NB's Cascade Mountains West Coast Imperial IPA - Green, Infected or Bad?

[Skep18]

I'm looking for anyone else who has brewed Northern Brewer's Cascade Mountains West Coast Imperial IPA recipe and can comment as to the flavor profile or flavor thoughts about this recipe. This one thus far has not turned out to taste good IMO.

I brewed this on New Year's day, secondary'ed after three weeks and dry hopped for a week before kegging. It's been on tap for a few weeks now and is 54 days old today.

I don't want to rule out infection (though I doubt it) but given there are 10oz of hops in this kit, I would think that flavor should at least be present in a form resembling something somewhat good tasting regardless of other contributing effects or issues.

In trying to capture what I am experiencing the best I can (forgive me as I am no judge):

• A - Color came out like recipe photo showed. Despite chilling out in my garage in the winter for four days or so, this beer did not clear out. Very cloudy. I did swish in the dry hops a few days after adding them which may have in retrospect been a bad idea...
• S - It smells like what I would imagine brewing with table sugar or bad extract would taste like, like some open gel air freshener or something, the purple scent.
• T - It tastes like juicy fruit on the front end which finishes off with this robitussin-like twinge on the back end. I can't tell if this twinge is the beer's bitterness from the included hops or what.
• M - It has some body, maybe a bit more than my normal IPA's. It's hard to really say about this as the flavor is so distracting...

Is it possible this beer is still 'green'? If nothing did go wrong, the hop combination to me tastes completely unbalanced or maybe just too young. Needless to say I am going to just leave it alone for a bit and wait and see how it goes.

I have been brewing for going on two years and have generally not had any issues and have gotten a pretty consistent process down to my brewing. Temps were maintained between 65-68*F. This kit and ingredients were not store appreciably long after receiving them from NB. Unfortunately, I did not take an OG/FG reading as I honestly have just stopped bothering with this in my normal process. Knowing content or exactly when I can keg the beer is not a biggie to me anymore.

This was actually the first kit my friends and I made which we bottle conditioned. I should have known, but it was bad to all of us that time but we just thought we had an infection. (Noob thoughts, I know)

Thanks in advanced for responses.

 

[Skep18]

Sorry, here are the hops added for reference:

- 1 oz Summit (FWH - add to kettle along with steeping grains. Total boil time is 60 minutes)
- 1/2 oz Summit (30 min)
- 2 oz Cascade (20 min)
- 2 oz Cascade (0 min)
- 1/2 oz Summit (0 min)
- 4 oz Cascade (Dry Hop)

And Malts:

- 3.15 lbs Gold LME (60 min)
- 6 lbs Gold LME (15 min)
- 2 lbs Corn Sugar (5 min)

Used Wyeast 1272 (American Ale II)

 

[blackbeer]

20% corn sugar would make for a cidery/winey beer in my experience.

 

[ong]

Did you make a starter, or was the yeast (1 package?) just pitched directly into the wort?

I certainly don't think it's "green." I'm sure the huge corn sugar addition didn't help (that sounds like way too much to me, too), but it also sounds like maybe not a great fermentation.

 

[Skep18]

Thanks. Idk how much I thought of corn sugar but for some reason that sounds like it might make sense.

I always make a 1L starter. I keep a few main strains in hand in the refrigerator which I harvest from previous starters.

Had a bit more tonight. It's tough to finish one glass. I have hopes it mellows with time. Feel free to inform me if I'm wasting space, time and energy.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Skep18]

Looking at the description of Summit hops, maybe that's what I have an aversion towards... Per NB:

Typical alpha: 17.0-19.0%. Super-high alpha dwarf variety grown on low trellis systems in the Yakima valley. It has a low cohumulone content with a with funky, earthy, tangerine character.

Per hop union...

Distinct spice, earthy, onion, garlic and citrus (pink grapefruit, orange and tangerine) tones

Something about "funky" and "onion, garlic" rings true to this one I think... I'm somewhat disappointed as I want to like it for obvious reasons (5 gallons) as well as I generally don't have a picky pallet but this one is tough... Hopefully this mellows with time some.

