around for over 30+yrs now and patents only last for 17yrs..and they have long expired. We have made our name in the industry and are known for the quality. And i can proudly say that at least for the past two years while i have been filling in for our service guy that is out due to a bad motorcycle accident that i have "taken care of" many a brewmeister that has messed up their pump that would not normaly be covered under warranty and made them happy :D
I did notice the Chugger pumps only carry a 6 month warranty from date of purchase...ours carry a 1yr warranty from date of manufacture....We can only go by the serial numbers on the pump motor for that and some distributors may have old stock laying around. BUT if you return the warranty card that comes with the pump you can have the warranty start from date of installation and will be covered for 1yr from the day we get the card back here at March.
If anyone is "doubting" that i work for the company feel free to give me a call direct :D
800-323-0791 if the operator doesnt answer and you are put through to the automated system you can reach me on ext 28. :D

Cheers
-Walter
 
BrewBeemer said:
I especially like that March stainless pump head with the center inlet and the volute over a impeller design inside, it's the high price I can not come to terms with purchasing two of them.
Click to expand...

Understood...but keep in mind that you are not limited to purchasing them through any one source. We have distributors in almost every state. And if you happen to have an account with McMaster they can also get them. The list price on the 809-Stainless is $423 and most distributors sell them for cheaper. :D
 
CollinsBrew said:
It seemed to me that "Made in the USA" was the point he was trying to get across. While this may be beside the point, it's the reason China is kicking everyone's ace in manufacturing. They make it and ship it half way around the world for cheaper than we're willing to do it here. The sad part right now is that a lot of Americans just can't afford to buy American.
Click to expand...

Lets all remember that homebrewing is a hobby and not something that is required for daily living. If someone wishes to buy American they have that choice just as they do to spend the gobs of money we do for homebrewing in general.
 
Although the 809's are the most popular with the home-brew crowd, we have sold many of the 5.5S-MD pumps for the micro brew companys. And theres a few of our 7S pumps i know in one main stream supplier :D
 
What's the cost on just this stainless head cover? Do you sell them separately?

5492.jpg
 
Yes they are sold separately, better sit down....they have a list price of $240 and are part# 0809-0150-0000
As you can see we cant compete with the Chugger priceing on the Stainless pump....only thing i would say, is check what kind of stainless is being used on their parts. There are many grades of Stainless....some will rust depending on the amount of Nickle, Chromium, and Molybdenum mixed in the metal. Anything under the 304 doesnt have the best corrosion resistance....compared to a 316 anyway.
 
klyph said:
Shame that they're so pricy, I prefer the center inlet design, but not enough to pay the cost of 2.5 chuggers.
Click to expand...

I know, I know....thing is, its a family owned business and they are TRYING to not to go to China for anything....yet....but its getting harder and harder though with the priceing they are throwing out there. Just to give you guys an example....we are now pricing out to have our biggest molds redone. In the States the cheapest guy we have found thus far is quoting $60k for the work. For giggles we did have one company in China give us a quote and they want $25k!!! Tell me what company wouldnt go that route! But the owners here refuse to do it...we have had WAY too many problems with chineese material. We had some prototype motors we were testing here....as a matter of fact they were the same as the 809-HS motors.....the cheap steel they used caused the motors to constantly overheat and cut the thermal overload on and turn off the pumps! So we stayed with US Based company's.
 
Walter I must congratulate you for your openness and fast replies to this forum.
Agreed no way can any American company compete against Chinese labor, we pay in dollars they in pennies without pension or medical plans, had to toss that in.
March pumps I like that ball bearing motor this also allows it to be mounted vertical vs a sleeve motor that will strain the thrust washers more mounted vertical. I'm part of the club being stupid with dropping a plastic head March pump while doing a good cleaning job.
 
Scut_Monkey said:
Lets all remember that homebrewing is a hobby and not something that is required for daily living. If someone wishes to buy American they have that choice just as they do to spend the gobs of money we do for homebrewing in general.
Click to expand...


Exactly the reason I have to try and keep it inexpensive. It's a hobby that SWMBO already thinks I spend too much on and frankly, I think I do too but I love to do it. I'd absolutely love to have a rig that a bottomless wallet could buy and build but what's the fun in that?...kills the ingenuity.
 
