Natural carbonisation. Is it possible?

[CepasCepas]

Hello. I red a lot of threads about carbonisation with priming sugar and etc.
But I want to make sparkling cider as natural as I can(with no additions).

My question is:
1) Can I use honey instead of sugar? what about amounts?
2) Can I pour a little bit of natural pasteurised apple juice(still with sugar) to dry cider, as an addition of natural sugars for carbonisation? Can it work?
3) Is there are any other natural ways to get dry sparkling cider without adding sugar, tabs and other chemicals?

Thank you very much for sharing info

 

[Maylar]

You can use any fermentable sugar you want. There are calculators online that will tell you how much of the different sweeteners to use for the desired level of carbonation.

 

[bruteforce]

What is unnatural about adding sugar and letting the yeast carbonate the cider? Use any fermentable you like, just make sure you calculate how much CO2 you'll get out of it.

 

[ericbw]

There is no "natural" way to get carbonation other than adding sugar for the yeast to eat. When they eat the sugar, they produce CO2 and alcohol. When you seal the bottle, it keeps the CO2 dissolved in the liquid, and that is your carbonation.

Usually, the difference is between natural carbonation (using sugar and yeast to produce the CO2) versus artificial or forced carbonation (injecting CO2 into the liquid to make it bubbly). So any sugar that you add is natural carbonation.

Honey, sugar, malt extract, or maple syrup all work. I suppose agave syrup, sorghum, or molasses would also work. (Don't use molasses - yuck when it's fermented.)

You can definitely use more sweet juice. Just calculate how many grams of sugar you need to carbonate the batch, then look at the juice and see how many grams are in it. Calculate how much juice you need to get to the amount of sugar you need.

Does that make sense?

Depending on the flavor you're going for, you might add a considerable amount of juice (maybe as much as 1/2 the amount of dry cider) to get a sweeter cider. If you bottle it, you'll get carbonation from it, too.

READ THIS CAREFULLY!! If you add juice to sweeten and carb, the yeast will eat ALL of the sugar and make too much carbonation. It will explode the bottles unless you pasteurize the bottles.

If this is your first time doing this, ferment it dry, then calculate how much juice it takes to give you the right sugar. Add that juice, bottle, and let it carbonate. When you bottle, it is helpful to fill one plastic bottle (soda pop or even a water bottle if the lid seals well) and use that as a gauge for when it is carbonated. When it is hard as a rock, then you know that the rest of the bottles are carbonated.

REFRIGERATE as soon as it is carbonated.

One more tip - it is best to try to avoid getting oxygen into the cider once it is fermented, so don't stir it vigorously, and bottle slowly and calmly.

After it carbonates, I would leave it in the fridge for at least a week before drinking. A few weeks even better. But that week will help it mellow and absorb the carbonation. KEEP IT REFRIGERATED.

 

[landwaster]

I'm a bit of purist so we have primed with plain sugar syrup so it doesn't add any flavor. We have added 1cup of sugar per gallon. This produces a nice carbonation that doesn't need pasteurized if you use beer bottles. There are some issues with natural carbonation though:

1) The CO2 will come out of solution more quickly depending on how much you clarify your cider and how cleanly you're able to rack it (more stuff in your cider equals more CO2 coming out of solution). Our batch from last year has a tendency to overflow when you open a bottle.

2) The spent yeast in the bottom of the bottles can sometime give a yeasty taste to your cider. I'm guessing this is one of the reasons why champagne and other sparkling wines are "disgorged".

For both these reasons, we may do one batch with carbonization and one without.

 

[Jessiegaddy]

Ok how does CO2 come out of of solution in a sealed bottle? If a bottle of cider gushes when it is opened it is over carbonated from adding to much priming sugar. Most brewers don't pour the last bit of cider or beer out of the bottle so yeast doesn't get in the glass. I have cider that is over 2 years old and has the same level of carbonation it did after a month of conditioning in the bottles. The average amount of corn sugar used for priming is 5 ozs. by weight per 5 gallons of cider. Sediment in a bottle does create nucleation points but only as the liquid is poured into a glass.

 

[landwaster]

Wouldn't the sediment/nucleation points make a difference when you take off the cap and release the pressure? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the science.

Anyway we've done 3 years of cider, primed with the same amount of sugar, and only this last year have they overflowed after uncapping. The only thing I can think of that might be different is how much each batch has been naturally clarified from settling and racking.

 

[ericbw]

Wouldn't the sediment/nucleation points make a difference when you take off the cap and release the pressure? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the science.

Anyway we've done 3 years of cider, primed with the same amount of sugar, and only this last year have they overflowed after uncapping. The only thing I can think of that might be different is how much each batch has been naturally clarified from settling and racking.

I think if you overflow, it is from too much sugar being eaten in the bottle (creating more CO2 than you wanted). There could be other factors, like temperature (warm will foam more).

It will provide nucleation sites, but most if it is compacted.

My GUESS is that your cider wasn't done fermenting when you bottled OR there was too much sugar added - either way, more sugar than you wanted makes more carbonation.