 

[solbes]

This sounds like a stressed fermentation to me. A 1L starter for a 1.086 Target OG beer is small IMHO. I would have made a 3.5L starter, or even pitched half of a yeast cake from a previous batch. Other fermentation deets, did you aerate the wort well or shake it up for a couple of minutes? What was your pitching temp? The fact that it was still really cloudy after 4 days of cold crashing tells me it probably had a tougher time fermenting and was still in cleanup mode.

That said I bet it improves with a further cold conditioning. Is it still cloudy in the keg? If so I'd try to leave it alone for another week or two and see if it improves.

 

[Skep18]

This sounds like a stressed fermentation to me. A 1L starter for a 1.086 Target OG beer is small IMHO. I would have made a 3.5L starter, or even pitched half of a yeast cake from a previous batch. Other fermentation deets, did you aerate the wort well or shake it up for a couple of minutes? What was your pitching temp? The fact that it was still really cloudy after 4 days of cold crashing tells me it probably had a tougher time fermenting and was still in cleanup mode.

That said I bet it improves with a further cold conditioning. Is it still cloudy in the keg? If so I'd try to leave it alone for another week or two and see if it improves.

Thanks for the response. I use a stirring tool and a power drill to aerate for a few minutes after it's transferred to the carboy. I also use Wyeast yeast nutrition FWIW.

I've made probably 5 or 6 other big beers like this with similar strains, temps, etc without issues but I guess each fermentation is different.

Pitch temp was at least 68*F if not colder. I usually pitch a bit cool and have to heat up my bath actually to the desired temp once the whole system reaches a final temperature.

It's been in a keg for a few weeks and still appears cloudy (just like the Northern Brewer photo) but given the dip tube is so low in the keg, I don't know truely how clear the beer is whether my cloudy is sucking up fallout material or if it is truely cloudy. However, when I pour a couple servings it doesn't clear up like most other beers do.

 

[Skep18]

FWIW, I think the beer is starting to get a bit better. While I think the Summit hops did contribute much of the astringency in the flavor which cut through the pallet, the sort of off flavor is something I recognize from my previous batches using corn sugar. I will come back later and follow-up but my guess is this will be an OK beer I probably won't get again.

It's a shame a $50 recipe kit can be a disappointment over something like the use of corn sugar...

 

[PeteNMA]

Plenty of decent commercial beers use corn sugar with no negative effects. Particularly West Coast IPAs where the goal is to add gravity without adding more malt to dry out the beer. Pliny the Younger/Elder for example.

Your second post stated that you added the FWH addition along with the steeping grains. You didn't boil the grains did you?

Typically with extract and steeping grains you would steep the grains, remove them, add a portion of the extract then add the FWH addition then start the boil.

 

[Skep18]

Plenty of decent commercial beers use corn sugar with no negative effects. Particularly West Coast IPAs where the goal is to add gravity without adding more malt to dry out the beer. Pliny the Younger/Elder for example.

Your second post stated that you added the FWH addition along with the steeping grains. You didn't boil the grains did you?

Typically with extract and steeping grains you would steep the grains, remove them, add a portion of the extract then add the FWH addition then start the boil.

Per instructions, grains are only steeped @ <170*F for a maximum of 20mins. Grains don't get boiled.

Is there even a recipe out there that calls to boil the grains, extract or AG? lol.

Forgive me as I took many of these elementary things to be understood but I will clarify nonetheless should it help.

With regard to corn sugar being in commercial brews, it may very well be. I'd be interested to see the ones adding 20% corn sugar should you know them off hand.

While the concept of this is as with many things in brewing, yes it adds numbers to the recipe on paper but everything has more contributions than what's only on paper. It adds ABV but also will add some flavor.

 

[PeteNMA]

I am very familiar with the use of steeping grains. You wrote "1 oz Summit (FWH - add to kettle along with steeping grains. Total boil time is 60 minutes)" which implies that you may have boiled them which would certainly account for an astringent flavour.