CollinsBrew said:
Exactly the reason I have to try and keep it inexpensive. It's a hobby that SWMBO already thinks I spend too much on and frankly, I think I do too but I love to do it. I'd absolutely love to have a rig that a bottomless wallet could buy and build but what's the fun in that?...kills the ingenuity.
Click to expand...

True.

People just convey the message that it's a shame they HAD to buy a chinese manufactured pump because they couldn't afford the USA manufactured pump. If it was really that important to them they would have waited and saved more money for the Domestic pump or they could have purchased no pump at all.

I'm not jumping on my soap box, I went the inexpensive route as well. I just get frustrated when people play the victim for having to purchase non-American when it was something they didn't have to have to begin with.
 
What was with the "Walter" in quotes thing? I don't see anyone using other members names in quotes. Is that some sort of subtext I'm missing?

I don't see the advantage of stainless over polysulfone myself. I think alcohol will kill me long before polysulfone will. YMMV.

The Chugger looks like a good pump but at the price point there is no way it is made in North America. Consequently I don't have much interest. Unless someone puts their money where their mouth is we will continue to see our industrial base move off shore. Once again others are free to disagree and spend their hard earned dollars as they see fit. I'm not judging just stating a position...

Edit: Posted without seeing Scut's response. My post seems redundant now.
 
Pro American buy American what's more American than a Chebbie GMC truck made in Brazil?
This didn't happen overnight but sure puts the hurt on American companies and products.
Remember the 25% added tariff tax on Japanese imports hence the explosion of 4 door SUV's to get under this tariff?
Why not apply it again now?
 
BrewBeemer said:
Pro American buy American what's more American than a Chebbie GMC truck made in Brazil?
This didn't happen overnight but sure puts the hurt on American companies and products.
Click to expand...

Unfortunatly very true...its getting harder and harder to get american made product. We finid it hard to sometimes verify some of our supplies are truely american made! Take the motor mfg's for instance. We purchase Fasco motors for some of our small pumps. (like the 809 for instance) Luckly they are still made in Missouri and starting to be made in Mexico....and they will be completely moving the plant to Mexico in the VERY near future...if not allready!! :( So we are now now scrambling to find another vendor that makes them in 100% the US but hitting walls as most US based company's have production outside the US.
Now with the NAFTA agreement with mexico, the mexican made stuff can still be aprooved for the "American Made Energy Act" for alternative energy like wind, solar, biomass, and geothermal resources, hydropower, nuclear power technology and a few other i dont remember right now.....but the owners of the comapny feel that if you are requireing it be American made then the total product should be 100% american made not just 90% of it! But i guess something is better then nothing when trying to get the country rolling again! :)
Oh as a matter of fact i just went out to check our motor stock for the 809's and all the ones we have right now are "assembled in mexico" :( I do have one here in the service and repair dept that still have the "Made in America" Tag on it.....i think i better hold onto it :)

-Walter
 
Heck Delta compound miter saws 20 years ago made in America, assembled in the Philippines, 95 LandRover OEM replacement antenna in 2000 made in India.
Yes your company has a hard uphill battle to stay afloat and prosperous.
Best of luck keep fighting for what's right.

What has been done internally with the 315HF head vs the 315 head to allow 18' max head vs 12'?
This sounds like a large improvement for pushing thru long chiller coils having a lot of fluid resistance,
GPM isn't the problem it's the GPM under a high chiller flow resistance. Just had to ask as the 315 & 315HF are priced the same.
http://morebeer.com/view_product/11622//March_High_Temperature_Brewing_Pump_-_High_Flow
 
BrewBeemer said:
What has been done internally with the 315HF head vs the 315 head to allow 18' max head vs 12'?
This sounds like a large improvement for pushing thru long chiller coils having a lot of fluid resistance,
GPM isn't the problem it's the GPM under a high chiller flow resistance. Just had to ask as the 315 & 315HF are priced the same.
http://morebeer.com/view_product/11622//March_High_Temperature_Brewing_Pump_-_High_Flow
Click to expand...

to get that extra, all we did was use the impeller out of our 815 pump....its the biggest you can get to fit in the housing. :)

The beer pump models also come with a 6' cord with a plug on the end...our standard 809's only come with a 3' cord and no plug of any kind. Also the standard 809 does not have a mounting base unless you order it with one....the beer pumps come standard with the base...