Any bottle conditioned beer or cider will have sediment, unless you do it like they do champagne. I think for crystal clear cider, you would need to do it that way if you want to bottle carb. I think the general thought is that if you like naturally bottle carbed beer or cider, you have to live with the sediment.

 

[Jessiegaddy]

CO2 is more readily dissolved and stays in suspension longer in a cold liquid. The cold also compacts any yeast or particles in the liquid. Nucleation of the liquid occurs when the liquid is poured from the bottle to release the gas in suspension. Opening of the bottle only releases pressure in the head space. A warm liquid will allow dissolved CO2 to escape almost all at once causing the gushing of the liquid from a bottle.

 

[ericbw]

CO2 is more readily dissolved and stays in suspension longer in a cold liquid. The cold also compacts any yeast or particles in the liquid. Nucleation of the liquid occurs when the liquid is poured from the bottle to release the gas in suspension. Opening of the bottle only releases pressure in the head space. A warm liquid will allow dissolved CO2 to escape almost all at once causing the gushing of the liquid from a bottle.

Sort of. A completely smooth vessel won't have nucleation sites. Most glass has tiny scratches or spots where the bubbles form. When you open a bottle, the bubbles form all around the bottle and rise to the top.

Compacted yeast does have a craggy surface, and the actual area at the bottom of a yeasty bottle is a greater surface area than a completely smooth bottle.

Temp is likely the biggest factor, along with too much CO2.

 

[Jessiegaddy]

There is no such thing as a completely smooth vessel. CO2 will come out of solution due to the pressure difference in the container and the surrounding air. If a forced carbonated beverage is bottled and then opened with no yeast or any particles in the bottle CO2 comes out of solution on its own. As a chef of 20+ years I have had many food and beverage classes with wineries and breweries all over the country and this very subject comes up every time. These meetings with brewers are the reason I started brewing in the first place over 15 years ago.

 

[ericbw]

There is no such thing as a completely smooth vessel. CO2 will come out of solution due to the pressure difference in the container and the surrounding air. If a forced carbonated beverage is bottled and then opened with no yeast or any particles in the bottle CO2 comes out of solution on its own. As a chef of 20+ years I have had many food and beverage classes with wineries and breweries all over the country and this very subject comes up every time. These meetings with brewers are the reason I started brewing in the first place over 15 years ago.

That's part of it, but it does need places where the bubbles can form (the combined gas & liquid separating into gas and liquid, with the gas floating to the top).

The gas doesn't all instantly come out of solution when the bottle is opened - that's why it feels fizzy in your mouth, because even with the pressure equalized, it retains some gas.

When it hits your bumpy tongue (more nucleation sites), the gas can begin to separate from the liquid. This happens at the same pressure.

You know the Mentos and Coke thing? Mentos are rough, so when they are dropped into an open, depressurized bottle of Coke, the gas separates all over the rough surface and spews out the top. The pressure in the bottle doesn't change in that case - the number of rough spots for bubbles to form is what changes.

 

[Don_Coyote]

Hello. I red a lot of threads about carbonisation with priming sugar and etc.
But I want to make sparkling cider as natural as I can(with no additions).

My question is:
3) Is there are any other natural ways to get dry sparkling cider without adding sugar, tabs and other chemicals?

You can (in order of increasing difficulty):
a)freeze some cider from the original batch, thaw and add the proper amount at bottling;
b)save some apples, press and add the proper amount of this cider at bottling; or
c)monitor the SG of the fermenting cider very closely, calculate how many points of fermentable sugar will give you the desired carbonation level, and bottle when it is at that point.

These are all more difficult than dumping in corn sugar, but more along the purist lines you seem to be looking for. C is not for the timid...

 

[Jessiegaddy]

Any gas dissolved in a liquid will come out of solution without nucleation sites simply because the two different pressures are trying to equalize. What do mentos and coke have to do with anything? The whole point was saying that sediment in a bottle conditioned beverage doesn't make CO2 come out of suspension. Just goes to show a little knowledge can be dangerous.

 

[ericbw]

Any gas dissolved in a liquid will come out of solution without nucleation sites simply because the two different pressures are trying to equalize. What do mentos and coke have to do with anything? The whole point was saying that sediment in a bottle conditioned beverage doesn't make CO2 come out of suspension. Just goes to show a little knowledge can be dangerous.

When you open a bottle of Coke, bubbles form and release the gas. After that, there is no change in pressure, yet bubbles continue to form. Why? Because of tiny spots where there is a difference in pressure, forcing the separation of gas and liquid. These spots are called nucleation sites.

If there is a bumpy surface, it allows CO2 to separate more easily. This is why the Mentos example is relevant.

If you open a bottle of Coke, the gas escapes. There is no other change in pressure, right? Yet a few minutes later (pressure equalized), you can tap it and see bubbles form. Or drop sand into it and see a lot of bubbles form. Or drop a rough Mentos into and see a lot of bubbles form. No change in pressure to make the gas escape, right? What is happening that makes it escape?

Have you seen glasses with etchings to make beer bubble continuously? Or seen a grain of rice in a beer to make it bubble continuously?

I'm not saying that sediment in beer will definitely make it foam, but you're dismissing it out of hand, which seems like a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.