You can check out multiple recipes (eg see this one for Pliny the Elder http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/08/pliny-elder-clone-30.html?m=1) which include 20% of the fermentable sugars from a dextrose addition and is derived directly from information from Vinnie at Russian River.

The corn sugar is if anything more important for the WC IPA when brewing with extract as a big hoppy beer which finished at 1.020 which it would when brewed with LME alone is going to be far too sweet to get out of the way of the hops. The addition of the corn sugar should drop your FG to the low teens if not down to 1.010. Any chance you could take a FG reading from a degassed and warmed sample and let us know where it finished?

Large additions of corn sugar needn't contribute a cider-like off flavour, you need to make sure that you pitch an adequate starter and for an OG that high probably into wort that has had a shot of pure O2.

Running your starter through a calculator suggests that assuming you had an absolutely brand new smack pack of yeast and used a stir plate you'd have pitched about 238bn cells against a predicted requirement of 300bn cells.

Adjust this down somewhat by assuming a two month old yeast pack and that gets you to 200bn cells which on a beer that big is a serious underpitch which will lead to the flavours you are describing

Out of interest, did you get a new smack pack with the kit or did you use yeast from your bank? I got bitten by an infection a year or so ago which made the beer come out tasting like cough syrup, a bit of testing narrowed it down to a banked yeast sample which must have picked up a foreign organism from somewhere. Just a thought.

Add to that what I assume is your ambient ferment temperature (you don't say) of 65-68F, meaning that you actual ferment temp likely hit 73-74F at its peak and you have another source of the off flavours you are describing. A big beer like that really needs a cool pitch and wort temperature controlled to the mid to low sixties with typical American ale strains.

There is a lot of writing from the above mentioned Bertus, folks like The Mad Fermentationist and other of the more scientifically focused guys like Kai which is very helpful when nailing this style of beer.

 

[Spinout]

I just bottled this beer 3 days ago.....and now I'm thinking it's gonna suck just based off the hop description. I made a 3qt starter, hopefully I don't have a yeast count issue. I did have concerns about the amount of sugar in the recipe, but was assured it was fine.
I also fermented in the fast ferment, I'm still having some issues with it not sealing properly. So if this does suck for me, I guess I can split the blame between equipment, hops, and sugar addition......cause it certainly can't be any fault of mine, right

 

[Skep18]

I am very familiar with the use of steeping grains. You wrote "1 oz Summit (FWH - add to kettle along with steeping grains. Total boil time is 60 minutes)" which implies that you may have boiled them which would certainly account for an astringent flavour.

The second post was a straight copy/paste from the NB recipe page. That's just how they write it up I guess.

You can check out multiple recipes (eg see this one for Pliny the Elder http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/08/pliny-elder-clone-30.html?m=1) which include 20% of the fermentable sugars from a dextrose addition and is derived directly from information from Vinnie at Russian River.

The corn sugar is if anything more important for the WC IPA when brewing with extract as a big hoppy beer which finished at 1.020 which it would when brewed with LME alone is going to be far too sweet to get out of the way of the hops. The addition of the corn sugar should drop your FG to the low teens if not down to 1.010. Any chance you could take a FG reading from a degassed and warmed sample and let us know where it finished?

I'll keep an eye out for a beer with higher amounts of corn sugar and see if it compares.

Large additions of corn sugar needn't contribute a cider-like off flavour, you need to make sure that you pitch an adequate starter and for an OG that high probably into wort that has had a shot of pure O2.

All I can say here is I have brewed quite a few similarly high gravity beers with my standard size starter without issues. I begin with a significant amount of yeast in my bank stores. I've often read about pitch rates and took it way serious back when I began but as I continue brewing I'm finding in my own personal experience my standard size has never let me down. I suppose there's always a first though.

Running your starter through a calculator suggests that assuming you had an absolutely brand new smack pack of yeast and used a stir plate you'd have pitched about 238bn cells against a predicted requirement of 300bn cells.