-Walter
 
BrewBeemer, although you are getting 18' instead of 12' head you only gain an extra 2.6psi with that extra head pressure......assuming there is enough restriction in the system for the pump to actually generate the psi to begin with. :)

-Walter
 
klyph said:
Can you post the part number and price for the 815HF impeller? Will this fit the 809?
Click to expand...

Part number is 0809-0107-0200 and list price for them is $24 (as we do not sell direct i can only tell you what the list price is...the distributors usually sell them for cheaper then that)
Yes it will fit any of the 809 pump heads

-Walter
 
WalterAtMarchPump said:
BrewBeemer, although you are getting 18' instead of 12' head you only gain an extra 2.6psi with that extra head pressure......assuming there is enough restriction in the system for the pump to actually generate the psi to begin with. :)

-Walter
Click to expand...

Pumping thru a 30' to 50' 1/2" chiller coil the fluid friction adds up rather quickly was the reason for asking.
Now will the 815 HF impeller after installing into a 809 head increase the head from 12' to 18' without purchasing any more pump head parts?
This is a rather large head increase converting a sluggish flowing pump under the above conditions to one that a brewer can live with vs stepping up to a larger hp and higher head pump.$$$$$$$
 
BrewBeemer said:
Pumping thru a 30' to 50' 1/2" chiller coil the fluid friction adds up rather quickly was the reason for asking.
Now will the 315HF impeller after installing into a 315 head increase the head from 12' to 18' without purchasing any more pump head parts?
This is a rather large head increase converting a sluggish flowing pump under the above conditions to one that a brewer can live with vs stepping up to a larger hp and higher head pump.$$$$$$$
Click to expand...

1/2" line, the more you try and get through it the more restrictive it becomes....like any transfer line you try and use...simple physics. Not sure what the friction loss is of the piping/tubing in the chiller coil you are useing equates to, but to give you an idea this is what schedule 80 PVC pipe is like:

2gpm = .0672/foot of pipe
4gpm = .242/foot of pipe
6gpm = .512/ foot of pipe
8gpm = .869/ foot of pipe
10gpm = 1.32/foot of pipe

So if you are trying to get 2gpm through your chiller and you have 50' of line then (50'x.0672= 3.36) the pump is looking at 3.36' of head height restriction...then add any actual head height you have in your system. So if you have the motor on the floor, and your transfer tank is 4' above the motor, then add the 4' to the 3.36 and the pump is actually looking at 7.36' of head height its pumping against. So you would need to get a pump that can supply 2gpm at that 7.36' of head height. The 809-HS if you look at the flow curves it will do 3gpm at 8' of head height so through your chiller coils you should be getting a tad over 2gpm......assuming is just a straight 1/2 line with no elbows/filters/unions etc...that can cause any extra restriction :)

And yes you can install the impeller with no other issues......the ONLY thing about it is if you try and run the pump wide open...trying to get the full 8gpm out of the pump....you may de-couple the impeller from the drive magnet if the liquid has a heavier specific gravity then water...if you have restrciton in the line to choke the pump a tad then it should run like a champ...

-Walter
 
All good added bits of information Walter, thanks you must be a home brewer or one with an intrest in the hobby. I must add every fitting, 90 or other turn adds way more flow resistance than any length of pipe or tubing.
Most male 1/2" NPT to barb fittings have a highly reduced cross section unless one installs a 5/8" stainless barb with the full 1/2" ID. Any one pump loop with four to six restrictive barbs will cut the March pump flow down quite a lot unless all 1/2" ID is thru out the system loop.
The March flow numbers must use water as 1.00 SG not the thicker product in brewing tranfers, that alone would reduce the GPM flow numbers a small percentage. Me being lazy and not able to sit very long with looking up March, is there a 1/12 center inlet pump w/stainless head mag drive for one to step up in flow and head available? I do like the end volute design vs impeller much better.
 