Adjust this down somewhat by assuming a two month old yeast pack and that gets you to 200bn cells which on a beer that big is a serious underpitch which will lead to the flavours you are describing

See notes above.

Given I use banked yeast, calculators really can't help me much.

Looking at the website below, I could see some of the effects the author described. Pitch rates may have been one of the issues here although I'd be surprised if it really accounted for all the flavors I am getting.

Pitching Rate Experiment &#8211; Results

Out of interest, did you get a new smack pack with the kit or did you use yeast from your bank? I got bitten by an infection a year or so ago which made the beer come out tasting like cough syrup, a bit of testing narrowed it down to a banked yeast sample which must have picked up a foreign organism from somewhere. Just a thought.

Yea, I used it from my bank. I keep a few common strains on-hand. I typically reserve the last bit of my starter (which I always cold crash and decant) to grow new starters from. They remain pretty fresh, maybe a couple months old but they always take off easily and grow a good bit.

Add to that what I assume is your ambient ferment temperature (you don't say) of 65-68F, meaning that you actual ferment temp likely hit 73-74F at its peak and you have another source of the off flavours you are describing. A big beer like that really needs a cool pitch and wort temperature controlled to the mid to low sixties with typical American ale strains.

I temperature control using liquid-to-liquid cooling in a little insulated chamber for each carboy. Doing this, I know my bath temperature is the same as my beer temperature once the system has reached steady state. I maintain the bath temps with frozen water bottles. It rarely fluctuates by more than a degree. I maintain this within 1*F for about a week. After that I let it rest but it rises only about 1*F a day. It never really exceeds 70*F afterwards even left alone.

There is a lot of writing from the above mentioned Bertus, folks like The Mad Fermentationist and other of the more scientifically focused guys like Kai which is very helpful when nailing this style of beer.

As mentioned previously, this beer has gotten more drinkable. I think the main flavor contribution might have been the fast that I tasted it only a few days after transferring it off my dry hops and some of the Summit hop flavors. While the description of the Summit hops flavor profile remains subtly, the piercing flavors have really calmed down. While it's still not one of my favorites, it certainly has become drinkable.

I'm still not convinced this isn't supposed to be what it tastes like. As mentioned, I've not really ever had problems with getting recipe results with my process.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Skep18]

I just bottled this beer 3 days ago.....and now I'm thinking it's gonna suck just based off the hop description. I made a 3qt starter, hopefully I don't have a yeast count issue. I did have concerns about the amount of sugar in the recipe, but was assured it was fine.
I also fermented in the fast ferment, I'm still having some issues with it not sealing properly. So if this does suck for me, I guess I can split the blame between equipment, hops, and sugar addition......cause it certainly can't be any fault of mine, right

Heh, don't be too worried. As I've updated, it's really not that bad. I'm guessing this may just come down to my personal preference and taste buds. I think my initial reaction was to a very green beer.

I still suspect the corn sugar could have contributed to the flavor profile some but some might not think this is necessarily a bad thing. Maybe some people like the taste. To each their own.

I'm certainly not trying to discredit that I may have contributed to the flavors some but I could take fruit juice and put 10oz of hops in it and the hops should still have added to the beer. To say any errors an operator could have made could 100% overwhelm 100% of the flavor of the beer is a bit of a stretch IMHO.

As they always say, RAHAHB. Every result is a learning experience and in the end, you do have beer.

 

[PeteNMA]

No worries. I went and looked up the instructions at NB and saw that. Seems like a strange time for a FWH addition but who knows whether it really matters.

 

[JJ900]

I bought this a while ago and haven't had a chance to make it yet but will make it very soon so can chime in with tasting notes at some point. The Heady Nugs kit I made calls for 2 lbs of corn sugar and that turned out very well despite tasting a little too sweet when it was still green.

Any chance that the wyeast 1272 you used is equivalent to the danstar bry-97 dry yeast? That is the dry yeast option that NB recommends for this WC IIPA kit and I read that others who use it for other recipes complained it muted the hops as compared to e.g. US-05.