Yes all our pump rates are based on water. On the bigger pumps we can compensate for thicker fluids by trimming the diameter of the impeller to take the stress loads off the mag-drive.
The only 1/12hp pumps we have are the series 4 and the 320 pumps. The 320 is strictly plastic (No stainless) And normaly the series 4 pump does not come in a stainless version. But heres where calling us to ask becomes a benefit. The series 4 and 5 pumps are the exact same pumps other then motors and impellers. If you wanted a pump with a 1/12hp motor and stainless head we can put one together for you...the 1/12 motor can not turn a stainless impeller that normaly comes in the series 5 stanless pump....so we keep the polypro or kynar impeller in there when its for a pressure application or when the customer has rigid plumbing putting stress on the joints. Depending on what temp you run the system at it may or may not have issues with the plastic impeller in there, during normal opperation the impeller tends to run a bit hotter on the back side due to the eddy currents. Thats why we have some conservative temp ratings on our pumps. Normal Polypro pumping water should be able to withstand short temp exposure of 215-220*F before damage occurs....but you didnt hear that from me and i will deny ever saying it! ;) :D
The problem with setting up the pump in this fashion is that it gets expensive for the hobbiest. That pump setup would have a list price in the neighborhood of about $775....still cheaper then the series 5 pump in FULL stainless that has a list price of $1324.


The 320 pump is a high pressure low volume design...it will max out at 3.3gpm but has a max head height of 40' which equates to about 17psi. Unfortunatly that pump only comes in the polypro....we can make it in a delrin plastic that can take higher temps but they only well sell them in volume applications to either a distributor that wants to stock them or to OEM's
And that 320 has a list price of $289
 
BrewBeemer said:
All good added bits of information Walter, thanks you must be a home brewer or one with an intrest in the hobby.
Click to expand...

I actually do not brew...though i have thought about it just never took the plunge yet. I do have a 2-3 friends that do it occasionaly. And like i mentioned in the begining i usualy get a few calls per week from home brewers either starting out in the hobby or upgrading to larger scale :D
I personaly am more into high performance offshore boats....and beer and boating do go hand in hand....just not while driving! :D
 
Walter,
i've always mentioned in general as well on this forum a good practice when using any low powered pump be it magnetic or centrifugal to take the manufactures performance specs and divide them in half. This way one can always throttle down if needed. Manufactures rate flow specs at the best possible conditions this does not apply in real life as nothing is worse than a underpowered pump system resulting with a sluggish whirlpool or liquid transfer.
Your opinions on this 50% pump rule rating for a successful system of long tubing runs having many fittings with directional and elevation changes.
Feel free to critque and comment on my above mentioned statements.
 
guys i'm looking into the ss chugger. the only thing that i will be using it for is to pump from my liquor tun up to my mash tun which is about 4-6 feet above the liquor tun. i can then use gravity to push it down to the boil pot. my question is, will it make it up that far and not take forever, and enough to be worth the $100, or should i just use gravity as well for that?
 
BrewBeemer said:
Walter,
i've always mentioned in general as well on this forum a good practice when using any low powered pump be it magnetic or centrifugal to take the manufactures performance specs and divide them in half. This way one can always throttle down if needed. Manufactures rate flow specs at the best possible conditions this does not apply in real life as nothing is worse than a underpowered pump system resulting with a sluggish whirlpool or liquid transfer.
Your opinions on this 50% pump rule rating for a successful system of long tubing runs having many fittings with directional and elevation changes.
Feel free to critque and comment on my above mentioned statements.
Click to expand...

Not sure what exactly you want me to comment on:
Yes I agree that we do rate the pumps at ideal conditions....but we also recommend these conditions for proper operation! :D For the 809 pump that requires a 1/2" ID in/out lines.
And I also do agree that with a centrifugal pump its better to be over sized then under as yes you can choke the pumps down for less flow.
Many people never take into consideration the total restriction of the system...all the elbows/filters/line size/flow meters/valves/line length when specking out a pump. They just need a pump to deliver so many gpm from point A to point B and then get angry when it falls short. I get a few of those every so often as well. Luckily we do have a decent distributor network that for the most part know how to spec out pumps :D


Oh and I just got off the phone with one of our regional sales guys out on the east coast. He has got a chugger and is sending it to us here to have a look at it. Here's what he told us so far about the pump:

***************

I got a "chugger" today, It resembles the 809 to the letter, but it is not the same quality. The threads on one side were flat and the hole off centered. The other threads were sharp but the casting quality must be poor due to the teeth of the threads having bits missing....I suspect possibly from air pockets in the mix or maybe bad machining, don't know. The rear housing is noticeably thinner then ours, and I suspect it wouldn’t take too much pressure to break it. Its also magnetic which can possibly cause eddy currents and interfere with the magnetic coupling. The impeller wobbled on the shaft when I spun it by hand!! Either a bad molding process or if they are drilling after the fact then the fixture must be slightly off. The motor does not appear to be UL listed but the cord is. I ran the motor for 25 minutes with the pump head off and the motor did not get too hot or burn up but wonder if its rated for continuous duty?? And what the life expectancy of the motor is. It is not listed who the manufacturer of the motor is. When the pump ran, it was louder than our 809 because of the wobbling impeller noise and the motor fan noise. With our 809 you only hear the motor due to the fan. Maybe Hans or Walter can hook the pump up in the lab and put it through the "March Torture Test" to see how it compares. I don't know how long the pump will last if continuously run or used in different applications, but I don’t see how you can go wrong if you’re a beer consumer paying $99.

**********************



So there ya have it...until it arrives here at the home office all I can say is do your homework when making your purchase. The only thing that does concern me is the motor not having any type of listing with any kind of agency (UL, CSA,CE)...Or for that matter who actually made the motor to begin with! If there is a problem, and it causes a fire, electrical shock, or other damage...who do you hold accountable? Keep in mind the lowest cost product (especially an electrical one)...is not always the best choice to bring into your home...

-Walter
 
dmbGator said:
guys i'm looking into the ss chugger. the only thing that i will be using it for is to pump from my liquor tun up to my mash tun which is about 4-6 feet above the liquor tun. i can then use gravity to push it down to the boil pot. my question is, will it make it up that far and not take forever, and enough to be worth the $100, or should i just use gravity as well for that?
Click to expand...

Hard to say since the chugger doesnt have a flow curve to see what it can do....but if you were to just draw a straight line from its 14ft max head height down to the 6gpm full flow point, then if you were running the pump and trying to pump up to 6' max head useing a 1/2" line then you "should" be able to see around 3-3.5gpm or so......if you are only going up 4' then you "should" see 4-4.5gpm out of it.....but thats only guessing....like i said theres no flow curve to show what the pump can actually do as far as i know...and you still have to factor in any "extras" you have have in the system like elbows/fittings etc...

-Walter
 
dmbGator said:
guys i'm looking into the ss chugger. the only thing that i will be using it for is to pump from my liquor tun up to my mash tun which is about 4-6 feet above the liquor tun. i can then use gravity to push it down to the boil pot. my question is, will it make it up that far and not take forever, and enough to be worth the $100, or should i just use gravity as well for that?
Click to expand...

Yeah, the chugger will do that, no problem.
 
first sorry there is no caps, i am remoted in from work to my home pc and its a pain to get the caps on and off. second, i like that walter is on here defending his product but not putting down the competition, so walter, can you sell me on your product, this one in particular: h315hf. i have some concerns about the product (actually all pumps in general) and being able push the 170 some degree water from my liquor tun to my mash tun, since the reviews that ive seen on pumps are extremely mixed, lots of complaints and lots of works great. all i need it for is this procedure, but like i said it needs to go about 4 to 6 feet up, there will be no elbow fittings and such right now as i am just going to have some correctly rated tubing carrying the water up to the mash.
 
dmbGator said:
first sorry there is no caps, i am remoted in from work to my home pc and its a pain to get the caps on and off. second, i like that walter is on here defending his product but not putting down the competition, so walter, can you sell me on your product, this one in particular: h315hf. i have some concerns about the product (actually all pumps in general) and being able push the 170 some degree water from my liquor tun to my mash tun, since the reviews that ive seen on pumps are extremely mixed, lots of complaints and lots of works great. all i need it for is this procedure, but like i said it needs to go about 4 to 6 feet up, there will be no elbow fittings and such right now as i am just going to have some correctly rated tubing carrying the water up to the mash.
Click to expand...

Would be nice, but if they have a distributor network I would guess no. The distributors work to get his product out and he may well have an agreement NOT to undermine them.
 

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